--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500000 Date: 01/04/98 From: PETER HARLE Time: 05:33pm \/To: BILL MITCHELL (Read 0 times) Subj: Electrical loads, battery -=> Quoting Bill Mitchell to Peter Harle <=- PH> As you say Alan, if it's an automatic it's all academic. PH> However most PH> automotive alternators have sufficient residual magnetic flux PH> (remanence) in the rotor to cause it to "self excite" without using PH> the extra current via the "warning light" circuit. BM> Maybe this is true someplace, but I've never known of an automobile BM> alternator that could charge a battery without getting an initial BM> exciting current from some outside source, usually that same battery. BM> This does not apply to motorcycle alternators, which usually use BM> permanent magnets instead of field coils. G'day Bill, See my reply to Mark Logsdon, re the comments from a Bosch Service/Repair Manual. That a side, it's very difficult to manufacture iron/steel to be used in a magnetic application that does not retain some residual magnetic flux (remanence) once magnetised. In order to reduce residual magnetism to zero, energy in the form a magnetic field in the reverse direction is required to completely eliminate it. Granted over time that residual field will decrease, but never to zero. If practical materials were available, they would be used in transformer cores to reduce iron losses due to hysteresis effect. Check out the BH curve for magnetic materials, the majority of practical magnetic materials exhibit hysteresis. Sure there are special alloys used for shielding etc., but economics prevent their use in anything but the most demanding application. EMAIL (Westinghouse) alternators as fitted to some model Fords (late 70 early 80s, 6 diode types) and using external vibrating reed regulators will produce around 2 amps output at around 2000 rpm (engine speed) with the regulator totally disconnected. That output is entirely due to residual magnetism. (I've used these units in experimental wind generators for that very reason). The only disadvantage is, if the residual magnetism is too high, the regulator wont be able to limit the output of the alternator, particularly at high engine speeds. Unless this output is able to be used, load voltage would rise with increasing engine/alternator speed and damage voltage sensitive equipment. This is one reason why some 24 volt alternators are fitted with over voltage protection devices, usually using SCRs in a "crowbar" type circuit. It's also another reason why the battery should not be disconnected while the engine is running. In a conventional petrol engine using a non EFI system and a contact points (Kettering) ignition system you will usually get away with removing the battery while the engine is at normal idle, simply because of the latters' loading effect on the alternator. But I would not do this to an EFI based system. Although it too presents sufficient load to the alternator, but variations in voltage could lead to erratic engine operation, hence the need for the battery to stabilize system voltage. It's a relatively simple matter to prove it for yourself, most alternators now feature an integral regulator within the brush gear. Removing one or two screws allows the removal of the regulator/brush unit. There is one internal wire which connects to the exciter diodes and one or two external connectors to the warning light circuit and a possible connection for carburetor solenoids etc. I would wrap the regulator/brush gear unit in a small plastic bag to avoid shorts. Then place an ammeter in series with output of the alternator and the battery, start the engine and observe that at some point there will be a current flow out of the alternator, in my case at 1500 rpm it produced 1 to 1.5 amp, entirely due to residual magnetism in the rotor. That's a standard Bosch, 14V 55A alternator, as fitted to Fords (at least here in Oz) Peter H. --- EzyBlueWave V1.20 01fb000b * Origin: Mt.Druitt TAFE +61-2-9839-1310 FidoNet (3:713/709) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500001 Date: 01/04/98 From: RONNIE THOMPSON Time: 11:26am \/To: BILL MITCHELL (Read 0 times) Subj: REVERSE QUESTION -=> Quoting Bill Mitchell to Ronnie Thompson <=- BM>> Get a 4 wheel drive, they have to exempt them because they BM>> can't be tested on the dyno. RT> Say what?? Where did you get this information, or should I RT> say MISinformation, from?? BM> No, where did you get your misinformation from. I live here, and I've BM> been through the tests. 4 wheel drive is exempt, they are allowing BM> volunteers to take the test and 4 wheel drive is prohibited from BM> taking the test. The reason given is that most 4 wheel drive vehicles BM> should not be tested on equipment that they are using, which only BM> allows one axle to spin. Well, now, you are changing what you said earlier. First you said a 4WD can't be tested on the dyno, and with your explanation you are saying they can't be tested on this particular one that they use, in your state. I know that 4WD's can be tested on dyno's, as my brother has a dyno and they do test 4WD's on it. BM> Yes, there are vehicles that have free wheeling hubs, but the majority BM> of the SUVs these days don't, and don't belong on the dyno they are BM> using. That includes the 3 jeeps I own. I feel like, IF the state is gonna be fair, they will have to invest some bucks in a dyno that ALL vehicles will be able to be checked with. If not, you'll end up having a lawsuit and the tests will be thrown out, as a part of inspections, for all vehicles, IMO. BM> Ever tow one with the front axle off the ground? Same reason you BM> cannot tow them by picking up the front wheels and tying the front BM> wheels. Even with the transfercase in neutral there's a strain on BM> them, which will cause them to spin while suspended. This part has nothing to do with the state not buying the proper equipment to test ALL vehicles with. Ronnie in NC ... Beware the half truth; you may have gotten the wrong half. --- AreaFix Fido MILITIA * Origin: Thor's Retreat/2 BBS Fayetteville, NC 910.424.0956 (1:3634/37) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500002 Date: 01/04/98 From: RONNIE THOMPSON Time: 11:35am \/To: JOHN RANGER (Read 0 times) Subj: ....walkin 'round IN WOME -=> Quoting John Ranger to Ronnie Thompson <=- ML> Perhaps it's not really supposed ML> to be a de-icer, though it does a very nice job of that on my car. RT> If memory serves me, in the owners manual on more than one vehicle, RT> it has said specifically to NOT use the defroster as a defogger. RT> Don't know why. I use it for that more than I use it for defrosting RT> the back window, but going by what the book says, it shouldn't be RT> used as a defogger. JR> I hope the weather down in the Carolinas is better suited to that than JR> here. For the most part, when we get the THREAT of snow, they will close the schools :) Every few years we get a good snow (6 inches plus) but not too often. Seems like there is an imaginary line that goes from Charlotte up to Raleigh (a sorta SW to NE line) and that seems to be the "snow line" most of the time. Same thing last week, they got it and all we got was cold rain. JR> Syracuse New york received up to 4" per hour the first day of the JR> storm that passed thru here. JR> The last total was 34" May have been the same storm that came thru here, I don't know. I know ours headed up North. If we got 34" here, I don't know what we'd do. We only have 2-3 scrapers, on a permanent basis, and some of the salt trucks put the plows on the front, but that would totally overwhelm our systems. We just don't put a lot of money into snow removal here, cause we hardly ever get much of it. JR> The only worry I didnt have with my car was that the engine was going JR> to be so cold that it would not turn over but finding the car. JR> I seized an engine once and never forgot that because it cost me and JR> my family months of $$$, pain and problems all to learn how to treat a JR> car in the cold of winter. I can understand that. JR> The people in colder parts of the country, Alaska and canada use JR> 120Vdc powered Block heaters and battery chargers directly installed JR> with plugs at the many places they stop at including churces, gas JR> stations, supermartkets and so on. Yep, if I lived in that type of climate, I'd have the block heater too. JR> What would happen if a small ceramic heater were placed in the car to JR> keep it warm if it had to be someplace where it just couldn't be moved JR> out of the way? JR> Would there be any fumes that could ignite? Don't know about that since I've never used a ceramic heater. JR> Any thing that would get so hot that keeping the inside at say JR> 70-8- degress would case problems? Don't really know that I'd want my car to be that warm if the outside was freezing cold, not unless I KNEW I'd be using it that day. JR> This also answers a rather side ways thinking question...( but good JR> one) WHERE is the power to come from? Guess you could have an extention cord run to it, but on heaters that draw a lot of energy, that may not be a good idea either. Ronnie in NC ... It is only those who do nothing who make no mistakes. --- AreaFix Fido MILITIA * Origin: Thor's Retreat/2 BBS Fayetteville, NC 910.424.0956 (1:3634/37) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500003 Date: 01/04/98 From: RONNIE THOMPSON Time: 11:42am \/To: JAY EMRIE (Read 0 times) Subj: 1994 Ply Battery Drain -=> Quoting JAY EMRIE to RONNIE THOMPSON <=- RT>Jay, I might be shooting in the wind here, but I remember a couple years RT>ago, hearing of a bunch of Chrysler vehicles, in which Chrysler had actually RT>put in security systems, but had not activiated them as it wasn't on the RT>"option list". IF the person who bought the car wanted a security ystem, RT>the dealer could activate the thing and charge some outrageous fee, claiming RT>they had "installed" a security system. Any chance that there might be one RT>on this vehicle and it may be causing problems?? How you check to see if RT>this particular one has it, I don't know. Perhaps with the VIN, and a nice RT>shop foreman or service advisor, at a Chrysler dealership. JE> Hmmmm? Wonder how the system could possibly drain the battery - JE> intermittently? We will check it out. Can't afford to leave any turns JE> unstoned. Thanks. Maybe, as in some motherboards that act flakey, it has a chip in it that has gone bad and is activating part of the time. I've known of a lot of motherboards that were this way and it makes diagnosis a pain in the rear. Please DO let us know what you find out, as to the problem. Ronnie in NC ... A belly button is for ketchup when you eat french fries in bed. --- AreaFix Fido MILITIA * Origin: Thor's Retreat/2 BBS Fayetteville, NC 910.424.0956 (1:3634/37) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500004 Date: 01/04/98 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 03:36pm \/To: JOHN RANGER (Read 0 times) Subj: ....ooooh the fun of dis JR>JAY EMRIE wrote in a message to JOHN RANGER: JR>JR>How does this matter? JR>JE> How? Well, that's elementary. If 18V is NOT likely to be available, JR>JE> it matters considerably. JR>Jay... JR>I didnt ask about the source...I asked about the likly possibility of sing JR> a voltage. JR>JR>I will give you 1 point for latteral thinking. -2 for receiting just abou JR>JE> What the heck is latteral???? What is receiting???? JR>JR>hole letter. JR>JE> You get -1 points for logic, -2 points for spelling. I reckon my -1 JR>JE> is better than your -3. JR>You do? JR>( slaphandsandgrin ) JR>Well, my friend JR>You take the prize because even when I have been banned, I have not found so JR>e to be iritating for doing so. JR>I can argue a point to death if it merits doing so, but unless I am going ou JR> my way to tic someone off becuase of plain outward rudeness and tupidity, JR>ry to stay within the merits of the discussion. and NEVER do the following.. I'd suggest you not be so touchy. YOU, my friend, are the one that started this tit for tat by giving me a sarcastic, derogatory reply to my logical response to your first message. As of this message, as far as I am concerned verbal fighting between us is over - kaput - finished. JR>I asked about using Higher voltage. JR>ok. JR>Where the voltage comes from is source for another discussion. JR>DONT even think that offshot discussions dont happen, You KNOW they do! JR>If someone were to provide me "WITH" the answer and was a person that like m JR>pes so fast that their spelling is a little bit hacked, or Botched, or ust JR>mplete and total mess...I would indeed be a ingrate to thank them and then s JR>.by the way,....you're spelling sucks republican Dung. JR>If I knew them well enough, I would maybe throw a poke and because of my fas JR>ping, I get pleanty. If my arguments are not sound and I get challanged, I w JR>even at the point of seeing my blood presure rise, JR>> "SWALLOW" my pride for a second, maybe a few days and listen to what is be JR>said... JR>I'm Italian. What does being Italian have to do with anything? Italians are just as capable of doing, learning, etc. as any other people, aren't they? I believe so anyhow. JR>Lemme tell you how easy that is.....NOT! IF and WHEN anybody puts you down because you are Italian, just remember that whatever race they may be, they are no better nor worse than you. Let's see. I'm English, Scotch, Irish, German, Dutch, French, Spanish, and Indian (Cree) (not necessarily in that order). Some of my ancestors really got around! However, my race or races (GRIN) doesn't make me any better or worse than any one else. JR>Where The 18 Vdc comes from WAS NOT the question. What would happen to the g JR>and thou I didnt origionally ask, The glass also, was the question. OK, Here is your answer. 18V is exceeding by 50% the rated voltage of the heating grid. ANY time you exceed manufacturers ratings that much you are in for early failure. Also, the excess heat generated may easily cause the rear window to shatter because of the extreme difference of temperature between the outside of the glass and the inside. You mentioned a ceramic heater in the letter reference below. Be warned, that ANY heater (ceramic or electric heating coils) can be dangerous IF tipped over. Yes, I know, you would be very careful and place the heater safely. However, what's to prevent some idiot from banging into your car (sliding in your notorious snow/ice) and thus dislodging the heater? Think about where it would likely end up - on the back seat! JR>You answer is in the next letter after this. JR> *********************** John aka RANGER *************************** JR>> Quit Crying! Stand up and Be a MAN, Like Elenor Rosevelt! Hey, I like that tag line! I think I'll swipe it. * OLX 2.1 TD * Over my dead... er, I mean, over my strong objection!" --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500005 Date: 01/04/98 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 03:35pm \/To: ROY J. TELLASON (Read 0 times) Subj: Engine Wanted RJT> RW> If that's the use you intend for the truck. RJT>It's one of them. I have a back-of-the-truck camper sitting out in the yar RJT>e, and am thinking about moving to a pull-behind unit later on. When you do seriously consider a trailer - a 5th wheel is the most practical over a tag a long. I speak from experience. * OLX 2.1 TD * Your proctologist called; he found your head. --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500006 Date: 01/04/98 From: SEAN DUNBAR Time: 04:11pm \/To: TOM WALKER (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Engine Wanted TW> Sounds like your engine is running too rich. FIX it and you would TW> save some Fuel and also not be polluting the atmosphere as much. Tom, it's not rich; it passed emissions with flying colours last time I got it inspected, and was putting out better numbers than some new cars. Yet it still backfired like a mofo. The check valve on this smog pump is bad... --- Telegard v3.09.g1/mL * Origin: tos * 972-818-0339 - dallas texas (1:124/6630) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500007 Date: 01/03/98 From: JOHN RANGER Time: 03:23pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: It "DIED!" Hello all! last night, my car died for a whole 2 minutes. in that time, the key buzzer worked when the key was inserted in the ignition switch but all other power was dead. I didnt check the break lights but the headlights, Dash lights, Doors, fan, HORN and radio were completly out. I checked the cables at the battery, the alternator and looked at the fuses as best as I could with the weak flashilight I had. after about 2 minutes of this, EVERYTHING came back? Outside of the pilot episode of the "X-FILES", what can cause this so that the buzzer still has power but nothing else? >... Natashia, qWeek! is John & Sqwhirl! > Don't you mean MOOSE, darlink? > Noooo.., Moose don't have Must-ash!! *********************** John aka RANGER *************************** * Origin: Fight AIDS, not PEOPLE with AIDS....KBC-BBS (1:260/310.4) --- Squish v1.10 * Origin: -=:[ KBC Point 4 ]:=- (1:260/310.4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500008 Date: 01/04/98 From: TOM WALKER Time: 05:51am \/To: ROY WITT (Read 0 times) Subj: Battery Terminals -> -> On, 31 Dec 97 at 10:46, -> Roy J. Tellason was overheard shouting over the engine noise, saying -> something to Roy Witt about "Battery Terminals",: -> -> RW>> My old Firebird!!! When I got it, it still had the -> RW>> original battery cables in it. Spring loaded (spring steel -> RW>> with lead outer layer) battery cable connectors... -> RJT> -> RJT> I can't recall *ever*, during the three years or so that I ran -> RJT> store, running across any spring-loaded terminals. Not in cars, -> RJT> anyhow... -> -> That old bird (1970) sits out in the garage with new cables on it now -> They were spring loaded cable ends and they sucked.... --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: Jim's East County BBS! El Cajon, CA. (619) 561-8424 (1:202/100) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F1500009 Date: 01/04/98 From: TOM WALKER Time: 05:52am \/To: ROY WITT (Read 0 times) Subj: Battery Terminals -> That old bird (1970) sits out in the garage with new cables on it now -> They were spring loaded cable ends and they sucked.... That was the old GM trick before they went to Side Terminals. I remember my 1965 Corvair Corsa having "Spring Clamp" battery ends. --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: Jim's East County BBS! El Cajon, CA. (619) 561-8424 (1:202/100)