--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00000 Date: 01/26/98 From: JONATHAN FINGAS Time: 01:23pm \/To: PATRICK MCCULLOUGH (Read 0 times) Subj: Descent Freespace PM> Depends on the technology involved. First-person shooters are probably PM> not a great place to demo a really great auto racing sim engine, or PM> a puzzle-maker, or whatever. Obviously enough. As John Carmack has said, it's doubtful there will be a "do-everything" engine in the near future. Engines like Build and Quake II are best for indoor and/or humanized environments, but flounder somewhat when they're taken outside. For that, you need something closer to Terra Nova's engine (still impressive, when you think about it). While I don't know how close Prey will get to that, I know that one of the focii of id's Trinity engine will be the outdoors. PM> They are getting better at making it seem real, though, which is probably PM> part of the goal, hopefully not at the expense of gameplay. But of course, that brings up an interesting issue... at what point does realism start to destroy the entertainment? I think part of peoples' worries is that they don't know how future games will play. We're used to killing dozens of enemies per level (or environment, as the Prey team insists). But in real life, barring unusual circumstances, you couldn't do that. I think a nice game would be one where just killing ONE person feels like an achievement. That may happen with Prey... way back when they expected it for late 1996 (ha!), they said they would cut down on the number of enemies and improve their skill enough to make it more like a single-player deathmatch. If that works out correctly, Prey should be a blast. PM> And as far as technology goes, it's not so bad that 3dR has made other PM> sorts of games. Sometimes doing other games can help a developer see PM> the forrest for the trees, so to speak. Or just learn how to do things PM> in other and perhaps innovative ways. I know that would help - that's part of why I asked about games other than 1st-person ones. The question is, just what should they do? A racing game, particularly one involving combat, would be nice. But so would an action-oriented space combat game. PM> To use a cooking analogy, if a first-person shooter is oatmeal, then PM> id is working on perfecting oatmeal, oatmeal with raisins, oatmeal PM> with sugar and milk, etc. Can't complain, just so long as it tastes good. :-) Isn't it fun to get into abstract conversations? PM> 3dR did oatmeal, and oatmeal with raisins, and now they're working on PM> barbeque spare ribs and lobster. Next time they make oatmeal, it PM> might end up having barbeque sauce on the side. And who knows what PM> that will do to the gameplay. It will be fun finding out. :) That's definitely something anyone can agree on. We should be thankful these days that companies are really trying something NEW, not just a slightly improved version of a previous game. PM> You got that right: far less things to keep track of, which makes PM> it somewhat harder to control. A PC keyboard does have advantages PM> over a gamepad, no matter how good that pad might be. I wouldn't even want to use a keypad or gamepad to control a space sim, though. Isn't it true that Colony Wars supports the PSX's analog pad? If so, that's probably the recommended way to handle it. PM> It's a lot better than X-wing, that's for sure. And the graphics PM> are very nice. I'd rank it as a must-see at least, and a must-buy PM> when it comes to the used game bins. I'm not sure if it's a LOT better (X-Wing always holds a place in my heart), but it certainly compares favourably. I guess the general opinion is that if you're a fan of the genre, and don't mind the somewhat familiar gameplay, it's a good choice. Now, back to Descent: Freespace (that's what the header of the message says, after all). Hopefully, this should turn out to not just be a nice space shooter, but a more innovative game as a whole. The fact that it still has the Descent moniker implies that much, and the graphics are at least good enough. --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34, (1:163/215) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00001 Date: 01/26/98 From: JONATHAN FINGAS Time: 01:40pm \/To: LEE JACKSON (Read 0 times) Subj: Game musicians LJ> And talk about what? If it isn't about business, then LJ> it's a waste of both LJ> of our time. We have work to do. Yes, I suppose you DO have to work eventually (though if you like making music, I'm not sure if you could call it that). Just try to meet him sometime, I'm sure you'd both have some interesting tales and advice to are. LJ> Bobby Prince. Purple Motion. And, in some small way, Trent Reznor. Ah yes, "The Artist Formerly Known as Bobby Prince." :-) Of course, he's one of the better-known game musicians out there. But I haven't heard much of him lately, not since Xenophage at least. Purple Motion? I don't remember ANY of their work. Got any examples? For some reason, Zone 66 comes to mind... Trent Reznor... sure, he did game "music" (more like ambient sound), but for one game. AnyRiver did one game, but we have no idea whether "A Fork In the Tale" was just a fluke or a harbinger of terrible things to come. I'm not saying that Reznor's work was bad (have you met him, BTW?), but he doesn't really have a legacy. You do, albeit a relatively brief one. I hate to fuel the file for your side of the argument, but what about Sonic Mayhem? While I wouldn't say their Quake II work is spectacular, it isn't bad - and they're the only people so far who have released game music AFTER the fact. LJ> No, it isn't. Is this towards the "general enough" aspect, or the "special treatment?" I'm gathering that it's towards the former, not the latter. I doubt any company would be willing to say "no, we'll just do the same old thing." --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34, (1:163/215) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00002 Date: 01/26/98 From: JONATHAN FINGAS Time: 01:48pm \/To: JOE SIEGLER (Read 0 times) Subj: Descent Freespace JS> the best place to showcase new technology is a JS> |1st-person shooter. JS> Boy, do you have a *LOT* to learn. :) I do? Well, what games other than 1st-person ones in the PC realm have been technology showcases? And I'm not talking hardware showcases, I'm talking engine showcases. Games like Wipeout XL (and, yes, Colony Wars) have been excuses for a particular system or a PC videocard; something like Quake or Quake II, and of course Prey, is an engine showcase. Besides, where's 3D Realms' high-tech racer or space combat sim? Oh, and on the side, this is probably one of the few times when you've written in a happier tone. Usually, you sound a bit stern. Of course, I haven't done much to engender the former... JS> Here's the bottom line. We will make what we like to play and what JS> *WE THINK IS FUN*. Period. Nothing more. No "But..", nothing. Of course, that IS the ultimate goal. However, I'm not sure if you achieved that completely with Shadow Warrior. Some of the levels were, well, a tad on the dull side. There were some creative ones, of course, but SW didn't quite hit that Duke 3D "wow!" level. Not that it would have really been possible, since a lot has happened since that fateful winter of 1996 (isn't it about two years since the shareware release of Duke?). By the time the full Shadow Warrior had arrived, we had Quake, two mission packs for it, and Hexen II. I'm not saying that those are all superior to Shadow Warrior (in terms of plain fun, I prefer SW over Hexen II; I don't have the mission packs), but there's that definite "been there, done that" feel. I'm also fairly certain that Duke Nukem Forever and Prey will succeed, if just because they each have a unique factor driving them. DNF... well, it's Duke. That alone brings a lot to the table, just in terms of sheer gameplay and fun. Prey should be interesting not just because of portal technology, but because of the gameplay enhancements it's supposed to be decidedly "fresher" than even Quake II. --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34, (1:163/215) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00003 Date: 01/26/98 From: PATRICK MCCULLOUGH Time: 04:53am \/To: JONATHAN FINGAS (Read 0 times) Subj: Descent Freespace Jonathan Fingas wrote in a message to Patrick McCullough: PM> Garsh, man, 3dRealms has only made four games! One out of four is PM> not so bad, is it? JF> True, but don't forget that their next two games are also JF> 1st-person shooters. id has an excuse for making nothing but JF> 1st-person games; they're a technology company, and the best place JF> to showcase new technology is a 1st-person shooter. Depends on the technology involved. First-person shooters are probably not a great place to demo a really great auto racing sim engine, or a puzzle-maker, or whatever. They are getting better at making it seem real, though, which is probably part of the goal, hopefully not at the expense of gameplay. And as far as technology goes, it's not so bad that 3dR has made other sorts of games. Sometimes doing other games can help a developer see the forrest for the trees, so to speak. Or just learn how to do things in other and perhaps innovative ways. To use a cooking analogy, if a first-person shooter is oatmeal, then id is working on perfecting oatmeal, oatmeal with raisins, oatmeal with sugar and milk, etc. 3dR did oatmeal, and oatmeal with raisins, and now they're working on barbeque spare ribs and lobster. Next time they make oatmeal, it might end up having barbeque sauce on the side. And who knows what that will do to the gameplay. It will be fun finding out. :) PM> Colony Wars has got the be the biggest joke I've seen in years. JF> But what about the branching missions and the more story-driven JF> material, not to mention a more convienient cockpit. Actually, You got that right: far less things to keep track of, which makes it somewhat harder to control. A PC keyboard does have advantages over a gamepad, no matter how good that pad might be. JF> though, I have to ask you this: is it FUN? From what I've heard, JF> it's a resounding yes. Most of it may have been done before, but JF> not quite like this. It's a lot better than X-wing, that's for sure. And the graphics are very nice. I'd rank it as a must-see at least, and a must-buy when it comes to the used game bins. The only real flaw is that it just feels like I've done this before. Oatmeal, but with sparkly raisins this time. Enough of this before Joe gets mad. :) Patrick --- timEd 1.10 * Origin: Layzner SPT-LZ-00X (1:133/1024) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00004 Date: 01/26/98 From: LEE JACKSON Time: 03:21am \/To: ROGER FINGAS (Read 0 times) Subj: DNF, Prey, and KMFDM -=> Quoting Roger Fingas to Lee Jackson <=- RF> I'm confused. Having been online recently, I discovered that RF> KMFDM is doing the soundtrack to Prey, not Duke Nukem Forever. What RF> gives? I thought you would love to compose some tribal music. Sorry, can't discuss details, other than KMFDM is contributing to the Prey soundtrack. -Lee ... My God! It's full of stars! --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 * Origin: Hack Central Station * Garland, TX (1:124/9005.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00005 Date: 01/26/98 From: LEE JACKSON Time: 03:23am \/To: JONATHAN FINGAS (Read 0 times) Subj: Game musicians -=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to Lee Jackson <=- JF> Don't hobnob? Geez, give the guy a phone call or something. And talk about what? If it isn't about business, then it's a waste of both of our time. We have work to do. JF> Well, think about it for a moment. Who do you know that is JF> reknowned for their game music? The only other people I can think of JF> are George Oldziey (the Wing Commander III composer) and George "The JF> Fat Man" Sanger. Bobby Prince. Purple Motion. And, in some small way, Trent Reznor. JF> Kind of a loss, but you make it sound like DNF is going to have some JF> special treatment as well. Would that be the case? That's probably JF> general and non-revealing enough of a question to answer. No, it isn't. -Lee ... If you can't say something nice, say something surrealistic. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 * Origin: Hack Central Station * Garland, TX (1:124/9005.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00006 Date: 01/26/98 From: JOE SIEGLER Time: 07:37am \/To: KEN PRETTY (Read 0 times) Subj: 3D Realms |-----------------| Regarding 3D Realms | JS> Yes. There's only been three 3D Realms games. Terminal Velocity, | JS> Duke Nukem 3D, & Shadow Warrior. That's RELEASED games, before JF | JS> jumps down my throat and points it out. | |okay, good..i win the bet..! |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| We did have "Ruins: Return of the Gods" & "Blood", but we sold the rights to both games during development to other companies. Ruins was released under the name "Powerslave". Joe Siegler - Apogee Software ... Rise of the Triad Release the gas! --- * 1st v2/TagX v1.4 * --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0074 * Origin: Apogee Software - Garland, TX - 972-271-5410 (1:124/9006) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 240 APOGEE GAMES Ref: F1W00007 Date: 01/26/98 From: JOE SIEGLER Time: 07:44am \/To: CHRIS BRADLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Balls Of Steel