--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EES00011Date: 10/22/97 From: PATRICK GORMLEY Time: 10:20am \/To: AL AND NASHA SINCLANTON (Read 0 times) Subj: we'll miss state convention Al we won't be in Hagerstown. We've had pregnancy complications and as az result, Tina will have to have a dnc done which will mean we'll miss our first state convention in 21 years. --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EES00012Date: 10/22/97 From: LEE KERR Time: 04:28pm \/To: ANDY BARACCO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Andy's straw men was resolution 97.016:28:4210/22/97 Hi andy, who is the Tuscon directoer? There are 3 directors here ini Tucson, one for each of the offices. I know all of them, and have for some years. As I saidf, I do know as you have admitted, that the talks did take pleace, and that I did not know the results. At any rate, the talks took place between the E. E. S. and v. a. I hope nothing comes of it, the vts need the facility, they don't ne4d anyone else taking their palces. The vets have the right to those centsrs, and non vetts should not be there. Another thing is that we need canters whitch wou ld havethe proper outlook onn blindness. I have been told that va will not teach Braille until a person has little or no visi9on. This is a big mistake. as several vets I know have foujnd out. A second point as to why we should not be there is that as was stated iin a post by another person on th is echo is that there aren't many or posibly any disabled persons hired by va in their vending facilities. . AGAIN who are you calling the Tucson director???????? Agaiin reminding you that I know the people here. Lee --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EES00013Date: 10/22/97 From: DAVID ANDREWS Time: 10:07pm \/To: MIKE FREEMAN (Read 0 times) Subj: MODIFIED MENUS q ? MF> What about thems of us who liked the menus the old way? (grin) Well, my first impulse was to say that you and I are out of luck. But on second thought, if you change your menus to hot flash, they should be more like they were, and you won't have to push return after each command. the downside is that if there is line noise that causes spurious characters, things can go in interesting directions. Sorry for the changes, but you will get used to it, I suppose. David Andrews, SysOp and Moderator --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EET00000Date: 10/23/97 From: DAVID ANDREWS Time: 10:16pm \/To: MIKE FREEMAN (Read 0 times) Subj: MODIFIED MENUS MF> What about thems of us who liked the menus the old way? (grin) Hi Mike: There has been a change to the menus yet again. If you set your help level to r regular or e expert, from the c h change menu, which is off the main Menu, then the menus are the same as always, . So you can have them back. It is now only the Novice Menus that are more explanatory. daivd andrews --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EEV00000Date: 10/20/97 From: AL AND MASHA STEN-CLANTON Time: 08:29pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Readers and privacy From: Al and Masha Sten-Clanton Subject: Re: Readers and privacy Hi, Denise! I concur with my wife, Masha. I hope an additional comment or two will be useful. I think I understand what you think may be the danger of raising the privacy issue too loudly. When a blind friend and Federationist was being considered for internships, the potential employers sometimes raised concerns about confidentiality, especially when they were discussing who should hire his readers. We clearly don't want to leave room for the notion that hiring a blind lawyer--or other professional--will somehow detract from the professional relationship because that blind professional happens to use a reader. (If this is not what you're thinking of, or part of it, please correct me.) I never had much patience with those arguments. As far as I know, when I practiced law, the people I hired or used as volunteers were under the same obligation to protect a client's privacy as I was, whether they were reading for me or doing a more typical job in a lawyer's office. And, as far as I was concerned, it made no difference whether I was on my own or working for somebody else. To have it otherwise would indeed have put me on a lesser footing than my peers, making it only too understandable why somebody wouldn't want a blind attorney. Incidentally, I haven't practiced law for a long time and haven't thought much about this business for equally long. Any attorney who sees the need to correct my notions should feel free to do it. Anyway, one way to think of the privacy issue is that it differs with the circumstances. It often is necessary for one or more of an attorney's employees to know the things the attorney knows about the clients. It is not necessary for those staff members to know what the attorney does in the voting booth, however; most often, they probably won't. The privacy issues themselves are somewhat different. Clearly, we blind folks will need to use readers as long as the print-reading gismos can't read handwriting or some kinds of print, unless all written communications become electronic. Even if all becomes right in the world of access technology, I expect that there will be some people who'd rather use readers anyway. This is fine. I'd like to live in a world where I need no readers if I can, however. This is in no way to denegrate the excellent readers I've been lucky to have. It's only to say that the more I can do for myself the better off I am--which is why I use Braille, and why I travel with a cane or guide dog. I regard this issue as part of the larger matter of when do we call upon others to modify the world for our access or safety needs. I think we've generally been wise to presume against such modifications, but I also think we've sometimes taken it too far or in the wrong direction. We've fought hard for Braille books, but, as far as I can tell, not very hard at all for accessible ATMs or voting methods. The right to a secret ballot and the ability to take care of business privately at an ATM are as important to blind people as to sighted people. That there doubtless will be some extra cost shouldn't matter, since that has never deterred us in our battle for Braille. I certainly don't know that the technology to give us these aspects of privacy would be far enough along had we pushed harder for it, but it probably would be further along than it now is. I'm heartened by our increasing focus on trying to make sure that new wonders of technology don't become less and less usable by blind people. I hope this effort can be part of fine-tuning our presumtion against modifying the world: I like that presumption, but I think our implementation of it could improve. Well, I hadn't intend to broaden the issue you raised, but I don't think it's off the track. Thanks for considering what I've said. Peace! Al --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EEV00001Date: 10/20/97 From: JENNIFER KOCH Time: 11:31pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Readers and privacy From: Jennifer Koch Subject: Re: Readers and privacy I feel the same way about privacy at the poles. I often feel that the reader will make some kind of judgment on me because of the person for whom I vote. Even if they don't say it, they must be thinking something. A mistrusting part of me wonders if they write down what I tell them to. I think they do, but sometimes i wonder. I think it's a good idea to have a person whom you don't know really well fill out the balad. That way you don't have to worry about what they are thinking and the judgments they may pass. I think that would be really awesome if they make the balads accessible to us. it really would be an easy job! They could just scan the balad and print it out in braille. --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EEV00002Date: 10/20/97 From: BILL REIF Time: 12:54pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: responsibilities of leadership From: Bill Reif Subject: responsibilities of leadership On 1997-10-20 Harvey Heagy said: >I'll give you an example of what I am referring to. Now this is a >very miner issue in comparison to the stakes we have to deal with >on the national level, but it illustrates my point. In 1983, I >was president of the Houston Chapter as well as in charge of the >Houston/Austin chapters charter bus to the nac tracking in >Jackson Mississippi. On our way back, I consulted with the bus >driver on the proper way to proceed regarding the purchase of >food for the return trip which was about 8 hours for the Houston >people na 3 hours longer for the Austin people. We advised the >people to stop at a super market before we left Jackson since we >would be hitting a lot of dry areas along the way wherein stores >would be closed and those who wanted alcoholic beverages would >not be able to purchase them. After putting it to a voice vote, >most people wanted to drive on so we did. After a while they got >hungry and thirsty and we had to keep getting on and off the >interstate to look for places where food and drinks could be >purchased. By the time we finally found one, we lost a lot of >valuable time and since the outlet was a convenience store type >things were a lot more expensive. People then complained about >the prices and the time lost whereas if they had listened to >those who knew the situation they would not have faced this >situation in the first place. >The point is I let them have their way even though I knew it was >not in their best interest. Sure there were some disgruntled >people who continued to blame me for what happened, but you can't >win with that type anyway. It seemss to me like you abdicated your responsibility as leader, trading the comfort of both driver and passengers for a little personal popularity, and the chance to let people experience that good feeling, (which proved to be short-lived in this instance) that comes with being asked to participate in a decision, however ill-informed one happens to be. With the facts at your disposal, there was almost nothing to gain by putting such a procedural matter to a vote. You should have been willing to confer on those over whom you had charge, for this limited purpose, the benefits of your superior knowledge of the situation. The consequences of your failure to act in accord with good sense far outweighed the minimal good putting it to a vote achieved; and while you could thus not be blamed for a bad decision, I doubt it increased your popularity to the degree you imagine. The example you give in this post, perhaps better than anything we have said, illustrates the inherent problems that would result if matters that are essentially administrative are decided by a membership that is almost certainly less informed of the considerations relevant in making a decision. Matters of organizational policy and statements of organization philosophy are quite different, as they involve the direction in which the leaders, who work for the membership, will take the organization. Most of your complaints about the allegedly heavy-handed tactics of NFB leadership involve their insistence in implementing various procedures by which conventions are conducted, programs administered, or resources expended. For the same reasons you would not second-guess every action a driver would take in getting you somewhere, (unless he/she was obviously lost) so, you should have enough trust in the NFB leadership and its staff to let the president preside and let administrators administer. Should their judgement consistently prove inadequate, (as judged by a sufficiently large portion of the membership) you and the NFB would be better off were they removed than we would be assuming all their duties or second-guessing all their actions. If I believed such second-guessing was usually necessary, I would have no need of the organized blind movement and could simply do my own research, form my own opinions, and act toward legislators or through letters to the editors as I saw fit. It would be easier than quibbling with the leadership over every trivial matter. Bill Reif Springfield, Illinois Mencken's Metalaw: For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong. Net-Tamer V 1.10 - Test Drive --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EEV00003Date: 10/21/97 From: HHEAGY@DELPHI.COM Time: 06:31am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: responsibilities of leadership From: hheagy@delphi.com Subject: Re: responsibilities of leadership On 1997-10-20 wreif@cityscape.net said: wr>It seemss to me like you abdicated your responsibility as leader, wr>trading the comfort of both driver and passengers for a little wr>personal popularity, and the chance to let people experience that wr>good feeling, (which proved to be short-lived in this instance) I disagree. I was not looking for popularity; I just wanted the people to make the decision since it effected everyone on the charter. You're right, I could have told the driver to stop at a super market in Jackson, but then they would have been angry about that and would not have experienced the situation I told them about. And you're also right about it not increasing my popularity because I still had the minority that did vote to stop as well as the disgruntled people who didn't like anything no matter what. But by letting them have their way the majority of participants had no one to blame but themselves for what happened. The driver we had knew the route, but they wouldn't have listened to her any more than they would me. And we got into a time frame problem which the driver did inform them of. Since the trip from Jackson to Austin was too long by law for one driver to drive the whole route, a driver was waiting in Houston to take the bus charter the rest of the way. If we had gotten into Houston past a certain time, the waiting driver would have used up all his waiting time and the remaining people would have had to spend the night in Houston before going back to Austin. But they still refused to listen. We met the time frame, but barely. We actually did not find out about this time frame problem till well after we left Jackson. The driver informed us of this after several vain stops in search of supplies. But they didn't listen to her any more than they did me. Now if I had known about this possibility when we left Jackson I might have done things differently, but by letting them have their way I figured that maybe next time we had a long charter they might listen to those of us who were knowledgeable and acting in their best interest. As far as intrusting certain decisions to the national leadership, that's what we elect them for. The convention can't vote on every issue that comes up during the year and that's what our leaders are there for. However, our constitution also says, in effect, that the convention is supreme authority; it doesn't say, "except when it doesn't suit the convenience of the national leadership." We are also supposed to be an interactive consumer organization. Also, unlike a lot of groups, we pay our way to the conventions out of our own pockets. We deserve more than to go and just say "I," to everything on the convention floor. Harvey Net-Tamer V 1.09 - Registered --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EEV00004Date: 10/21/97 From: MARINA A. EASTHAM Time: 10:42am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: FW: How to be a responsible citizen. From: Marina.Eastham@mail.trincoll.edu (Marina A. Eastham) Subject: FW: How to be a responsible citizen. From: cannon@cse.org Subject: How to be a responsible citizen. >> >>There is now a toll-free number that rings the US Capitol: >> >>1-800-972-3524 >>or, >>1-800-97-AFLCIO. >> >>Guess who pays. :) >> >>Discharge your civic duty! Call your Congressman and Senators now! And tell >>your friends!! (Just don't tell them you heard it from me.) >> >>_______________________ >> >>Michael F. Cannon >>Health Care Policy Analyst >>Citizens for a Sound Economy Foundation >>1250 H Street NW, Suite 700 >>Washington, DC 20005-3908 >>Voice: (202)942-7639 >>Fax: (202)783-4687 >>Email: mfc@cse.org >>Web Site: http://www.cse.org >> > ******************************************************* I've discovered it's not what the world holds for you, it's what you bring to it. --Lucy Maud Montgomery ******************************************************* Marina Eastham (860) 297-3555 Trinity College, Box 700127 Marina.Eastham@mail.trincoll.edu Hartford, Connecticut 06106 --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: EEV00005Date: 10/23/97 From: JENNIE MILBURN Time: 02:43pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: How? From: Jennie milburn Subject: How? Can someone please tell me how to unsubscribe? Thank you. Jenjen and the Aspen express. puppya@primenet.com --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045)