--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00008 Date: 12/21/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 10:05am \/To: STEPHEN FRAZIER (Read 1 times) Subj: [1/2] AL/NL Stephen Frazier was seen kissing Large Marge and telling us: SF> Sure. They looked at it, discarded it as tacky, and forgot all about the SF> idea. You mean the NL? Sorry but it was the AL that had the original objection. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Support Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan for the HOF (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00009 Date: 12/21/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 10:06am \/To: STEPHEN FRAZIER (Read 1 times) Subj: AL/NL Stephen was waived by Sparky Anderson and then ranted: SF> Well, right now, neither Mitch nor Ryan are first basemen, and how many SF> of your DHs have led THEIR teams to a World Series as has the crime dog. Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield....Need I go on? SF> think of. You can replace a bunch of NL first basemen with your DHs, but SF> Ryan Klesko hit 34 homers this year. Replace that. Berroa, Jefferson, Delgado. Hmmm, why not put Baines and Canseco out there as well.:-) SF> In other wordsm the DH rule suits him just fine. As it would suit McGriff.:-) SF> Then you should have been LISTENING to it as well. Pithcers from both SF> leagues have done quite well over the years before the AL banned them SF> from the plate. Baloney. You might find a handful of pitchers who can hit but overall, far worse than any other position player. SF> Lemme see..Babe Ruth hit 49 HR, 130 RBI during the same period during SF> which his pitching record was 89-46. During that same period, he led the SF> league in more offensive categories than pitching. Looks like you're mixing stats to suit your purposes. First off, he had 230 RBI and for the years that he was EXCLUSIVELY a pitcher, he had 9 HR and 50 RBI. Still, he was an exception and NOT the rule. SF> Don Newcombe has 15 homers and 108 RBI and was the primary PH when SF> not pitching. Another exception. SF> Many other great hitting pitchers' records are lost to SF> most record books, probably to keep from embarrassing the prima SF> donnas who prance around today. No, they're NOT. Record books CLEARLY show pitchers' batting records when that's all they did. Most of the "good" hitting pitchers have been consistently hitting in the .160-.210 range and rare is the pitcher that puts in 400+ ABs and makes it to the .271 that Newcombe hit. SF> See if you can find any records on Bob Gibson, SF> Vernon Law or Karl Spooner. Jim Palmer hit a grand slam during SF> the World Series. Tony Cloninger once hit TWO grand slams in the SAME SF> GAME (has Alberto done that yet?), Babe Ruth didn't. God, I guess we'll have to throw his plaque out of the HOF because of that.:-^ AB H HR BA Gibson 1328 274 24 .206 Law 883 191 11 .218 Cloninger 621 119 11 .192 Palmer 489 85 3 .174 Spooner 34 9 0 .265 Spooner? I'd HARDLY say that 34 at bats qualify him. If you're going to elevate these guys and demote pitchers today, why don't you look up the records of guys who are pitching today. SF> Most of these guys were doing their thing while I was listening or SF> watching, but it's hard to find hitting records, since pitchers only SF> pitch these days. It's easy if you know where to look. SF> Tell me about it. What, exactly did he hit? Todd hit .227. SF> gripe was that the Braves' manager went a long way to giving them the SF> opportunity to show it. Stephen Look, he made some moves that didn't help but the Yankees WON the World Series. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Support Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan for the HOF (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00010 Date: 12/21/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 11:55am \/To: TERRY MAY (Read 1 times) Subj: hot stove The Braves traded Terry May to the Pirates for saying: TM> Irrelevant. You said they should have given him whatever he wanted. I TM> naturally assumed that would be an open-ended figure. Within reason. Damn, Terry, he wasn't asking that much more than what they offered and with what they've been throwing around to free agents (Two were supposed to be replacements for the second baseman that they traded away for Williams), they could have kept him, Vizciano and Kent. TM> So because Detroit and New York overpaid Fielder, the Red Sox should pay TM> more than they think Clemens is worth? New York had no choice as to what they paid Fielder and I thought we were talking about Belle. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Marge Schott, the cure for Baseball Fever (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00011 Date: 12/21/96 From: TOM YOUNG Time: 01:10pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Olerud trade Is Rico Brogna not going to be able to come back from his injury? I know they will be paying next to nothing for Olerud, but he has not shown any indication he'll come close to matching his career year. If they wanted a first baseman, why not try for McGriff or Big Daddy? If Toronto was willing to pay that much of his salary, you would have thought they could have got more for Olerud. --- SLMR 2.1a All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. * Origin: Dingle Delaware Austin, TX (512) 442-8145 (1:382/48) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00012 Date: 12/20/96 From: JAMES DUNLOP Time: 06:30pm \/To: STEPHEN FRAZIER (Read 1 times) Subj: [1/2] AL/NL In a message of to James Dunlop (1:3641/1.206), you wrote: JD> Florida is NOT a home run park. The NL has some extreme ballparks, JD> specifically the three others you mention, plus the Astrodome and JD> Dodger Stadium on the pitching side. Florida is a below average home JD> run park. SF> That has to be because th epitching is great there. If Atlanta is a SF> homerun SF> haven because of its low atmospheric pressure, then Florida, which is SF> lower SF> than that, should be as hot as Seattle. Since it's not, then it must be SF> something else. Any ideas? First off, the Florida stadium is essentially at sea level, Atlanta's is the second highest elevation in the majors (behind Colorado, of course.) The air pressure at Florida matches all other parks at sea level, and is the HIGHEST in the majors (with the others at the same elevation.) Secondly, the home run comparison has nothing to do with the pitching for a team. The comparison merely looks at the number of home runs hit in games involving the Marlins AT HOME and ON THE ROAD. SF> I think a short series wouldn't give the best indication anyway. It's SF> difficult to determine it, I guess, unless you get into the skill levels SF> the players. That's why I say you should judge the players by an age old SF> standard, instead of against each other. JD> And what age old standard is that? Of course, if you believe that a JD> .300 batting average in 1930 is the same as a .300 batting average in JD> 1968 (in terms of illustrating level of skill of batters), then we JD> might as well stop right now. SF> You are correct, but if you are going to say the difference is in the SF> pitching, then the same is true. I think we can rate a player over an SF> entire SF> career, including every player who ever played, and come up with a SF> standard by SF> which all players could be rated. We can rate center fielders against Mays SF> or SF> Mantle, Homerun hitters against Aaron, Shortstops against Ernie Banks or SF> Arky SF> Vaughn, Pitchers against Cy Young, and so on. Otherwise anyone can get SF> into SF> the Hall of Fame by just being the best of a particular five year eriod. SF> You SF> know, like it is today. And all the rest of the history of baseball, as well. --- The-Box Edit 1.10- PC * Origin: Dunlop Radial Point. Durham, NC. (1:3641/1.206) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00013 Date: 12/20/96 From: JAMES DUNLOP Time: 06:38pm \/To: STEPHEN FRAZIER (Read 1 times) Subj: AL/NL In a message of to James Dunlop (1:3641/1.206), you wrote: JD> You "confine" it to first base because it's the easiest position to JD> play, and the least damaging to put a Dr. Strangeglove there. SF> Personally, I think the DH fits that description. At any rate, you mean SF> that SF> the DH would only be able to play first base? How would we know, since SF> they SF> don't really have to play ANYWHERE? Oh, I agree that the definition fits the DH more than any other position. If you look at defensive positions as a "spectrum" with shortstop to the far left, as the hardest position, first base to the right as the easiest, DH would be to the right of first base. I don't mean that a player who is currently a DH would "only" be able to play first base, but that is the most likely place he would play, in order to least affect his team's overall defense. If you look at the games played by American League players, the vast majority of players who DHed played first or the outfield, rather than short or second. (The DH is also used to "rest" players, especially good hitting catchers, which is a bit different situation than our discussion.) JD> Anyway, the AL teams KNOW they have to have a DH (obviously), so they JD> structure their team that way. If they didn't have a DH, they JD> wouldn't have the same mix of players. And you'd fine some of those JD> "DHs" in the NL replacing the poorer first basemen (and occasional JD> left fielders, the next "easiest" position normally.) SF> I'm still waiting on that list of replacement first basemen from the AL. Well, let me look up the DHs in the AL. Murray, Canseco, Davis, Baines, Seitzer, Sierra, Vitiello, Jaha, Molitor, Fielder, Berroa, Martinez, Tettleton. I'd replace Eric Karros with half of these guys, or David Segui, or Greg Colbrunn, or Butch Huskey/Rico Brogna, or John Mabry, or Wally Joyner, or whoever SF had out there. That's about half the NL 1Bers I'd replace with about half of the AL DHs. (Canseco, Davis, Molitor, Berroa, Martinez (I'm trying to figure out why Molitor got the DH award rather than Martinez)) JD> What is your definition of "strategy"? The sac bunt? A double JD> switch? These moves, as Ed is trying to point out to you, are almost JD> automatic. MY definition of strategy is giving a manager a choice to JD> Ah, which NL pitchers are you talking about? Just how many pitchers JD> have more homers and RBIs than position players? Please, name the JD> pitchers who are better hitters than any position player (other than JD> Raphael Belliard, who makes Mario Mendoza look like a great hitter). SF> Babe Ruth had more homers while pitching than a truckload of position SF> players. SF> Don Newcombe was once walked to get to a leadoff hitter, Jim Gilliam. I SF> recall SF> at least once when the Pirates had their pitcher Vernon Law batting SF> cleanup. I posted a message yesterday with more stats. Babe Ruth's about the only exception. I THOUGHT you were talking about current pitchers. And I'll give you the .271 hitting Newcombe as a decent hitter, although picking a single example that we was walked intentionally is a pretty weak argument (for Newcombe, at least, there are much better arguments). You forgot Red Ruffing or Wes Ferrell (who's the Ferrell who should be in the HoF, rather than brother Rick). Anyway, about your others, Vernon Law, the .216 hitter with 11 home runs in 883 at bats? If he hit cleanup, the Pirates manager either picked his lineup out of a hat, or was crazy. Bob Gibson? .206 with 24 HR in 1328 AB. SF> I admit you won't find any such hitting pitchers around today, but that SF> was my point all along:) But by your argument, shouldn't the NL have all these great hitting pitchers, even now? You talked about the "lost" statistics on pitchers' hitting, but they aren't. They aren't commonly found, I'll give you. My little Franklin Baseball encyclopedia has them, as does Total Baseball, in limited form (total hits, plus batting average) for all pitchers other than a certain few that they give a full "hitter's" entry for. But lets look at the top "pitcher batting runs", which is TOTAL BASEBALL's calculations for contributions (by a pitcher) on offense. Babe Ruth, for example, is in 13th place lifetime, but that's because the catagory is cumulative, and he didn't pitch for that long a period. But let's look at the twentieth best on the list, Don Drysdale. The 20th best pitcher on the list has a lifetime .186 average, with 29 home runs in 1169 lifetime at bats. He had two decent seasons at the bat, one in '58 when he hit .227 with 7 HR, and 1965, where he did hit .300 also with 7 HR. (130 AB). Other than those two, below .200 for the rest. And he's TWENTIETH. --- The-Box Edit 1.10- PC * Origin: Dunlop Radial Point. Durham, NC. (1:3641/1.206) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00014 Date: 12/20/96 From: JAMES DUNLOP Time: 07:12pm \/To: STEPHEN FRAZIER (Read 1 times) Subj: NL Cy Young In a message of to James Dunlop (1:3641/1.206), you wrote: SF> Well, I know Lopez produced more offense than Perez, but then John and SF> Greg SF> are not the only pitchers pitching. Are you also saying then that run SF> production for EVERYONE but Maddux is up, since the lineup is basically SF> the SF> same for all pitchers but him? It is definitely lower for Maddux than for the rest. Runs per game: Glavine, 4.42, MAddux, 4.03, Smoltz, 5.11, Neagle 4.42 (I don't think this is just for the Braves, though), Avery 4.47. So the Braves scored at least 10% more runs for all other pitchers. This, I believe, has been fairly consistant over the past couple of years (that Maddux has significantly less run support.) SF> games started by Raffy and Greg. Belliard only plays when someone is urt SF> when the game is in the late innings. Regardless of who is pitching, the SF> shortstop hasn't contributed very much to the offense this year (I'm SF> counting Chipper as third base). Nice try, though. You don't think there's a significant difference between .245-.419-.356 and .169-.218-.179? (BA-SLG-OBP) That's the difference between Blauser and Belliard. (How about Blauser and .255-.319-.323? That's his next door neighbor on the field. When Blauser was able to play, he was better at the plate than Lemke or Pendleton.) That's a huge difference. SF> You know, you could also say that the reason Greg has such a low ERA is SF> because of Belliard, who made I think one error this year. We can take SF> these SF> figures anyway we want to. Ah, well. I guess one reason is as plausible as It's five, but that's less than 23, of course. But the difference with Belliard in the field is much less than his comparison at the plate. --- The-Box Edit 1.10- PC * Origin: Dunlop Radial Point. Durham, NC. (1:3641/1.206) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00015 Date: 12/21/96 From: JAMES DUNLOP Time: 11:34am \/To: TOM YOUNG (Read 1 times) Subj: Florida MARLINS In a message of to JAMES DUNLOP (), you wrote: TY> Thanks for the info regarding Colbrunn. I am a diehard Yanks fan, but TY> the Marlins are an enjoyable team to watch play. Is Veras going to TY> start at 2nd or is he on the block? I've gotta think they are going to TY> be an extremely poor defensive team at tha corners and wherever TY> Sheffield winds up. Veras will probably start at second...for San Diego. You will enjoy the smoke from Dustin Hermanson, the pitcher the Marlins got in return for Veras. Conine is a potential gold glove fielder at first, Bonilla will give it all he has at third, not that it helps all that much. Alou is a good fielder, allowing White to play the other two thirds of the outfield. --- The-Box Edit 1.10- PC * Origin: Dunlop Radial Point. Durham, NC. (1:3641/1.206) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00016 Date: 12/21/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 11:10pm \/To: PAIGE MILLER (Read 1 times) Subj: Interleague play Paige was hit by a Randy Johnson fastball for uttering: PM> are fans who won't go see (or watch on TV) a Dodgers-Giants game, is it PM> really likely that the same fan is going to turn on or attend a PM> Dodgers-Angels game? I'm not convinced. I don't think that the Dodgers-Giants game is a problem. It's the Dodgers-Pirates that more like it.:-) --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Marge Schott, the cure for Baseball Fever (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DGS00017 Date: 12/21/96 From: ALAN HESS Time: 08:41pm \/To: PAUL SEPPALA (Read 1 times) Subj: Clemens Whilst masticating on , Paul Seppala (1:3615/51) wrote to All: PS> Second, the Clemens' signing has really reignited interest here PS> in Toronto. The first reaction was that he couldn't be worth $8+ A correct reaction. PS> M but that has been quickly superceded by a "well, it's not my money" Who pays for tickets to Blue Jays games? It IS your money. PS> attitude. Judging by the optimistic projections, folks PS> here must expect Clemens to add around 10 wins to the Jays. This Clemens hasn't won more than 11 games in a season since 1992. Those folks are expecting the 1987 Clemens, and he no longer exists. PS> is Maddux 94/95 territory. I reckon the Jays are now a little PS> better than a .500 club which instantly puts them into WC contention. The Jays are definitely improved, but the addition of an 11 game winner isn't a major factor, IMO. --- MsgedSQ/2 3.35 * Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)