--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00010 Date: 12/23/97 From: PETER HARLE Time: 04:04am \/To: MARC GERGES (Read 0 times) Subj: Battery sizes -=> Quoting Marc Gerges to Mark Logsdon <=- ML> When you connect car A's battery to car B's (dead) battery, car B's ML> battery draws a very large current. (For now let's assume that ML> alternator A and its voltage regulator will not react.) MG> Wrong assumption - as soon as the cables are set, car A's idle speed MG> shortly drops (and then is regulated by the injection pump). This MG> shows there is already a considerable amount of load on the MG> alternator. Marc, most alternators with the engine idling (600-800rpm) won't supply an output current much above 15 amps, that is with full field current applied via the regulator. The only way you will obtain more output current from the alternator is to increase engine speed, irrespective of any additional load placed on that vehicles output. In short, parallel connecting two batteries means that the charged battery supplies all but 15 Amps of the required current for the jumpered vehicle, which at idling is negligable in the overall current required by the starting vehicle when the starter is engaged. Regards Peter H. --- EzyBlueWave V1.20 01fb000b * Origin: Mt.Druitt TAFE +61-2-9839-1310 FidoNet (3:713/709) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00011 Date: 12/23/97 From: PETER HARLE Time: 08:03am \/To: TOM WALKER (Read 0 times) Subj: Electrical loads, battery -=> Quoting TOM WALKER to BILL MITCHELL <=- -> Your suspitions are correct, automotive alternators (in reality they -> really an AC Generator) are not self exciting and retain no residual -> magnatism. They need a battery to excite the field, otherwise they ha -> zero output. TW> Not only that but are of the Very Efficient Three Phase design TW> enabling them to put out those Higher Current outputs in a much TW> smaller package. Anybody that has ever seen or replaced an old 100 TW> Amp engine Generator can testify to that. G'day Tom, Actually most automotive alternators are less efficient than the equivalent current rated dc generator. The main reason is the power diodes, friction losses due to the commutator and brush gear are usually less than those for equivalent current carrying diodes (for units rated at 35A and higher). However, it depends on what you mean by efficiency, (usually the ratio of input and output power). If you mean power to weight ratio sure the modern alternator beats the old dc generator every time. The alternators main advantage however is that it is able to spin at much higher speeds (up to 15,000 rpm) compared to an armature with commutator. The relatively lower efficiency for an alternator is easily justified by its many other advantages. Regards Peter H. --- EzyBlueWave V1.20 01fb000b * Origin: Mt.Druitt TAFE +61-2-9839-1310 FidoNet (3:713/709) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00012 Date: 12/23/97 From: PETER HARLE Time: 08:04am \/To: CHARLES BOWMAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Hydrogen/Oxygen -=> Quoting Charles Bowman to Peter Harle <=- CB> Peter Harle wrote in a message to Mark Logsdon: PH> I've used Platinum electrodes in a brine solution to split water PH> into hydrogen and oxygen, for use in a small welding torch. CB> Do you carry the Alternate Energy echo? If so I think it might CB> be on topic, otherwise I'd like to hear more about this process CB> even if it's in email or netmail. G'day Charlie, Sorry my BBS does not carry that echo, but to make it on topic, I got the idea from an alternative fuel for automobiles. Basically the designer used "fuel cells" to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The gas was stored in high pressure steel containers, then used as a fuel for an IC engine, no pollution, the hydrogen and oxygen mixture when ignited produced heat and steam (water). The tricky bit is not to ingnite the hydrogen/oxygen mixture stored in the containers. The simple way of doing this is to use a porous (ceramic) flame barrier between the fuel source and the exposion chamber, or in my case the welding torch. Ideal for precision welding of small components, although it depends on the available quantity of fuel, more current more fuel etc., Regards Peter H. --- EzyBlueWave V1.20 01fb000b * Origin: Mt.Druitt TAFE +61-2-9839-1310 FidoNet (3:713/709) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00013 Date: 12/23/97 From: PETER HARLE Time: 08:05am \/To: JAY EMRIE (Read 0 times) Subj: Battery sizes -=> Quoting JAY EMRIE to PETER HARLE <=- JE> Peter, let me state it a different way. With NO jumpering being JE> done and without the engine running, what would happen to the JE> alternator diodes if one connected a fully charged battery BACKWARDS? JE> Draw a diagram out with just the reverse connected battery and the JE> alternator diodes. The only thing you would have to worry about then JE> would be just how much current the forward biased diodes could JE> handle!!!!! Jay, I agree, that's exactly what I said in the remainder of my message, complete with typical current and voltage ratings, which up to this point you would not have read. So I'm not sure why you placed your reply here, or wasn't it appropriate anywhere else (G). However, I didn't DISagree with what you stated, I just used more words to justify it. Cheers. Peter H. --- EzyBlueWave V1.20 01fb000b * Origin: Mt.Druitt TAFE +61-2-9839-1310 FidoNet (3:713/709) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00014 Date: 12/23/97 From: PETER HARLE Time: 06:08am \/To: JAY EMRIE (Read 0 times) Subj: Electrical connections -=> Quoting JAY EMRIE to JACK NELSON <=- JE> All of which says wonders for Silicone grease!!!!! JE> I just tried to measure some SLIP PLATE - a graphite based lubricant JE> and it also measured infinite resistance. One thing must be remembered JE> though. My Fluke meter has only a 9 V battery, and I have no idea of JE> just how much of that voltage in used for resisistance measurements. JE> With a higher voltage, say 110V it probably would conduct JE> significantly. G'day Jay, The fluke applies around 3 volt max to a diode continuity check, less than 0.6 volt for normal resistance ranges, that's why diodes appear open circuited except when measured in "diode mode". Are you aware of the dangers of using silicone based lubricants anywhere near switch or relay contacts bearing silver? Peter H. --- EzyBlueWave V1.20 01fb000b * Origin: Mt.Druitt TAFE +61-2-9839-1310 FidoNet (3:713/709) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00015 Date: 12/23/97 From: PETER HARLE Time: 07:45am \/To: MARK LOGSDON (Read 0 times) Subj: Battery sizes -=> Quoting Mark Logsdon to Marc Gerges <=- ML> The older regulating systems were simple proportional (P) systems ML> that had lots of deadband and/or hysteresis. The older systems ML> had much more stead state error and had more difficulty dealing with ML> overshoot. Now we use proportional-integral (PI) or ML> proportional-integral-derivative (PID) loops that have little or no ML> hysteresis. G'day Mark, I 've never really thought of applying PID controller principles to an alternator regulator. I've always thought that PID is generally more applicable to industrial control processes with relatively long time constants involving some type of linear action for the "proportional component" although not always. But, I like your approach, however (G); Alternator regulator operation is basically identical to the early electro-mechanical vibrating contact type. It varies the average field current of the alternator by rapidly switching a resistor in and out of the field winding circuit of the alternator. The solid state regulator is identical in its operation, albeit there are no moving parts. Connecting a CRO across the alternators field will show a square wave voltage with a mark space ratio and frequency depending on load, speed and output requirements (the field current is usually triangular when the regulator is actually "regulating"). At low engine rpm, and with a load greater than the output capability of the alternator, the field current will be maximum (not switching). The output voltage of the alternator also has a small amount of hysteresis, without it, the regulator would be linear and dissipate relatively large amounts of power (12 W) at 50% output. I initially built such a regulator (linear) to replace the vibrating reed type typically used by BOSCH and Ford units back in the late 70s. The problem with such a design is the relatively large time constant of the field winding. That was solved by converting the linear regulator to a switching type incorporating a small amount of positive feedback (hysteresis). This improves the stability of the system considerably, and is the basis of all modern alternator regulators, be they internal or external to the alternator. Regards, Peter H. --- EzyBlueWave V1.20 01fb000b * Origin: Mt.Druitt TAFE +61-2-9839-1310 FidoNet (3:713/709) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00016 Date: 12/22/97 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 10:17am \/To: KEVIN RELKOFF (Read 0 times) Subj: '91 Mk VII KR> RT> I agree, Kevin, but how many people out there are gonna pull out heir KR> RT> own FWD transaxle, tear it down in their backyard and rebuild it?? ot KR> RT> many I would guess. If it's too complicated for Haynes to put in KR> True, Very true.. heh I've had both.. and i'm not one to like tear down KR> a Automatice transmission, ect.. But for the stuff i do do.. the SHop KR> manual Is alot better.. Also I've seen Haynes Manuals that have been KR> wrong with certain things.. and how they are done.. Who would know how KR> car is built better then the company that builds them? Probably the guy that ends up making them work - ie fixing them! KR> RT> their $11.00 books, most of us are not gonna be attempting it :) st KR> true =] KR> RT> my opinion. I'm not saying the factory manuals don't have a place, nd KR> RT> if you have just one vehicle, the $60.00 isn't too bad. I'm just KR> RT> saying that for the average joe, the Haynes will do just fine. Plus KR> RT> you can use the difference, to buy a few special tools, to work on he KR> RT> thing :) KR> If your dealign with Speciality tools for Fords.. You won't get many KR> MAybe one or two if your lucky =] Also I like the idea of a Shop anual, KR> You can read through it.. and see what's wrong with it.. And then take it KR> in to have it fixed.. and Then You can see if they aren't charging you KR> something not related to the problem.. KR>Yah.. Haynes is a great, cheaper, manual for cars.. My dad has always KR>bought them.. and they do him good.. So. and so do my friends.. But I KR>myself.. Just like the idea of a WEE bit more detail, ect.. also I dont' KR>knwo if they do it in haynes.. But in my '91 T-bird/Cougar shop manual.. t KR>explains how everything works. Like the ABS system.. and each part of it, KR>ect.. so you can get a idea what is happening with the car.. KR>--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] KR> * Origin: Value Link BBS 930-0715 (1:153/959) * OLX 2.1 TD * If your are too careful you WILL trip over something! --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00017 Date: 12/22/97 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 02:15pm \/To: JOHN FAERBER (Read 0 times) Subj: 90 Spirit JF>It has a V-6, ran fine, then it developed a very slight occassional surge wh JF>at stop lights (just once in awhile)My wife mentioned it seemed to have a sh JF>to it at highway speeds that got worse the fster she went. JF>I figured it was tire balance, I would get it don this weekend. JF>She called on her way home from work, it had died and would not start. Seems JF>had no power and took forever to get through the final intersection before i JF>ed. JF>I got it started and it went OK (kept the RPM's up around 14-1500 at tops) JF> I got home and elt it idle on its own, it was shaking badly! JF>Checked the computer codes and none came up, Just a week before I had change JF>e fuel filter, the gas that came out looked OK except for the last little bi JF>ich appeared to be brown. JF>WIthout blowing a fortune on stuff that may or may not fix it, what would be JF> first thing to look at, or the most likely curre for it? Double check the fuel for water!!!! Often water gives fuel a "rusty" brown color. FYI I once filled up after driving about 75 miles around town. Immediately after leaving the filling station I started having trouble. Two blocks away it was undrivable. Got the station to tow me back and they drained about a gallon of dirty rusty colored water out of my tank (yep, luckily the tank ahd a drain plug - 77 Datsun PU). They then drained ALL the gas out, replaced the fuel filter, and refilled my tank. Both of us were unable to explain why NO one else complained of water that day. Guess I got it all and they hadn't had their tanks filled up that day. * OLX 2.1 TD * Poop Deck: The bottom of a bird cage. --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00018 Date: 12/22/97 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 10:20am \/To: ROY WITT (Read 0 times) Subj: Antifreeze RW>19 Dec 97 21:05, JAY EMRIE said this about Antifreeze to ROY WITT. RW> JE> RW> RW>> 17 Dec 97 13:16, JAY EMRIE said this about Antifreeze to JAMES RW> RW>> ARNOLD. RW> JE> RW> RW> JE>> the warranty period - They say the original coo lant is supposed RW> RW> JE>> to last 30000 miles or 3 years. RW> JE> RW> RW>> Only if you use that same kind of antifreeze to top it off when it RW> RW>> gets low. you use the ordinary antifreeze, you'll lose the longevity RW> RW>> and maybe even c e your freeze protection... RW> JE> RW> JE> I have a hard time accepting that. Ford's owner manual states "Use RW> JE> Ford Cooling System Fluid E2FZ-19549-AA >or< an equivilant engine RW> JE> coolant that meets Ford's Specification ESE-M97B44-A. I'd say Ford RW> JE> would be in deep doo doo if they claimed Prestone didn't fit the RW> JE> specs. RW>Better check with your Ford dealer then. Both Prestone and Texaco state tha RW>u'll lose the longevity of the extended life antifreeze if you use rdinary RW>freeze to fill up when it's low. RW> JE> I do know for a fact that some years back my brother-in-law RW> JE> used to drive a truck for Chemical Lehman and hauled antifreeze from RW> JE> the chemical plants on the Texas Coast to ALL the major antifreeze RW> JE> makers AND to FORD, and pumped his load out of common tanks to each RW> JE> of these places. RW>With the advent of extended life antifreeze, I'll bet he doesn't do that any RW>e. Well that would have nothing to do with it. He passed away a couple months ago. :-( And had been on dialysis for 5 years prior to that. :-( :-( RW> JE> This same thing happens with gasoline here. Texaco, Exxon, Shell, RW> JE> et al would get the same gas for their filling stations from one RW> JE> common refinery lots of times. RW>That happens here too. Ours isn't trucked in, it's piped in from the refine RW> in L.A.. RW>... I wish Noah had swatted those two flies... What about the mosquitos & cockroachs? * OLX 2.1 TD * Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand. --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: EGS00019 Date: 12/22/97 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 10:21am \/To: BILL MITCHELL (Read 0 times) Subj: Antifreeze BM>JE>chemical plants on the Texas Coast to ALL the major antifreeze makers BM>JE>AND to FORD, and pumped his load out of common tanks to each of these BM>JE>places. This same thing happens with gasoline here. Texaco, Exxon, BM>JE>Shell, et al would get the same gas for their filling stations from one BM>JE>common refinery lots of times. BM>And I can attest to the fact that even when the gasoline does not come BM>from the same rack, often they will trade or buy product from one BM>another and the only difference between the end products is the color of BM>the identifying dye. Oh yes, I forgot to mention the dye! * OLX 2.1 TD * Talk is cheap except when a lawyer does it! --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23)