--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00011Date: 01/07/97 From: DAN DUNFEE Time: 08:52pm \/To: ALAN CONWAY (Read 1 times) Subj: IS BRAILLE STILL USEFUL? DD>> education, I feel that even now parents should be seeking the most DD>> comprehensive use of electronic media in education and getting the DD>> equipment which makes it possible for all blind kids. Nostalgia and DD>> familiarity are no longer a rational basis for using old technology, DD>> pencils and paper and stylus alike, for much longer. AC> I think this view is extremely shortsighted! Of course we are AC> attached to Braille as a writing system because, as you say, it is AC> ours. It is also true, however, that Braille still remains very AC> useful on a personal basis. Even if a bar code reader could be AC> used, few would be in a position to buy it due to the high AC> unemployment rates experienced by people with visual disabilities, AC> even in developed countries. A speaking watch can be gotten for under $15. The technology to read bar codes is common. Putting the two together is not a technological barrier, it is a difficulty of economics of scale. AC> I work as an interpreter for the Government of Canada. To do my AC> job, I occasionally have to consult documents written in bilingual AC> formats using French and English. To this point, synthetic speech AC> cannot be used for such tasks, since one version of the document AC> will undoubtedly be pronounced incorrectly. Only Braille gives a AC> totally blind person the kind of flexibility necessary to deal AC> with this situation. Multilingual speech is available now. It would be possible to change phonetic content in different languages as we now change set files for different applications. AC> Similarly, I think it can be very difficult for a blind person AC> who has never read Braille to entirely understand what a page of AC> text actually looks like when it is properly formatted. The sighted use visual clues to grasp spatial relationships. Others use touch and braille to do likewise. Touch and audible clues can orient the computer user. I have in mind a touch screen input device, available now. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 SW11977 * Origin: BlinkLink - Perceiving is believing! 412-766-0732 (1:129/89) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00012Date: 01/07/97 From: DAN DUNFEE Time: 11:58pm \/To: MIKE FREEMAN (Read 1 times) Subj: IS BRAILLE STILL USEFUL? MF> I'm afraid I must disagree completely. While computers and MF> electronic media are great (I program the monsters, after all), MF> they'll never supplant Braille. MF> To illustrate this, consider the typical computer installation. MF> How many do you know which do not have printers of various flavors MF> and capabilities? Damn few! If output written on paper is deemed MF> beneficial by the sighted, it is equally beneficial to the blind. I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic above. If files printed are to convey information effectively, that file can just as easily be accessed in the computer. It has nothing to do with equality, "if they get paper, I want paper too". MF> Also, consider that, short of using refreshable Braille displays MF> (in which case the user had better know Braille), computers cannot MF> readily teach to the point of reflex such skills as spelling and MF> good punctuation. There's nothing like seeing material in front MF> of one to make one aware of proper style and usage. Which means, of course, in it's strictest meaning, braille users are deprived of seeing it in front of them as well. This seems, at best a bald unproven assertion. Is there data to back up this? The spoken language was here long before writing systems. I suggest that style and good language usage originated there long before it was written. I have found that speech output is far superior an environment for spelling correction feedback. The human brain has millions of years of evolution to perfect picking out even minor differences of speech, and thus spelling. I often find errors of spelling and awkward syntax when proof reading print because they leap off the screen. Friends ask me to do this because they have come to recognize the edge speech gives me. MF> Now consider this: how likely is it that the sighted are going to MF> shift completely to electronic media? Not bloody likely. Why MF> should the blind be forced to do something sighted persons won't MF> do? As I said, how many truly "paperless offices" have you MF> observed? When educators will consent to us watching TV for our MF> entire education, then the blind might possibly be able to do MF> without Braille. It ain't gonna happen, folks. Why would we want to watch tv? While this view is politically appreciated in some circles, it has nothing to do with discerning which is the superior environment in which to learn, work, and most effectively use information. I don't care to ape what the sighted do if it forces me to not use the most effective educational and career tools available to the blind person. The absence of the paperless office is, in my experience, a product of traditional inertia and lack of imagination and not any failing of electronically stored information. Producing and controlling paper is equated with prestige and power. For those who get their jollies fondling paper, so be it. When all is said and done, there will be more of a level playing field for all when all have a medium in common. Producing redundant forms of non-mutually interpretable media is not even close to the kind of equality possible. The breaking down of information exchange and mutual accessibility barriers that such a common environment makes possible, is only inhibited by using paper in this outdated fashion, for all concerned. In my most recent job, I insisted that all paper versions of information be given to me on disk. This was easy to do because 99% of the paper originated in a computer file anyway. In time, the sighted realized the superior utility of this kind of exchange and began using computer files among themselves just as readily as paper. This was particularly the case where information was added to or the original file was to be edited. When I left, a network was being installed on which almost all work would be done in files. MF> Furthermore, computer technology has made Braille far more MF> available now than ever before. Why not take advantage of this? Why persist in teaching children and adults techniques using a technology to crudely and wastefully imitate an information system forced upon the sighted. We have an opportunity to not only be equal, we can jump ahead of the pack by using electronic and audibly recorded information technologies from the "get go". --- Via Silver Xpress V4.3 SW11977 * Origin: BlinkLink - Perceiving is believing! 412-766-0732 (1:129/89) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00013Date: 01/12/97 From: BILL KOPPELMANN Time: 05:51pm \/To: TAMMY KLAUS (Read 1 times) Subj: Buddy L list HI Tammy TK> I have recently jumped into the murky waters of the Internet, TK> and would like to subscribe to the Buddy L list. Murky waters is right, there's a lot to learn in those waters. Have you given Lynx a try yet? billscot@diac.com also on: N0JIO@Delphi.com and billscot@juno.com --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Wildcard BBS,Thornton,CO HST/V34+ +1-303-252-0491 (1:104/725) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00014Date: 01/12/97 From: BILL KOPPELMANN Time: 05:55pm \/To: OSCAR SOSA (Read 1 times) Subj: tamer news group HI Oscar OS> I didn't know that NetTamer had a newsgroup. Is it available OS> on the internet? Am not on Delphi. If it is available on OS> usenet, let me know Yes, it's a usenet group, and you can check it out under alt.comp.shareware.nettamer. Let me know if that works for you. billscot@diac.com also on: N0JIO@Delphi.com and billscot@juno.com --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Wildcard BBS,Thornton,CO HST/V34+ +1-303-252-0491 (1:104/725) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00015Date: 01/12/97 From: BILL KOPPELMANN Time: 05:56pm \/To: WALTER SIREN (Read 1 times) Subj: jfw dictionary HI Walter BK> for your who cares file, you might be interested to know that BK> I finally found out how to get the jaws acceptions dictionary BK> to work in windows. should you ever get to the point where BK> you need to know how, do let me know, as it is a bit tricky. WS> Ok, Bill, tell me how to be tricky. As I get to using windows WS> more, I will want to know. So start talking. Ok, you put the dictionary for the program you want to use it with such as eudora in the c:\jfw\settings\enu directory. You must also go in to the program and hit insert 6, and the 6 is not the one on the numpad. Go in there and set things up such as key repeat, and make sure that the dictionary is enabled. I forget which section you use to go in and do this, but they're all available as pull-down menus from the control center as I call it. Of course, you can not do a dictionary entry on the fly as you can with jaws, but that's not much of a problem, as you simply alt tab to your main windows area, and bring up something like notepad and it will do the job quite well for you. Oh, the dictionary works just like the dos one does, so if you have one already made up, then you simply rename it and copy it to the directory above, and you're in. billscot@diac.com also on: N0JIO@Delphi.com and billscot@juno.com --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Wildcard BBS,Thornton,CO HST/V34+ +1-303-252-0491 (1:104/725) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00016Date: 01/12/97 From: BILL KOPPELMANN Time: 06:03pm \/To: TAMMY KLAUS (Read 1 times) Subj: Win 97 HI Tammy BK> No, I'm not using '95 yet, my computer guru has said that he BK> doesn't think it's stable enough yet. However, recently he BK> got the latest '95 upgrade, and even he is pleased, and he's BK> not an easy one to please, believe me. TK> At least Microsoft is trying to improve it. I guess that's TK> what Win 97 is for, eh? Yes, I'd say so. It will be interesting to see if it will speak any better than '95 does. TK> I won't be afraid of the aliens. I will welcome them with TK> open arms. It will be nice having some intelligent life on TK> this planet for a change. BK> wow, I didn't expect to hear you say that. I will say though, BK> that TK> Why did that surprise you so much? I'm not really sure, maybe it's my old stuff around women, that females tend to embrace new ideas less than some of us men. I see what I get for not thinkin' to misquote an old song. billscot@diac.com also on: N0JIO@Delphi.com and billscot@juno.com --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Wildcard BBS,Thornton,CO HST/V34+ +1-303-252-0491 (1:104/725) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00017Date: 01/12/97 From: EDDY MORTEN Time: 06:06pm \/To: ALECIA DARIN (Read 1 times) Subj: Happy New Year Hello Alecia, AD> Sorry I got to long hehehehe....I tend to get carried away AD>about the AD>software that my husband writes:) anyway the program that AD>you were talking AD>about that your friend Viper wrote sounds great! What does AD>it do? does it AD>inlarge your letters on the screen? I amsure that if it does AD>it is a great AD>help:) I hate sometimes trying to read lowwer case as it is AD>sometimes hard AD>on the old eyes....well I guess I will let you go for now you AD>have a good one! Well, I have ZoomText (Large Print Program) which helps me to read on the monitor and sometime I feel too lazy to use ZoomText so I have magifty glasses to helps me to read on screen. About VIPER BBS, I believe it is for entertainment for blind and visually impaired people as well as sighted users. It has alot of echo which we have 2 echo of blindtalk, 2 echo of disabled information exchange and other many echo belongs to normal people that we are allowed to read/write to anybody in the North America and overseas as well. AD>Take care and God be with you. Thank you and same to you. Eddy, --- FMail/386 1.22 * Origin: VIPER BBS 604 433-3657 Vancouver B.C. (1:153/738) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1H00018Date: 01/12/97 From: HARVEY HEAGY Time: 08:29pm \/To: MIKE FREEMAN (Read 1 times) Subj: IS BRAILLE STILL USEFUL? In a message Mike Freeman typed to Richard Webb MF> I agree with you completely re Braille. However, I disagree about MF> the Braille 'N' speak. I find it to be a very useful device and I MF> don't *want* a laptop with me all the time. I also think the Braille and Speak is an excellent product. However, as one just now looking into a portable computer system it would seem to me that something like the Myna might do just as much as the bns without all the external devices. By the time you buy and hook up an external modem and an external disk drive to the Braille and Speak I would think you have spent the money for a notebook computer and you would have the advantage of having all those things contained within the package without worrying about all that external stuff getting damaged. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can shed some light on this subject. But again, I don't see the BNS in competition with any other portable computer product. Harvey --- msged 2.07 * Origin: The Metairie Point -- New Orleans, LA (1:396/1.13) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1I00000Date: 01/13/97 From: RAUL A. GALLEGOS Time: 04:58am \/To: PAUL GUIDO (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: opinion * Replying to a message in : MY_MAIL Hi Paul Guido, hope you are having a nice day 11-Jan-97 08:36:56, Paul Guido wrote to Raul A. Gallegos Subject: Re: opinion PG> i have to thank you because your answers PG> were exactly the answers i was looking for. in fact they were more than PG> i asked for i'm talking about your innput about the future trends. now PG> i can plan for them and won't lean towards the old technology. I'm glad you feel that way. By no means am I saying that dos is useless, however, how many commercial programs are being put out now that are dos based? And when they are, they look so much like a gui os that you might as well get a gui version and make it talk better. So. Good luck with what you find out. Also, if you have any more questions, let me know. You can write here, you can netmail me to 1:109/921.15 or email me to raul@pobox.com. Raul A. Gallegos --- Terminate 4.10a15/Pro*at * Origin: Terminate keeps full control of your sex life. ;-) (1:109/921.15) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 238 VISUAL DISABILIT Ref: E1I00001Date: 01/13/97 From: RAUL A. GALLEGOS Time: 05:48am \/To: BOB HUMBERT (Read 1 times) Subj: netcom Hi Bob Humbert, hope you are having a nice day 11-Jan-97 06:07:20, Bob Humbert wrote to All Subject: netcom BH> i'm poking along with my old 386 and i am avoiding windows and rats BH> (mouse) BH> as if they were the plague. even so, i wanted to serf the internet BH> like the big boys. i have an email account on compuserve, but BH> that's just about all compuserve is worth. Well, Compuserve is worth a lot more than that if you have Windows or if you use their doscim software. With doscim you can get on some web sites and actually to be honest, Compuserve is one of the most reliable Internet web browsing providors I've seen. I personally don't use Compuserve because of the cost, I'm on the Internet enough to warrent an unlimited account. BH> i phoned "netcom" and explained my situation to BH> their sales person. With Netcom, you can get a shell or a slip setup. With a shell, you use your favorite terminal software such as Commo or Terminate and have access to virtually everything on the web. I say virtually because you cannot take advantage of real audio and other multimedia sites. However, you can use lynx, irc, newsgroups and email plus many more. If you get a slip account with Netcom, you use their software which may or may not be friendly to you. I've heard both good and bad about Net Cruiser. To my knowledge it is only Windows based. One possibility, is you can go through an isp that offers ppp access. If you do this, you could use a dos based program like nettamer to get on with a ppp connection. Nettamer can be used with a 386 computer. Hope this helps and if you have any other questions, let me know. I'm always glad to help. One thing though, Windows is not as bad as some people make it out to be. I'm using Windows 95 successfully and have no problems. BH> i guess my question is: even though they claim to be the biggest, are BH> they the best for blinks? That depends on like I said above, what you want to do on the net. I myself used to be on netcom but I wanted to go into a ppp connection on the Internet and they could not provide this for me so I closed my account. Raul A. Gallegos --- Terminate 4.10a15/Pro*at * Origin: A Terminate a day keeps the doctor away ;-) (1:109/921.15)