--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00013 Date: 02/19/98 From: ROY WITT Time: 05:59am \/To: ROBERT VAUGHN (Read 0 times) Subj: Wheel torque On, 19 Feb 98 at 00:21, Robert Vaughn was overheard shouting over the engine noise, saying something to Ford Folks about "Wheel torque",: RV> We are approaching 500 on a Ranger odometer. RV> RV> Manual sez to torque the wheels at 500 miles and at 500 miles RV> after mounting a wheel. RV> RV> Called my friendly service dept today and heard 100 ftlbs. RV> RV> Seems a bit high to me. (Aluminum wheels and hope I don't have RV> to change a tire on the road) RV> RV> Any advice or just carry a long bar in case I have to take one RV> of those suckers off away from the garage? 100ftlbs isn't out of the question. The store where I buy tires, Super Shops, uses 80 ftlbs on my aluminum wheels. Either way, a normal wheel wrench will break them loose...even so, I carry a 1/2" breaker bar and socket for my wheels. ... 1998 Chevrolet pickups & LS1 Vortech's, what a combo. --- T(W)itt Filter Tossed v1.13 * Origin: Bow Tie Racers, Been there, WON that! (1:202/909.13) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00014 Date: 02/19/98 From: JOHN STEADMAN Time: 10:04am \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Brakes Hello Ron! In a message to Christopher Tarana <02/16/98> Ron Taylor wrote: RT> I suspect my warpage problem is due more to the trailer that any other RT> cause. Unfortunately it is one that I can't eliminate. CT> RT> Oh yeah... most of the mileage is pulling a 5x8 Wells Cargo utility RT> > RT> trailer, about 1500 lbs gw. DOes the trailer have brakes???? I know there are reguulations that cover trailers and brakes, if not you might consider them.. If it does have brakes make certain thhat they are operational where I work we have had trailer brakes quit working and that a heavy piece of towed equiptment try and push the towing vehicle through intersections.. Just a thought.. John * WCE 2.1G1/2275 * A handgun responds faster than 911 for crime problems. --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.40g * Origin: ViaMAIL! - The cost effective solution to mail! (1:138/229) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00015 Date: 02/19/98 From: ROY J. TELLASON Time: 03:52pm \/To: JAY EMRIE (Read 0 times) Subj: Vehicle Confiscation JAY EMRIE wrote in a message to ROY J. TELLASON: RJT>JAY EMRIE wrote in a message to MARK LOGSDON: RJT> JE> Secondly, why go to such a complicated procedure to check relay RJT> JE> coils, solenoids, and valve drivers (what ever valve drivers RJT> JE> are)? RJT> JE> A simple visual inspection will tell one whether the relay or RJT> JE> solenoid has picked or not and the same applies assuming valve RJT> JE> Is a mechanical vlave and not a vacuum tube. If not visible, RJT> JE> then a simple continuity check will do the job - when the RJT> JE> circuit is deactivated (voltage removed). In working on RJT> JE> computers and all ancillary equipment (which had scads and RJT> JE> scads of relays - ever look at an IBM 407 printer?) that is the RJT> JE> method we used with extremely accurate results for 28 years. RJT>I suspect that those methods may occasionally prove to be somewhat less RJT>tha RJT>ctical when the stuff you're wanting to check is in an industrial RJT>productio RJT>ironment... JE> Are you inferring that the equipment used in/with/by computers JE> in a business or industrial enviorment doesn't count? Nope. JE> It makes no difference what enviroment the equipment is being JE> used the fact remains that to properly check a relay the relay JE> coil MUST be removed from the circuit IF the relay cannot be JE> physically observed - production or not. IF the relay is not JE> working properly neither will the industrial production process JE> the relay controls! True. I only meant to comment that there would be times when visual inspection isn't as easy as it might be otherwise. The same would be true for removing power to do a continuity check. And while I don't mean to imply that you _can't_ do these things, they can sure as heck be real inconvenient in some situations. Also, regarding your comment about if the relay (or whatever) isn't working properly neither will the process involved, that's probably true as far as it goes, but when you do have a process that's not working right it can be a little difficult to trace down the exact cause of the problem. I've been around some of this stuff, and you wouldn't believe some of the dumb things that design engineers do when it comes to making equipment that's supposed to function in an industrial environment. There was, for one example, a machine that had all of the electronics in one _open_ card cage in the middle of the machine. That machine handled both mercury and small silver pellets (which created lots of conductive dust) for dental amalgam products. They also completely neglected diodes across relay coils to protect solid-state devices driving those relays. There was another one where the whole machine was controlled by a bunch of boards full of CMOS logic, and a bad power supply wiped out much of it. There was no crowbar circuit in place to prevent this from happening. That particular machine also had wire for one of the sensors (which turned out to be bad) routed _through_ a box containing live 440... Like I was saying, *dumb* stuff! email: roy.j.tellason%tanstaaf@frackit.com --- * Origin: TANSTAAFL BBS 717-432-0764 (1:270/615) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00016 Date: 02/18/98 From: MARC GERGES Time: 11:02pm \/To: ALAN MORRISON (Read 0 times) Subj: 225 hp Neon? Salut Alan! MG>>> It said Neon engine and drivetrain put in the back. AM>> OK, that would be the 4 Cylinder. 225 HP is probably stretching AM>> it a bit unless they plan on some sort of supercharging. MG>> Do they supercharge in the US? AM> Not the Neon, but it is being done by a few models by GM, and Ford has AM> fiddled with it a bit. Chrysler has had some turbocharged models but AM> I believe they were mostly Mitsubishi imports. Supercharging is very rare here... in the 70ies ans late 80ies many cars had turbocharging. They vanished after a couple of years and turbos were a diesel only feature for a long time... but the turbo charged gas engines come back at the moment... MG>> It's imho in this case a problem of a wrong market position. MG>> Chrysler measured the Neon and other cars and found out it's as MG>> long as those BMW 3, small Audi, Ford's, Opels etc. So they made MG>> it the same price. AM> You mean in the class above what it should have been, I suppose. Right. AM> It makes sense they are doing something wrong if it isn't selling. AM> It's actually a pretty sporty little car with an excellent power to AM> weight ratio, gets pretty good mileage, and is somewhat attractively AM> styled. I found the car attractive and nice to drive. Neither a super-luxo car nor a sports car, but a nice one to live with. But not for the price... MG>> Export is about $450 from harbour to harbour, marketing wasn't MG>> done, tariffs is 10%. IF they would've taken the US base price, MG>> add their real costs and a little extra bonus, the price would've MG>> been in the range of base Golf's or well equipped Polo's. AM> Marketing may be the biggest problem. It can be quite expensive to AM> run TV advertisements, which is one of the best way to introduce a AM> new model here. Is this the same there, or do Europeans watch much AM> television? If not, what would be the best way to gain some exposure? Car ads on TV are probably not the strongest point here, I guess it's more the articles in magazines that do the job... making it known by TV is fine (Daewoo had a wonderful campaign here a couple of years ago to introduce the company), but many people make a choice or even decision on magazines. cu .\\arc ... Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over. --- * Origin: sympathy for the debil (2:270/47) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00017 Date: 02/18/98 From: MARC GERGES Time: 11:07pm \/To: ALAN MORRISON (Read 0 times) Subj: Active Handling Salut Alan! AM>> Those family types got station wagons in the 60's, Volvos in the AM>> 70's, Minivans in the 80's, and now SUVs are coming on strong. MG>> I don't understand it... ok, minivans are fine if you really have MG>> a lot of people to carry. But SUV's are big, ugly, slow, MG>> uncomfortable and expensive. I wouldn't drive one if given for MG>> free... AM> If given one for free... I would sell it! That's what I'd do, too. :) AM> I don't care much for them either since they are big and often geared AM> like trucks, which combined can kill gas mileage. Don't care much AM> for the look of them either but I suspect the biggest buyers are AM> families that live in urban areas where some ground clearance and AM> occasional hauling/towing ability are a strong point. OTOH most cars have enough ground clearance to go everywhere a car should go. If you get stuck, it's normally a place you shouldn't have taken your car to. MG>>> To begin with, an FWD car is inherently stable on the road, not MG>>> like AM>> Hmm... I think if that were always true race cars would be FWD. MG>> Here they are, at least in the close-to-stock series. MG>> The FWD Peugeot 406 gave the BMW 3 series a serious run for the MG>> money in germany's last year touring car championship. And the MG>> BMW wasn't in front when the season ended. AM> We don't get any Peugeot's anymore although we used to. The cheap AM> Japanese models dumped on the market in the seventies killed other AM> imports first. By dumping, I mean the selling of cars below the AM> total cost to produce market and deliver it. They had success with it. I guess the french companies won't return to the US, nor will the Italians do. If you have to build a service organisation, sell your cars very cheap and live in the fear of multi-million $ legal actions from people that had an accident in your car, it's not a really attractive market. At least not for low volumes. AM> The Japanese would subsidize the unpaid costs to gain market share. AM> Today, they have mostly raised the prices to much higher levels, but AM> are now planning to do it again to attempt to corner the electric AM> vehicle market. The car mentioned will cost near $40,000 to produce AM> but will be subsidized down to near half that amount. Here there are some electric vehicles available, but mostly to big companies and governmental organisations. For the private buyer they're to expensive, to slow and have a limited range. AM>> But for me, the performance potential is somewhat lacking, upkeep AM>> is more expensive, it's harder to work on, etc... MG>> Upkeep isn't more expensive anymore. Most parts are stronger on MG>> fwd than on rwd in the last years. AM> Not true here... And the amount of work to replace a clutch on a FWD AM> is much more involved. How often do you replace a clutch...? Mine's 90000 miles old and still doing fine, although the car had some towing to do in its early years... clutches in most cases keep longer than the car. AM> The most common problem, CV maintenance is not required at all on RWD AM> models. The minute movements of U-joints allows them to last much AM> longer, they are much cheaper, and a snap to replace. Sure, there must be some advantage to RWD ;-) But in most cases, most of the expensive work isn't done on a car. Clutches, driveshafts, gearboxes etc. just are so strong they don't need to be fixed. MG>>> I rotate them every time I change from summer to winter tires. AM>> More upkeep. MG>> Hey, I have to change tires twice per year due to the wheather. MG>> It's not more upkeep to put last summer's front tires on the rear MG>> for this year. AM> I see what you're saying now. I guess some do that here in the AM> northern latitudes. I only need take mine to where I bought tires for AM> free rotation every 7,500 miles. Having two cars, I may only do this AM> once in a year. OK, that's a point, you don't need winter tires. Here most people have them, as it is a considerable safety advance. cu .\\arc ... Jury: A group chosen to decide who has the best lawyer. --- * Origin: sympathy for the debil (2:270/47) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00018 Date: 02/18/98 From: MARC GERGES Time: 11:18pm \/To: ROY WITT (Read 0 times) Subj: Active Handling Salut Roy! MG>> Imho anybody shouldn't drive beyond the limit. But there are MG>> situations when such things happen. Just imagine you have to MG>> avoid a deer on the road, this can bring you into big trouble. RW> Well, I'm one of those that drives at the limit more often than I RW> should, I guess. It's one of my vices that I get my jollies with. RW> Keep in mind that I never endanger anyone else on the road, I do my RW> "to the limit" driving on uncrowded roads. Sure... on the limit for most cars is mindbogglingly fast - you can't do it in a crowd. Without being at the limit, I often drive 80+ mph on country roads. RW> It does have one drawback, and that is I'm more critical of those who RW> can't drive. The ones that brake all the way through a curve or RW> drive 10mph under the speed limit, no matter how many cars are behind RW> them. (In this country, if you're blocking the flow of traffic, RW> you're supposed to pull over and let others pass)... You're supposed to do so, here too. But most people that should don't even notice they're blocking. MG>> That's the classic driving style: bring your car to the right MG>> speed and the right gear before the turn and drive through it MG>> with a firm foot on the gas pedal. Cars have developed. If I feel MG>> like braking, changing gears or whatever in a turn, I expect my MG>> car to cope with that. The only car I test drove that didn't was MG>> a Porsche 911 (this brought me into a lot of trouble when braking MG>> in a turn). RW> I'm told by my Porsche driving doctor that you can change gears in a RW> corner if need be. Make it quick and keep the throttle floored until RW> you regain control... Inherently unsafe operation. Tolerable for the experienced, skilled driver who knows what to do. I was in Mainz (200 miles from here) with my sister yesterday. She did the driving back home in the evening, and used to her 90 mph VW, enjoyed flirting with the 110 mark on the speedo. At about every highway exit she grossly overestimated the possible speed and consequently found herself way to fast in those tight exit turns. She braked, changed back and went on, without the car even showing signs of unstability. It just went where she pointed it and felt perfectly sure. I didn't, though, as I wanted to take a nap which was impossible with her driving style :-> cu .\\arc ... I am Bones of Borg. He's assimilated, Jim. --- * Origin: sympathy for the debil (2:270/47) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00019 Date: 02/18/98 From: MARC GERGES Time: 11:33pm \/To: ALAN MORRISON (Read 0 times) Subj: Buying imports Salut Alan! MG>> Harleys are an investment. As a 30 year one will be on the same MG>> technical level than a new one, it'll sell good. A 30 year old MG>> japan bike will be... just old. AM> It's parts by then. The Harley has undergone some substantial AM> redesigns in it's history. The 30 year old models were mostly cast AM> iron, which got a redesign in aluminum in the eighties. They are AM> always careful when making changes to retain the classic look and AM> sound that they are known for. That's why I don't like them for. They offer some Buell conversions here lately, with interesting looks and features. Pretty nice, but a riceburner for a third of the price will do everything better... AM>> why the Japanese makers finally gave-up competing in that market AM>> here and cloned the V-twin design. MG>> Here it works for them. AM> V-twins or fours? Everything. V's in cruisers, inline four's for the tourers and sport bikes, one cylinder engines for the off roaders, and they come strongly with high performance V twins in high performance sports bikes. AM> The extremely fast fours have a following here also of younger buyers AM> that want bragging rights on who's fastest. Some of these things are AM> much too fast for the brakes and abilities of many. Most bikes are way too fast, but I think that's probably what makes them interesting. A 20hp bike will be fast enough for every situation on public roads. But the 100hp more make it funny. AM> Before buying a Sportster I drove a Kawasaki 1000 LTD, which was one AM> of the fastest sold here at the time. On a back street I rolled on AM> the throttle and grabbed a couple of gears before realizing the street AM> was quickly getting short. Grabbing handfuls of brake and clutch AM> while repeatedly punching lower and lower gears, I made sufficient AM> deceleration to end the test-drive with brains intact. Using them, I AM> remembered that you tend to drive bikes harder the longer you have AM> them, so I decided to get something with braking and acceleration more AM> aligned. So, instead of better brakes, you got slower acceleration? :-) MG>>> Harleys are bought by doctors, lawyers etc. AM>> Yeah, too bad. You used to have grimy bikers on Hogs but AM>> nowadays it seems the owners take off their clean suits on AM>> weekends and put on clean leathers. MG>> Why not, if they like it. Others prefer Goldwings... AM> A nice touring bike for sure... I had one pass me on my long trip and AM> it was whisper quite. A friend has one, and I'm quite impressed with the technique... 6 cylinder boxer, air suspension etc... it's not a real bike, anymore. cu .\\arc ... Mode ist die Uniform der Zivilisten. --- * Origin: sympathy for the debil (2:270/47) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00020 Date: 02/19/98 From: KEITH SCUDDER Time: 09:50pm \/To: ROY WITT (Read 0 times) Subj: 1999 Cars RW> RW> KS>> At one time I had a 85' Regal with a 231 V6 and the 2BBL. carb. RW> RW> KS>> yet the Camaro's same size engine could run circles around the RW> RW> KS>> 85' model. Maybe it has something to do with the HP difference. RW> KS> RW> RW>> HP to weight ratio, carburated vs fuel injected, better ECU...ten RW> RW>> years made lot of difference in computerized cars. Todays' high RW> RW>> performance cars outperform the 60's muscle cars with less cubic RW> RW>> inches... RW> KS> RW> KS> I'm from the old school, I still like the rumble and the feel of just RW> KS> motoring around with a muscle car. I am well aware of what is going RW> KS> on with today's cars even though the government is leaning harder and RW> KS> harder to make a better mousetrap.... RW>I've got both. 70 Firebird Formula and 88 IROC-Z. There's a new item hat RW>recently coined by High Performance Chevrolet magazine called, "Pro-Touring" RW>What it means is, you take an old muscle car or a even a 3rd gen Camaro nd RW>build it for touring instead of Pro-Street. Build it to handle the curves a RW>even have a decent ride. Make the car handle as well as stop. That's een RW>idea of building a high-performance car for many years. I quit drag acing RW>the early 70's, concentrating on driving cars that can go around corners RW>without tipping over. And none of them was built anywhere else but the good RW>ole USA... I once had a 75' Firebird Formula with a 350 V-8, close enough? :) I didn't know they made a IROC-Z in 88', I knew they made a IROC tho. A "Pro-Touring" machine would be nice as most Musclecars didn't do too well when it came to turning at high speeds. What also stunk was the fact those Bucket seats didn't hold you in well either! :) I used to do some drag racing with my two cars, this thing called marriage brought that to an end. :( Didn't do much of it tho, got 5 trophys out of it while having a bunch of fun and no car broke down. Now where I live the garage is tiny, not like where I used to live, at that time it was a 2-car garage in the backyard. Keith................................................. --- * OLX 2.1 TD * E-mail address: kas@juno.com * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00021 Date: 02/19/98 From: ROBERT VAUGHN Time: 11:42pm \/To: ROY WITT (Read 0 times) Subj: Wheel torque RW> RV> RW> RV> Any advice or just carry a long bar in case I have to take one RW> RV> of those suckers off away from the garage? RW>100ftlbs isn't out of the question. The store where I buy RW>tires, Super Shops, uses 80 ftlbs on my aluminum wheels. Thanks, Roy. I watched 500 come up as I entered the driveway, haven't touched them yet. Thought I'd start at 50 and go up slowly to see what they are now then do them all at the highest. I'll go at least 80 after your experience. Bob V. --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: Pocket Lint * 610-363-2617 * (1:273/304) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F2P00022 Date: 02/19/98 From: TOM WALKER Time: 11:55am \/To: ROBERT VAUGHN (Read 0 times) Subj: Wheel torque -> We are approaching 500 on a Ranger odometer. -> -> Manual sez to torque the wheels at 500 miles and at 500 miles -> after mounting a wheel. -> -> Called my friendly service dept today and heard 100 ftlbs. -> -> Seems a bit high to me. (Aluminum wheels and hope I don't have -> to change a tire on the road) -> -> Any advice or just carry a long bar in case I have to take one -> of those suckers off away from the garage? IF you ever let the IDIOTS use a Rattle Wrench on your lug nuts that is a good idea. And 100 Ft Lbs is TO MUCH unless you are talking about a Full size PU or something like that. Most Mid size cars and small are listed in the 50 to 65 Ft Lb range. I suspect that might be the case for your Ranger also. Although "Mag" wheels might require other specs but I doubt it is 100 Ft Lbs.. --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: Jim's East County BBS! El Cajon, CA. (619) 561-8424 (1:202/100)