--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00008 Date: 08/17/96 From: JAMES DUNLOP Time: 02:55pm \/To: TAL RON (Read 2 times) Subj: Relief pitching In a message of to Ed Grinnell (), you wrote: EG> Three innings is one criteria of a save. TR> I really doubt it (I'm not sure though). Fetters and the rest come in the TR> 9th. Maybe you mean 3 outs? No, three innings. A save is awarded if a relief pitcher is the last pitcher for the team that wins and he does at least one of these things: pitches with the tying run on deck, pitches at least one inning with a lead of three runs or less, or pitches three innings "effectively". --- The-Box Edit 1.10- PC * Origin: Dunlop Radial Point. Durham, NC. (1:3641/1.206) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00009 Date: 08/18/96 From: DAVID LENTZ Time: 12:08pm \/To: PAUL SEPPALA (Read 2 times) Subj: Relief pitching Paul, In a letter to MARTY BLAISE , you wrote: PS>-> That is true, I guess the absolute least likely candidate then for a PS>-> Cy Young Award is the middle relief pitcher or the mop up guy. The PS>-> middle guy comes in early when the starter gets bombed, and may or PS>-> may not finish the game. You are so true about the wins for PS>-> relievers. I guess, we should look at "blown saves" or protected PS>-> wins, etc. rather than wins, or specialized types of saves. What do PS>-> you think about ERA being a factor for relief pitchers??? Go Astros PS>-> (Virginia Astros next year???)! PS>As a matter of fact, I doubt we'll ever see a middle reliever even come PS>close in the CY voting. PS>Blown saves ought to be considered in evaluating closers, though you PS>also ought to consider a split between easy, normal and tough saves, as PS>does Stats Inc in the anual Baseball Scoreboard (the categories depend PS>on how close the game is, how many outs there are and how many runners PS>are on when the reliever enters. PS>ERA is better than W-L for all pitchers, including middle relievers, but PS>somewhere you have to factor in how the pitcher handled any inherited PS>runners and how lucky/unlucky he was with any runners he left on. Well stated. I on offer one minor bit of disagreement. With regards to luck, I think a player can be either lucky or unlucky in the short run. However on a career basis, I assume that the luck averages out and I disregard luck in evaluating careers. Happy Modeming -- David --- * KMail 3.10m Knight Moves --- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00010 Date: 08/18/96 From: DAVID LENTZ Time: 12:12pm \/To: PAUL SEPPALA (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Hmmm Paul, In a letter to TAL RON , you wrote: PS>-> The Brewers had no choice. They lost all their players to PS>-> free-agency the last few years. Surhoff, Hamilton, Molitor, PS>-> Sheffield, etc. This year they were going to lose Vaughn, and made a PS>-> smart trade. The Brewers did NOT have the money to resign them. I PS>-> don't have the facts and figures to support this, but I know if you PS>-> look at income over the past 3 years, the Brewers are not high on PS>-> this list. PS>I've been following this thread for a while and there's a point of Ed's PS>that you haven't fully addressed. PS>Player salaries can be looked at as investments, not expenses. You seem PS>to be assuming that each team has a fixed amount it can spend on player PS>salaries. This implies that there's no financial return on this PS>spending and therefore the clubs should be trying to minimize salaries PS>to maximize profits (or minimize losses if you take some owners at their PS>word). PS>OTOH, if you look at salaries as investments, spending an extra $10 M on PS>hiring a couple of key free agents or keeping a popular local star could PS>means more wins, participation in a pennant or wild-card race and PS>increased revenues with increased attendance. I only offer comments about your suggestion that player's salaries were investments and not expenses. I can see your point. The better quality players you have the better your team and hopefully the better your return. However I still disagree with referring to player's salaries as investments. They are expense, hopefully ones that will be well spent. An owner gives a player a contract in hope of a productive season. After the expiration of the contract, the owner is left with no tangible asset. A player's salary is more like rent than an investment. The owner is renting the store front and not buying the building. True that all players are not equal and all salaries are not equally valuable. Happy Modeming -- David --- * KMail 3.10m Knight Moves --- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406 * Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00011 Date: 08/18/96 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 10:22pm \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Uh... * Crossposted in NBA_ECHO * Crossposted in ML-BASEBALL * Crossposted in SPORTS Well, if you sent me a message and haven't gotten a response, send it again. My hard drive ate my message base so I'm back to ground zero. In the immortal words of Keith Overblow -- GYAH! --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: On the 7th day, God vomited the Clippers (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00012 Date: 08/18/96 From: TERRY MAY Time: 08:03pm \/To: ED GRINNELL (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Relief pitching Re: _Relief pitching_, Ed Grinnell wrote to Terry May on 14 Aug 96: EG> Terry May gave up a long homer to Otis Nixon and said: EG> TM>> I thought you had to pitch three innings or something like that to get TM>> a Hold. Or am I thinking of something else? EG> EG> Three innings is one criteria of a save. I know that, but I still thought there was a minimum innings for the Hold. ... PITCHERS.BAT found! Delete DH.SYS (Y/y)? --- JetMail 0.99beta22 * Origin: *[Rebel BBS]-[Las Vegas]-[HST/V32b]-[702/736-2822]* (1:209/745) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00013 Date: 08/18/96 From: TERRY MAY Time: 08:05pm \/To: BRUCE MARSHALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Surprise team of the Re: _Surprise team of the_, Bruce Marshall wrote to Chris Waldrop on 16 Aug 96: BM> I have to disagre there, the (fighting) Montreal Expos hav to be the ood BM> surprise team of the year and Baltimore and the Marlins have to be the BM> worst surprise team of the year. If only Baltimore still had Johnny Oates. :^) ... (^:b Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery d:^) --- JetMail 0.99beta22 * Origin: *[Rebel BBS]-[Las Vegas]-[HST/V32b]-[702/736-2822]* (1:209/745) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00014 Date: 08/17/96 From: TAL RON Time: 10:29pm \/To: PAUL SEPPALA (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Hmmm PS> Player salaries can be looked at as investments, not expenses. You seem PS> to be assuming that each team has a fixed amount it can spend on player PS> salaries. This implies that there's no financial return on this PS> spending and therefore the clubs should be trying to minimize salaries PS> to maximize profits (or minimize losses if you take some owners at their PS> word). Ok, let me put this another way. The Brewers have let some key players go. For the sake of argument, let's assume it's their fault. The Brewers live in a city with metropolitan of around 1.5 million. They don't have the big names, they don't win, they dont' get income, meaning losing more players (not enough money to pay contracts), and restarting the cycle Now, let's say the Yankees give up Paul O'neill, Wade Boggs, Cecil Fielder, and Derek Jeter. Sure, they're gonna be a bad team. Sure, they're gonna lose some games. But in a city with a metropolitan of around 14 million, there's gonna be diehard fans, and just people who decide to go to the ballgame, drawing large attendences and revenue. That leads to signing the big free agents in the off-season, and rebuilding the team What I'm trying to say is, this cycle could continue for a long time, until some good draft picks become major |leaguers. Without revenue sharing, the Brewers will be 'losers' for 5-10 years down the line. Sure, even though I don't know where the Brewers would've gotten the money to sign all those free agents they lost, they should have a chance to be competitive right away. Tal --- CNet/3 * Origin: SD][ (608)257-1852 22 lines of pure excitment! (1:121/63) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00015 Date: 08/17/96 From: TAL RON Time: 10:32pm \/To: PAUL SEPPALA (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Surprise team of the year PS> What about Minnesota? The probably won't make the post-season but who'd PS> have thought they'd even be close to .500 without Puckett? As of late, Minnesota and Baltimore have really been putting a charge for the Wildcard and the Chisox. The Orioles were supposed to win the division or take the wildcard, and just didn't live up to expectations. The Twins, man, I don't know what's happened to them. I think they could really give the Chisox a run for their money, or the complete opposite and just start losing. This is one of the most unpredictable teams, along with the Brewers and Angels Tal --- CNet/3 * Origin: SD][ (608)257-1852 22 lines of pure excitment! (1:121/63) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00016 Date: 08/18/96 From: TAL RON Time: 10:10am \/To: DAVID LENTZ (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Ozzie Smith, an All-star!?!?!? DL> I don't like the term closer, and seldom use it. However John Wetteland DL> is only the second best relief pitcher on the Yankees. The Yankees best DL> relief pitcher is Mariano Rivera. First time I heard his name on here I thought it was local talk. Then, yesterday of Fox, they mentioned that he is a candidate for the Cy Young! Can somebody post his stats? I really never heard of the guy until I saw his name here. So, which Yankee will win the AL Cy Young? Or will it be Mr. Nagy? =) Tal --- CNet/3 * Origin: SD][ (608)257-1852 22 lines of pure excitment! (1:121/63) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 234 BASEBALL Ref: DCN00017 Date: 08/18/96 From: TAL RON Time: 10:11am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Balk Ok, thanks for clearing up the balk issue for me Tal --- CNet/3 * Origin: SD][ (608)257-1852 22 lines of pure excitment! (1:121/63)