--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00024 Date: 11/07/96 From: PAUL SEPPALA Time: 10:07am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Labour (non)Deal So the owners voted down the deal put together by their own negotiator. Apparently even the Brewers voted against it. It looks like some owners are willing to risk another strike/lockout in hopes of getting their guaranteed profits deal. --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/25 * Origin: Westonia Computer Systems 1:250/636 (416)241-1981 (1:3615/51) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00025 Date: 11/07/96 From: TERRY MAY Time: 08:03am \/To: RUSS PAIGE (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Stoppers Re: _Stoppers_, Russ Paige wrote to Terry May on 05 Nov 96: RP> Good question. Steve Carlton won 27 games for the Phillies, in a RP> year that they were well under .500. They may have only won 60 games RP> for all I can remember. This is only about the 5th or 6th time I've gotten this message (along with all the other ones from you that surround it).... ... Cy Young Ballot: [x] John Smoltz [ ] Kevin Brown [ ] Greg Maddux --- JetMail 0.99beta22 * Origin: *[Rebel BBS]-[Las Vegas]-[HST/V32b]-[702/736-2822]* (1:209/745) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00026 Date: 11/08/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 09:30pm \/To: RUSS PAIGE (Read 2 times) Subj: The Owners RP> You're offering a half-truth at best. Are you trying to tell me that RP> the Pittsburgh Pirates are making money? The worst that any team is doing is paper losses. With what they get back in taxes, even the most "unprofitable" team makes money. RP> Free agent salaries have inflated payrolls to the point where the RP> payroll alone exceeds the total operating expenses of 10 years ago. Of course, revenue also exceeds what it did 10 years ago. RP> Media? You mean the press? Is the press paying free agents? Don't act like you don't know. The media, TV and radio, pay them a pretty good sum of money. It may not be NFL-type money, however, it's better than they deserve. RP> Do you mean merchandisers? You completely lost me on this line of RP> --ahem--reasoning. I didn't even mention it but they did make money, albeit less than before, in merchandise. RP> Huh? Isn't that kind of backwards? Baseball pays what it can afford. Take way media income and they will lower salaries (and players won't have a choice but to accept what they're offered). RP> I have no idea what you mean by "profit maximization. Please RP> elaborate. I'm talking about teams like Montreal that claim hardship and yet, manage a $7.1 mil profit BEFORE they fill out their tax returns. Rather than funnel that into re-signing their free agents, they cut salaries even more in a effort to make even more profit. Those kind of teams don't deserve revenue sharing. RP> We'll see how it works out for San Diego. It worked enough for them to make even more money this year than they did last year (and they WILL make more profit) and they should see an increase in revenue next year. RP> Despite success on the field, the Oakland Athletics eventually had to RP> unload most of their high profile/high salary players. Canseco, RP> Henderson, Eckersly, Stewart-- Baloney. NOT ONE of the people that you mentioned were let go because of economic reasons. Stewart and Henderson (this last time) were allowed to leave because what they wanted wasn't in line with what the team felt they were worth. If they were still playing at the same level as they had been playing previously, Oakland wouldn't have thought twice about re-signing them. Canseco was traded for players that made MORE than he did and Eckersley was traded because LaRussa wanted him (and he would have been retained if LaRussa hadn't made the offer). RP> Sure, Oakland treated the Raiders very well. Sued the Raiders in 1982 RP> and lost, at great expense. They sued the Raiders AFTER they made it know that they were going. If they had given Davis what he wanted, they would have spent far LESS and they wouldn't have been thrown out of office years later when they tried to get Al to come back and the voters felt that the money was better spent on other areas of the city. RP> You need to reread your NFL history texts. In 1982, when the RP> Oakland Raiders left Oakland, Al Davis had not made any complaints RP> whatsoever to the City of Oakland/Alameda County. He had made money RP> hand over fist there for the entire time he owned the team (which, if RP> I'm not mistaken, is the entire time the team has existed). Sorry, Russ, but you're way off. First off, Al didn't own the Raiders for many years and the team lost a lot of money during its early years (They wouldn't have made it if the AFL hadn't bailed them out). In the second place, Davis asked for renovations and luxury boxes in order to stay in Oakland. The problems with the game lie squarely with the owners and NOT the players. The players have bent over backwards to get an agreement and the owners have blocked it at every turn. When the owners get their act together, the game will be back on track (Like that's ever going to happen soon). --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Where did you go, Joe Charboneau? (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00027 Date: 11/08/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 09:33pm \/To: CALEB KIM (Read 2 times) Subj: Hmmm CK> I think we'll probably see lots of controversy if Hentgen gets it. I I don't see how you can be against Hentgen because he had a year that was every bit as good as Pettitte. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Johnson and Norm, then pray for a storm (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00028 Date: 11/08/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 09:34pm \/To: HANNES ZIERY (Read 2 times) Subj: Red Sox Hannes Ziery gave up a long homer to Otis Nixon and said: HZ> I hope you`re wrong for the 97 season I didn't say anything about 97. If he does it, he does it. I'm not wishing him bad or good. I'm merely pointing out where he falls short of a guy like Aguilera. HZ> Do you think Canseco will stay in Boston? He says that he wants out but right now, there's no telling where he will go. Kennedy deserves a chance to manage again but it may take a few years before he gets another shot. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Support Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan for the HOF (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00029 Date: 11/10/96 From: MARK YODER Time: 11:30pm \/To: TERRY MAY (Read 2 times) Subj: Congrats Joe & Wade Terry May caught a foul-tip in the mask for saying: CK>>> I'd rather see the face of that arrogant brat, Costas. Also why CK>>> use McCarver for the WS??? MY>> MY>> He was unemployed, since CBS didn't have anything to do during MY>> October... TM> Actually, Costas works for NBC. I was referring to McCarver. Obviously Costas works for NBC, as he did the LCSs for them. CK>>> Fox also a lot of shabby affiliations, too, I hear. MY>> Like who/what? TM> They're still on weak UHF channels in many areas, and not on at all in TM> some areas. That's why it's virtually impossible for Fox to have the TM> same ratings as the Big 3 for a given event, because they're not on a TM> level playing field. They are closing the affiliation gap more and more TM> each year, though. Ah.. I was thinking of "affiliations" in a more literal sense, rather than "affiliates" as in network affiliates. -= .\\ark =- ... "Modesty died when false modesty was born." Mark Twain --- GoldED/2 2.50+ 1547US3 * Origin: Cubbies Forever! (1:3634/22) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00030 Date: 11/10/96 From: TERRY MAY Time: 05:30pm \/To: RUSS PAIGE (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Antitrust exemption Re: _Antitrust exemption_, Russ Paige wrote to James Dunlop on 10 Nov 96: RP> If what you say is true, then there would also be an antitrust exemption RP> in place for the NFL. Yet there is not. The NFL acts as a monopoly--it RP> has player drafts, for instance--what other industry has drafts for RP> entry-level candidates who then cannot talk to competing companies RP> within the industry? Actually, they can. There's nothing stopping them from talking to teams from the CFL (or the USFL or WFL when those leagues existed). The NFL is like one big corporation, with each team a separate branch. ... Atlanta Braves - Five straight division titles! --- JetMail 0.99beta22 * Origin: *[Rebel BBS]-[Las Vegas]-[HST/V32b]-[702/736-2822]* (1:209/745) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00031 Date: 11/10/96 From: JOHNNY HENDERSON Time: 02:50am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Roger Did anyone hear about Roger Clemens wanting to play for the Texas Rangers? I heard the end of some report on ESPN and thought that was said. ... I'm a High-tech Redneck! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: City Lights <612-633-1366> <12 LINES> <28.8 D/S> (1:282/108.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00032 Date: 11/09/96 From: STEPHEN FRAZIER Time: 11:50pm \/To: PAUL SEPPALA (Read 2 times) Subj: Labour (non)Deal -=> Quoting Paul Seppala to All <=- PS> So the owners voted down the deal put together by their own PS> negotiator. Apparently even the Brewers voted against it. It looks PS> like some owners are willing to risk another strike/lockout in hopes of PS> getting their guaranteed profits deal. I'm with the owners all the way. The only way I would agree to share profits with the players is if the players agree to a pay cut if I lose money or if they have a bad year. Perhaps the owners are indeed trying to break the union, and I wish them ll. I heard that both groups have asked congress to retract the anti-trust provision granted MLB. BRAVO! I don't know why the players want it, but for the owners it would allow them to run their clubs as a regular business. If that happens, the salaries will drop like a soccer mom's bloomers at a Clinton rally. Stephen --- * Origin: Default Origin Line (1:360/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DFJ00033 Date: 11/10/96 From: JAMES DUNLOP Time: 11:51pm \/To: RUSS PAIGE (Read 2 times) Subj: Antitrust exemption In a message of to James Dunlop (), you wrote: -> RP> That's true, Allan, but you are forgetting that MLBaseball is -> not a free RP> market. If I want to watch lower-priced Major League -> Baseball players, RP> I have no options. It is illegal in this -> country to organize a second RP> Major League Baseball. -> It is NOT illegal to organize another major league, and if you really -> think it is, you are way, way off base. What the anti-trust -> exemption that the existing major league baseball has means is that -> it is essentially allowed to operate as a monopoly. That being said, -> if somebody else wanted to start up a new league, they wouldn't be -> able to call it "Major League Baseball", but they could indeed start -> the league up. RP> If what you say is true, then there would also be an antitrust exemption RP> in place for the NFL. Yet there is not. The NFL acts as a monopoly--it RP> has player drafts, for instance--what other industry has drafts for RP> entry-level candidates who then cannot talk to competing companies ithin RP> the industry? RP> The antitrust exemption for MLBaseball makes it different from any other RP> major league sport. That is what makes it all the more amazing that the RP> owners are so intent on bankrupting this industry which has the trongest RP> protection from competition of any industry in the world. RP> No one could start a competing major league (small case) baseball RP> organization. The Supreme Court (misguidedly) ruled so. Perhaps you'll cite the court ruling in this matter? Probably not, since it doesn't exist. What the Supreme Court ruled in Flood v. Kuhn was that the reserve clause that allowed teams to trade baseball players (and restrict contracts) was allowed, due to the previous decisions by the court that baseball was exempt from the antitrust laws. (The reserve clause portion regarding "lifetime" contract restrictions was the point that Messersmith and McNally sucessfully fought against in 1975, winning free agency after playing out the "option" year.) NONE of this prevents, or has EVER prevented another major baseball league from forming. To NFL and the draft briefly. The participating companies (teams) have a working agreement with each other (without which they wouldn't have a business, since they can't play themselves very effectively) and with their labor union to allow the entry draft, among other employee restrictions. (These, of course, are much freer than they used to be.) This is true with ALL of the major sport leagues. None of this restricts another league from forming. What has happened in these other sports is that some people with some money decided that they'd like to own a major sports team, the existing league didn't let them, and so they formed their own league. Thus, the AFL, WHA, ABA, WFL and USFL, some more sucessful than others, of course. The only reason it hasn't happened in baseball is money and effort, not laws. Let me rephrase what I said. The courts have agreed that Major League Baseball operates as a monopoly, and is exempt from certain anti-trust provisions, due to a (questionable) precedence that dates back to the 1920s. This ruling does NOT mean that somebody else can't start up another league, and in fact, that's what somebody is trying to do. If it was "illegal" to do so, the new league would have been stopped at the start (when it was first proposed back in 1994) rather than withering on the vine right now due mostly to market conditions. --- The-Box Edit 1.10- PC * Origin: Dunlop Radial Point. Durham, NC. (1:3641/1.206)