--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00029 Date: 03/16/97 From: MEG ALFONI Time: 06:43pm \/To: BOB SEABORN (Read 1 times) Subj: Well, BS :>Ok, I'm here. Now what? :) BS :>Where's the party and drunken debauchery that you promised? Now, just who promised you that?? I've been away, but have perused your posts about your daughter and horses. Nice to see you here! Glad to see a new face :) Meg --- * Origin: Elizabeth's Revenge (1:330/173) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00030 Date: 03/16/97 From: MEG ALFONI Time: 06:48pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Our vacation! Just got back from a week in Barbados...sunshine, warm weather, surf, sand, sea...wow!! Best part of the whole trip, though, was a 2 hour ride on a cattle ranch in the highlands of Barbados. The whole family was there...me, Richard, Mike, my other son, Jamie and his girlfriend, and my daughter, Juelie and her boyfriend. The only real riders in the group were me and Juelie. It was a real hoot watching Richard try to ride for his first time in an English saddle!! He lovingly renamed his horse "Nutcracker"! He was bouncing all over the place!!...he's too used to his big, old Western saddle (g). Wish I'd had my video camera!! I'd win the America's Funniest Videos contest in a flash! Glad to be home, albeit to the coldest weather all winter..boo!! Spring was supposed to have arrived while we were away....Sure missed my horses and puppies! Meg --- * Origin: Elizabeth's Revenge (1:330/173) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00031 Date: 03/16/97 From: BOB SEABORN Time: 09:22pm \/To: MIKE MAY (Read 1 times) Subj: Well, > -> if you pay for the call. :) > > I can confirm this. I have sent netmail to you several times when I You've sent *me* netmail? How come I don't remember any of it. > have just > gotten up. Wait a few minutes for you to read it and reply and get one > crashed > right back to me. There is a 3 hour time diff but that does put us on And I rarely crash mail back. And I'm only 3 hours diff from Nova Scotia in the summer, when they're on Daylight time. I'm in CST all year round. You're in New York, which right now is only 1 hour ahead of me. mmm... I see my old buddy is your NC. Say "Hi" to Dave for me, will you? > pretty > different clock scheds too. > Somehow I think you've mixed me up with Bob "Coca-Khola". I'm "d'udder Bob". :) .....Bob --- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50 * Origin: Further North - USR 33.6 x2 (306) 956-3383 (1:140/12.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00032 Date: 03/16/97 From: BOB SEABORN Time: 09:24pm \/To: KARIN BREWER (Read 1 times) Subj: an interesting afternoon >->> -> me.. every horse that could smell or see the camel was upset.. >->> -> Tush never really skipped that much of a beat. ;) > -> >->> And that's quite something. > -> > -> She's a great kid.. :) > -> > -> Wish I could budget in to breed again this year.. :/. > > Time to start saving pennies for next year then. Maybe a Christmas > present from Bob to Bob? Gee, thank's for the thought, but I really am not expecting a Christmas present from Bob, at least not this year. :) .....Bob --- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50 * Origin: Further North - USR 33.6 x2 (306) 956-3383 (1:140/12.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00033 Date: 03/16/97 From: BOB SEABORN Time: 09:17pm \/To: MIKE MAY (Read 1 times) Subj: Well, > That sounds like a familiar tune actually. I wish I had your board to > pay > though!!! We pay $225 a month here now and that is cheap. You don't > find much for less than $200 around here. Well, Jen's now taking boarders. If you want, I'll put in a good word for you. :) > -> staring back at her (their water trough is right across the fence from > -> the deck, all of 15-20 feet). > > This is of course the dream of most any horse person. I know my > daughter would love to move right in there for sure. How old is she? My two girls, the horse freaks, are 23 and 12. > >->> She then talked a breeder into letting her lease (free) a Norwegian >>-> Fjord horse > > -> I have no idea what that is, sorry. > > Well ask your daughter if she knows. If you want I have some gifs & > jpegs of > her scanned in. Do you have Internet access? Yes, dr.bob@the.link.ca, or you can reach my daughter directly at jen@prairie.town.asquith.sk.ca if you'd prefer. > Driving, Jumping, Eventing, Dressage & Trail that I can think of. And > all with the same horse too. Well, Jen's done barrel racing, steer riding, and once (I think) bronc riding. Not something that her old man's heart can take much of. :) > > Well just ask. I guess every group has their buzz words and acronyms. > Once > you get used to them you will know another language again. ;-) Well, if I'm really curious, I just ask Jen. .....Bob --- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50 * Origin: Further North - USR 33.6 x2 (306) 956-3383 (1:140/12.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00034 Date: 03/16/97 From: BOB SEABORN Time: 09:46pm \/To: VICKI NICHOLS (Read 1 times) Subj: Appies >BS> A Welsh/Appaloosa leopard mare, pregnant by a purebred >BS> quarterhorse, and a filly (from the same stud) who was >BS> born last August. > > My first horse was a Welsh/Appaloosa mix, a blood-red sorrel with > flaxen mane and tail, with snowflake spots on his hips. I was > wondering, is your mare registered POA or NAPI? Not sure if either What's POA or NAPI? > takes hardship registrations if you have no papers - at least with a > mare, hardshipping in a registration is expensive. I have no papers, nor any idea how to get them, even if they'd be available. All i know about papers is from my days as a dog breeder (Boxers), ane with canines, both parents have to be registered and papered before you can even think about registering the pups. In fact, it's against Canadian law to claim a dog is purebred unless you can produce papers. With horses, I have no idea, sorry. > > The Appaloosa pony is very popular around here; the size is great > for most anything. I have trophies and a trophy buckle from barrel > racing mine; we also drove him (2 wheel buggy) and my best friend jumped > him. He was a terrific first horse for a teenager. Well, mine is planned for my 11 year old daughter (6 weeks short of 2). What she does with it, only time will tell. .....Bob --- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50 * Origin: Further North - USR 33.6 x2 (306) 956-3383 (1:140/12.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00035 Date: 03/16/97 From: KARIN BREWER Time: 03:07pm \/To: ANGELA PATTEN (Read 1 times) Subj: lipizzans 1 Some years back when Yugoslavia first started falling apart and the war was taking place in northern Croatia, there was concern as to what happened to the Lipizzans that had been at Lipice. One of the questions was whether there were any Lipizzan bloodlines that were represented only at Lipica. At about that time, I managed to get hold of a library copy of a book on the Lipica horses, "Lippizaner" by Milan Dolenc. The following compilation is based largely on that book, and was created with view to having a look at the various bloodlines. There was quite a bit of other historical information that didn't make it into the summary, and if your library has the book or can get it in time for your report, it's definitely worth looking through. One thing though must be kept in mind: Dolenc is prejudiced in favor of Lipica and the - then - Yugoslav point of view regards Lipizzans. You will find that there are essentially two views on the subject: 1) the Austrian view 2) everybody else's view... You'll find the names of the classic Lipizzan stallion lines in the later summary of Dolenc's book. During the time Lipizza was under Austrian control, there were also the Austrian-approved mare lines. New stallions were introduced very occasionally to improve the breed, and from the looks of it, new mare lines were established a bit more often. It would be nice to know just what the selection of mares was based on, because I don't think an outstanding mare had to be Lipizzan or part Lipizzan. But, I don't know. There must have been numerous outstanding mares that were repeatedly bred to Lipizzan stallions in the hope to establish another mare line, just to find that the resulting foals didn't meet the criteria - something that might take years to determine. (Like, the foals might grow into horses with the right looks, but would they have the abilities? Would their offspring? yways...) Now then, let me try to fill in a few gaps from memory. The Lipizzan breed was established by order of the ruling Hapsburg dynasty some time in the 1700's, by breeding "local mares" (which means from the general area of Lipica, which back then was called Lipizza) to a selected few Andalusian, Arab, etc. stallions. It is my understanding that while the main stud farm was at Lipizza, there were others scattered throughout the Austrian empire. I remember hearing of at least one in Hungary, and at least one - Kladrub - in what was later Czechoslovakia. In Kladrub, they were breeding Lipizzans intended as carriage horses. There were also several locations in the later Yugoslavia. Some of these places the Lipizzans got to while being shuffled around to evade local conflicts, others may have started out as lesser Lipizzan stud farms. The Austrian rulers rode Lipizzans, and occasionally would give some away as a gift or honor. Many of the "Airs Above the Ground" were developed from the necessities of the battlefield. The Spanish Riding School in Vienna was built early on, originally as an indoor riding arena (I guess emperors like them fancy...) and since then there were always talented Lipizzan stallions being trained there. At the end of World War I, the area of Lipizza was lost to the Italians, and the horses - all or some of them - were moved to the newly established stud farm at Piber (near Graz, the capital of the state of Styria, southeast of Vienna). There continued to be a stud farm at Lipizza, but now governed by the Italians and presumably Italian rules. If I remember, the Italians tended to breed a heavier type of Lipizzan, though I'm not sure whether that was at Lipizza or elsewheres. With the approaching end of World War II, the Germans evacuated the Lipizza, Piber and Vienna horses (and other valuable horses) and moved them to a place called Hostau (I think), and eventually the horses were marched towards the American lines - to escape capture by the Russian army - and surrendered to Patton's forces. Following the end of the war, the Americans distributed the horses - presumably as fairly as possible - between the claimants: Some horses went to Yugoslavia in whose domain Lipizza (now renamed Lipica) was after 1945. Some horses went to Italy. Some horses went to Austria. Presumably some went to Czechoslovakia. All these places at least occasionally would sell horses; Austria tended to sell some that were not essential for their breeding program (in short, individuals that were not outstanding). Lipica may have sold some really good individuals in periods of financial crisis. Italy and whoever else, who knows? These days there are Lipizzans all over the world. Their owners and breeders will all insist those horses are genuine Lipizzans. I expect there are breed associations - maybe national, maybe worldwide - that would tell you the same. Except for the Austrians... Last I heard, the Austrians still only recognize "their" Lipizzaners. Though the Austrians must have found a way around that when they had to bring in outside Lipizzan mares following the herpes outbreak that left so many of the Austrian Lipizzan mares barren, some time in the 1980's. Karin * OLX 2.1 TD * I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain. --- InterEcho 1.15 * Origin: Passage MO System, San Antonio, TX (1:387/915) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00036 Date: 03/16/97 From: KARIN BREWER Time: 02:54pm \/To: ANGELA PATTEN (Read 1 times) Subj: lipizzans 2 The following was the introductory message posted with the compilation of Dolenc's book (some of this will overlap the previous message): After much digging through 'Lipizzaner' by Dolenc: Not only does it seem hopeless to look at the time frame before 1945, it's just as hopelessly muddled after. I did get the traditional stallion and mare lines, but rather get the impression that each country (possibly even breeder) uses their own names for the mares. If Podhajski's book can shed some light on what the mares were called in Austria after 1945, that would be of interest. (Merely academic, though.) Also, who sets breed standards? There's been entirely too many Lipizzaners scattered all over Europe to effectively make any guess as to what Lipica might have been able to acquire for restocking after WWII. The book lists the few mares and stallions that came from the herd that got rescued by Patton, and names of (all?, or some?) Lipizzaners they were able to procure from other locations in Yugoslavia, up to about 1958 (which, however, is the time they ran into financial difficulties and had to sell 'all but one of the trained stallions.' [I rather think, also some mares. More on that later.] They had, however, by the time of the book established a new mare line. (Hence my question as to who sets breed standards. Would the Rebecca line be recognized by Austria, Italy, Hungary, etc.) Per Dolenc, both Austria and Italy ended up with 14 mare lines after WWII, but he says that there were 16 at Lipica as of 1981. (It wouldn't surprise me too much if they had gone and established a few more since 1981. It would also not surprise me too much if the other countries didn't accept the new Lipica lines - in which case Lipica, or at least Yugoslavia, may well have been the only place they existed, and with the war there, those new lines could truly be lost forever.) Various and sundry people had, in past centuries, acquired stallions for improving local stock, and some even obtained mares and started to breed Lipizzaners. While the book doesn't specify, it's probably safe to assume that most of those stallions and mares were culls from the Lipica breeding program. (The exceptions, possibly? Emperor Charles VI supposedly had the habit of letting some people pick their own Lipizzaner, as a royal favor - and those horses may well have been top quality.) Anyways, stallion and mare lines, and assorted other information to follow in the next several messages. Karin * OLX 2.1 TD * It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a --- InterEcho 1.15 * Origin: Passage MO System, San Antonio, TX (1:387/915) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00037 Date: 03/16/97 From: KARIN BREWER Time: 02:54pm \/To: ANGELA PATTEN (Read 1 times) Subj: lipizzans 3 All the following (unless where stated) from Milan Dolenc's book 'Lipizzaner', published in Yugoslavia in 1981. Training for stallions begins at age 3 1/2. Schooling, generally speaking, takes four full years. Only in second half of fourth year do they start in on the airs above the ground. There are yearly rigorous culls, so only the ablest horses progress to the next level of training. After 3rd year of training, the best stallions are sent out for stud for one season. They become permanent studs only (after 2 - 3 years) if their offspring prove acceptable. Training for mares also begins at age 3 1/2. First year includes driving, and at the end thereof, riding. Here, too, cull at end of first year of training. Best mares spend another year in driving training (2- to 4-horse carriages). After that, they enter the breeding program. STALLION LINES Favory: b. 1779. blue-brown . From Kladruby (Czech.) Maestoso: b. 1773. grey. From Kladruby (Czech.) Line died out at Lipica during early 19th century. As Maestoso progeny had been purchased by other breeders, Lipica was able to immediately restablish the line with Maestoso X from Mesoehegyes (Hungary) Conversano: b. 1767. dark brown. 'Italian horse born in the stables of Count Kaunitz'[Austrian]. Neapolitano: b. 1790. brown. From Italy. Pluto: b. 1765. grey. From Denmark. (Danish king established stables in 1592. The Danish horse was the result of crossing several breeds, mostly Spanish, Italian and Arabian; and was much sought after.) Pluto's offspring found great favor with the Austrian court and were often used to pull its heavy coaches. Siglavy: b. 1810. Arabian. Incitato: 19th century. Also known as the Transsylvanian, Hungarian, or Mesoehegyes-Fagaros line. Used for breeding at Lipica between 1852 and 1854. 11 progeny resulted, all of which were ultimately rejected; this line is still raised in Hungary today [1981]. Tulipan: Established 1810 by Count Jankovic at his Terezovac stables in Croatia. Stallion lines that have since died out: Montedoro Lipp Montebello Imperatore Peppoli Toscanello Confitero Danese Spagniolo Boemo Tuperto Amico Le Fancon From time to time, English thoroughbread and half-blood stallions were imported (though breeding experiments were rarely successful). The only stallions which left permanent traces were Millord from the Sardinia dam line, Pilgrim from the Englanderia dam line, and Regent from the Spadiglia dam line. Another brief mention is made of the Arab stallion Vezir ('a favorite of Napoleon') the French brought in from Egypt. The horses had been evacuated prior to the French's arrival, so 'they [the French] attempted to revive the breed with some of the animals that had been left behind and others which were found in the possession of local residents. Vezir was later retained for breeding when the herd returned from Hungary.' Several other Arabians are mentioned by name, but no details (Tadmor, Gazlan, Saydan, Samson, Hadudi, 'beautiful Ben Azet', as well as six Arabian stallions arriving at the same time as Siglavy. (continued in next message) * OLX 2.1 TD * Misspelled? Impossible. Error correcting modem! --- InterEcho 1.15 * Origin: Passage MO System, San Antonio, TX (1:387/915) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 243 HORSES Ref: E3L00038 Date: 03/16/97 From: KARIN BREWER Time: 02:55pm \/To: ANGELA PATTEN (Read 1 times) Subj: lipizzans 4 MARE LINES: Proven lines stem from 20 mares. Of these, 4 were grey Karst horses: Argentina: b. 1767. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Slava and Adria. Sardinia: b. 1776. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Betalka. Spadiglia: b. 1778. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Monteaura. Another 5 were greys from Kladruby (Czech.): Africa: b. 1764. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Barbara and Batosta. Almerina: b. 1769. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Slavina and Sai. Englanderia: b. 1773. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Allegra. Europa: b. 1774. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Trompeta. Presciana: b. 1782. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Bonadea. Two of the mares that originated Lipizzaner lines were blacks from Kopcany: Stornella: b. 1748. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Steaka. Famosa: b. 1783. Deflorata: b. 1767. Grey. From Denmark. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Capriola and Canissa. Rosza: b. 1886. From the Aladar Jankovic stables. ((In Croatia at Terezovac?? There's several Jankovic's mentioned at several places, over the years.)) Five more mares which began new lines were Arabians: Kheil il Massaid: b. 1841. brown. Mersuha: birth date unknown. From the desert. Gidrana: b. 1841. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Gaeta and Gaetana. Djebrin: b. 1862. From the military stables at Radautz. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Dubovina. Mercurio: b. 1883. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Gratiosa. Theodorasta: b. 1886. From the stables of Baron Kapri at Bukovina. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Wera. Radautzerin: b. 1915 in Piber. Purchased from Radautz. Rebecca: began her own mare line at Lipica following World War II. Her dam was an Arabian mare, also called Rebecca, from the Speiser stables. At Lipica, mares of this line are called Thais. (continued in next message) * OLX 2.1 TD * From the Republic of Texas --- InterEcho 1.15 * Origin: Passage MO System, San Antonio, TX (1:387/915)