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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00000 Date: 01/15/98
From: CAREY BLOODWORTH                                      Time: 11:08pm
\/To: BOB STOUT                                           (Read 0 times)
Subj: Echo reunification

BS>FOR:            Dwindling FidoNet activity suggest consolidation.
BS>                Many programmers use both C and C++.
BS>                Many tyros don't know the difference.
Don't forget to add: Many compilers come with C and C++ together in a
single compiler.....  That tends to make it a single 'product' and makes
it easy for anybody to use plain C under C++.  Which is why so many
people don't know the difference.  (Or more accurately... why so many
people don't _care_ there is a difference.)
I don't think think of C and C++ as being two entirely separate
languages.  Even with new standards coming up, I still think of it some
what like Basic.  There are a lot of flavors ranging from the classic
line numbered, two letter variables, LET requiring Basic we all grew up
on, to today's modern Pascal'ish structured Basic.  But they are all
still Basic.  With C, you've got K&R C, ANSI/ISO C, two versions of C++,
plus an upcomming new C.  But it's all still 'C', just different
versions.  The 'OOP' is not C++.  That's just a programming method, not
a language itself.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0162
 * Origin: Jackalope Junction 501-785-5381 Ft Smith AR (1:3822/1)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00001 Date: 01/16/98
From: TIKA CARR                                             Time: 12:03am
\/To: DAVID J PORTER                                      (Read 0 times)
Subj: moderation and the echos

 DJP> It would be inconvenient having to figure out what was C and what
 DJP> was C++. It's hard enough as it is figuring out what is and isn't
 DJP> correct C without any more confusion being added.
While I can understand your concern, it's no secret that many FidoNet echoes
seem to be drastically less active than they used to be.  Many have joined
with other echoes as a result.  Who knows, maybe some day we'll see the
QUIK_BAS and VISUAL BASIC echoes joined in here and it all be called the
Programming Echo.  I hope that it doesn't have to come to that, but you never
know.  A good part is, sometimes things in one language can trigger an idea
which can help solve a problem being worked on in another language.  I don't
have any problem with scaning the subjects and picking what messages seem
interesting or relevent.  The traffic in both echoes combined really wouldn't
be that much to wade through, I don't think.  We'll see how it goes...  But I
am still all for joining the echoes at this point.  If some day the traffic
gets to be a lot, maybe they can go off into their own separate echoes again.
But in the mean time, it looks like this is the best solution.
Tika
... Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood it's ground.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00002 Date: 01/16/98
From: TIKA CARR                                             Time: 12:03am
\/To: BOB STOUT                                           (Read 0 times)
Subj: Echo reunification

 -=> Quoting Bob Stout to All <=-
<soapbox mode on>
 BS> IMHO, the arguments for and against reunification of the C and C++
 BS> echos boild down to:
 BS> FOR:            Dwindling FidoNet activity suggest consolidation.
This is one of my main concerns and one reason I'm all for merging the two. I
don't feel that the combined traffic will be too much to wade through that
folks should be able to pick out the threads they'd like to read. FWIW, I
heard from others that many other echoes are combining for the same reasons.
 BS> Many programmers use both C and C++.
I noticed that.. especially in things like using // for comments instead of
/* */. I find that // sometimes is easier. In things like Borland C++ 3.1, 
ou
can do ANSI type C programs, but also use some conventions that ANSI C 
oesn't
allow, like declaring variables in the middle of the program, or doing this:
  for(int i = 0; i < 10; i+=2)
where ANSI C doesn't allow you to init. a variable inside a for loop. And I
could make use of that kind of thing even though my program wouldn't even
contain one class object, etc.  (don't know much C++ so forgive if I get my
"proper terms" mixed up! ;) Normally, if I posted a program to the C Echo
(which I haven't made anything really good enough to post - yet), then I 
ould
most certainly not* declare variables anywhere but in the start of the
function, or some would really pick me apart (rightfully so! ;) However, if
the two echoes joined, maybe I could* get lazy and get away with it...  er...
or would that still be "proper coding"? For me, it's "convenient coding" 
hich
may not always be "proper"...?
 BS> Many tyros don't know the difference.
Not sure what you mean here. If it's anything like what I just described, 
hen
I would agree on that point. Some C++ type things just make things a bit
easier.
 BS> AGAINST:        The language standards are growing apart.
If I may for a moment refer to what I know most about... <G>
Look at GW-BASIC vs. QuickBasic. GW uses line numbers, QuickBasic is a
structured language. They use the same keywords some of the time, but
QuickBasic is VERY* different from GW in many respects. Not only do you have
modules, and no line numbers, you can compile to an EXE, you can use
libraries, you can interface with C and assembly programs maybe a bit* 
asier,
etc. You can even use GOTO (>>GULP! GASP!<<) Now you look at QB vs. Visual
Basic and go one  further. There are no READ or DATA keywords - that's done
away with. And Visual Basic may have similarities to QuickBasic but VB is 
OP,
and QB is not (inherently so). They too seem to have grown apart and became
very different. But what do they all have in common? They are all still 
ASIC.
Many keywords and their functions are the same.
So I figure it's the same with C vs.  C++.  Yes, C is not OOP and C++ is.  So
with QB vs.  VB.  But C and C++ are* similar, have the same keywords (C++ has
new ones and some new ways of doing things easier), and use pointers much the
same way (I expect??) So I am still under the asumption that C and C++ are
apart as GW-BASIC is apart from Visual Basic.  Yet to me, they are still
BASIC.  I can understand any of the BASICs (then again, I have programmed in
all of them.  :) Just that they are different "dialects" as we used to call 
t
way back in my TRS-80 days.
 BS> Topic clutter.
I haven't been in the C++ echo in awhile, but would the combined traffic be
that much? I usually scan the subjects and pick which threads interest me and
read them.  It's just a matter of picking things that are interesting.  Even
right now without the merge, I sometimes find topics here I'm not interested
in, so I don't read them.  I don't think it'd be much different than in the
old days of the C_Echo when there were lots* of messages to wade through.  
ut
that's only my experience (ie. with echoes that used* to be heavy in traffic)
 - may be different for others.
 BS> Confusion.
See above re: topic clutter - same reason. And when discussing the two, maybe
some should be more careful to note then the difference (ie. mention if 
ou're
using ANSI C, then don't init your variables anywhere but the beginning) or
when you post code, (and it should be a good habit anyway), state in the
comments whether it's ANSI C, or C++, or DOS, or GNU or what it needs/is for.
Like I say, those should be habit anyway.
And I haven't heard anyone complain of confusion even though you have C++ 
ode
and a touch of assembly in your SNIPPETS collection. :) In fact, I think it's
a good thing.
A rose by any other name is still a rose...
<soapbox mode off>
Tika
... In an alternate universe, I make sense!
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00003 Date: 01/16/98
From: TIKA CARR                                             Time: 12:03am
\/To: JACK RAATS                                          (Read 0 times)
Subj: Micro C v3.14

 -=> Quoting Jack Raats to All <=-
 JR> ICE STORM UPDATE!!     Monday January 12th, 1998
 JR>
 JR> Due to a major ice-storm in Eastern Ontario (including the Ottawa
 JR> area) we have been without power, and sometimes phones, since
 JR> Wednesday night January 7th, 1998.
Now how* (may I ask) did they get that on their web site without power or
phone?? <G>
I can concur though - luckily my immediate area never got hit, they are* hit
bad in that area. Some places may be without power until March* so the news
reports say.
So bad they couldn't/didn't make their C Compiler available through another
party as a backup (maybe west coast - and FTP there).
Tika
... MeoOWW SPLATT!  WooOOF SPLAT!  (Raining cats & dogs)
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00004 Date: 01/16/98
From: TIKA CARR                                             Time: 12:03am
\/To: NIGEL TRAVES                                        (Read 0 times)
Subj: Moderator election

 -=> Quoting Nigel Traves to Auke Reitsma <=-
 NT> Well I have a couple of suggestions for people to do the job.  These
 NT> are only suggestions and not actual nominations for a couple of
 NT> reasons.  The first reason is simply that I haven't contacted either
 NT> about this and it would be impolite to nominate someone behind their
 NT> back.
That's the whole point of a nomination. <G> I nominated the 3 I did without
contacting them first. They didn't seem to mind. <G>
 NT> The second reason is that I simply don't know for sure if the 2
 NT> people involved fulfill *all* the requirements for nomination.
Neither was I when I nominated them. One apparently wasn't (John). I know 
uke
qualifies (he's still thinking about it. <G>) and the one you also chose,
Kurt, is working on qualifying and he is* interested in the position as far 
s
I know.
So maybe Auke can take these as nominations too. :)
Tika
... Nine in Ten doctors believe Epoxy can be cured.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00005 Date: 01/16/98
From: TIKA CARR                                             Time: 12:03am
\/To: AUKE REITSMA                                        (Read 0 times)
Subj: One more nomination

I would like to add just one more to nominate before we go to vote. I would
like to also nominate Tom Torfs (since I see he's still around and is
accepting :)
Tika
... I can't use Windows.  My cat ate my mouse.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00006 Date: 01/16/98
From: TIKA CARR                                             Time: 12:03am
\/To: TOM TORFS                                           (Read 0 times)
Subj: SnipView for Windows

I want to comment on your SnipView for Windows program:
First, Nice Job! Much* faster than the DOS version. :) What compiler did you
use? Was this in C++ or mostly ANSI-ized?
The one thing I noticed was the about screen cut off some of the words
mid-sentance and only your first name shows (the 'm' in your name is slightly
cut off too). I was in Win95 in 800 x 600 hi-color mode, so I don't know if
that had much to do with it.
I liked the viewer and browser, but was wondering if you could make something
that would allow us to modify and (re) save the files (like a text editor) or
an option to load a file into a text editor (maybe in configuration of sorts)
so we could do some work on things if we want? Also would be nice to make a
configurable "compile" button where you can set up your compiler's command
line and then if you want to compile any of the code (or even run it) you
could from within the program. That would be handy for making separate
libraries, etc.
Just some ideas if you're up to it in the future. I already like what I see!
Thanks! :)
Tika
... I'm a pilot.  I pick it up here and pile it there.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00007 Date: 01/15/98
From: ``RICHARD CLAYPOOL``                                  Time: 09:28pm
\/To: ALL                                                 (Read 0 times)
Subj: pointers

> On Sun, Jan. 11, 1998, Jim Baxter said this: 
JB>0R: WWGTrt: REPLYTO 1:221/802 Jim Baxter
JB>o: All
JB>
TID: GE 1.11+
JB>    okay, i've been working with C for a few years now, and have recently
JB>gotten back into it.. pointers still confuse the living daylights out of 
e
JB>though, so could someone please explain to me how they work, what symbols 

JB>need use, and what they do, etc..
JB>
JB>that would be greatly appreciated..
JB>
JB>thanks
JB>
JB>---
JB>  MR/2 2.2 NR  Never assume.  It makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
JB>
JB>--- 
JB> * Origin: (1:221/802)
JB>
> My reply to this 
   i had asked that question not too long ago <smile>.  To put it simply, a 
pointer is a place in memory which can point to another location in memory.  
Iwon't try to explane it more for two reasons.  One, I'm still leaning about 
them and working with them and wouldn't wish to say anything wrong.  two, 
you're going to get some others who wil give much better exampls then could 
I. 
 
[Msg. Status] Reply Requested!
--- WWIVGate 2.00c
 * Origin: * Eagle's Dare * Laurel, MD * (301) 498-1984 (1:109/500)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00008 Date: 01/15/98
From: NORMAN DODGE                                          Time: 08:50pm
\/To: JOHN GARDENIERS, MICHAEL                            (Read 0 times)
Subj: CSPLIT

Hello John & Michael!
On 01-12-98, John Gardeniers wrote to Michael Stapleton:
 JG>             Hi Michael,
 -=> 07 Jan 98 17:16, Michael Stapleton wrote to John Gardeniers <=-
 JG>>> (line 94) Calculated CRC mismatch (0x0984):
 >>>>>>>>>>>> CSplit: End part 1/13 crc: 5c3c >>>>>>>>>>
 JG> See my earlier reply to Bob for the answer.
 JG>> How about seeing if you can incorporate your changes into the
 JG>> original in such a way that Bob can use it in Snippets?
 MS> Erm, that's what I did. :)
I have listened to this discussion for some time and I find it quit
interesting.  Could the problem be one of two things?  End of line
character being transmitted between different machines or perhaps the file
type generated between the two machines or perhaps the way it is
transmitted.  I have had very little trouble unsplitting Csplit files and
getting a error such as a CRC mismatch.  Of course I am doing this on an
Apple //gs which is over 10 years old.  Apple uses only a CR for end of
line character.
I have only had a CRC mismatch problem when I have sent files to others
and failed to send the file "BIN" I sent it as "TXT"
The Apple has the availability to create 255 different file types. If I
send a file to other people with different operating systems I have to be
sure that I send "BIN" so the file is not corrupted to them.
Just some thoughts maybe more questions than answers.
 * 2qwk! 2.04 *
--- FLAME v1.1
 * Origin: TechAlliance BBS Renton Wa. 206-277-6070 (1:343/133)
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FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 239 C LANGUAGE    Ref: F1L00009 Date: 01/16/98
From: NICK GRENFELL                                         Time: 12:40am
\/To: ROGER SCUDDER                                       (Read 0 times)
Subj: Pointer to a string

 > SA>>> Doesn't work if you're doing byte-copying to a string.
 > SA>>> memset(string,'\0',len); is prolly the fastest and safest way.
 > RS>>  I agree 100%!  Just putting a 0 in the first element
 > RS>>  can not be considered "clearing the string".  You must
 > FA> In theory i agree as well, as long as we both have the
 > FA> same idea of what a "string" is.
 > FA> In practice the first line in any function about to
 > FA> parse a "string" should
 > FA> be if(!*s) and the obligatory if(NULL == s)
 > FA> AFAIC a "string" failing those tests can be considered
 > FA> a "cleared string", and only sloppy programs failing to
 > FA> do the above tests will choke on it.
 > FA> If the function is doing byte operations on a char
 > FA> array the word "string" should not even come up.
 >  I guess I am confusing terms.    To me the word "clear"
 > means to set the whole item to null or maybe spaces.  When
 > someone tells me that terminating a string when there is
 > old garbage  still left after the null is clearing it....
 > I don't agree.
 >  if I have a string...
 >       city[13] =
 >       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 >       | P | h | i | l | a | d | e | l | p | h | i | a | 0 |
 >       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 >         0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   1   1   1
 >                                                 0   1   2
 >  and I place a nul at element 0, to me that doesn't "clear"
 > the string. It "terminates" it at the first element.  I still
 > own bytes 0 thru 12.  If I take a pointer, *p, and do p =
 > city; and  then later on ++p, what does *p reference?  If I
 > need to be sure that Philadelphia is never seen again, I
 > need to clear it out completely.
 >  It all depends on the situation...  Normally I terminate
 > strings with a single nul, but if I think I need to, I'll
 > use memset to wipe out the contents.
I don't know .. as long as you're going to be sure you terminate the string 
with a NUL byte each time you reset it, OR perhaps there may be a condition 
where there can be NO string available, 'wiping' it out shouldn't be 
necessary.
                                                    Nick
--- FMail/386 1.02
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