--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECU00010Date: 08/24/97 From: DAVID ANDREWS Time: 06:12pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: David Andrews Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest Denise: you make some good points. There is only one thing I would like to add to your message. Everyone who is in a leadership position in the NFB, Board emmbers, etc., is there because she/he can bring something to the table. That something is generally a constituency, that is people, votes, worketrc .... A person gains power in the NFB by first doing work and becoming a leader on the Chapter level. she/he can then move to the State and National arenas. However, to get there one must have something to bring to the table. That is the nature of politics. David Andrews On 1997-08-24 NFB-Talk@NFBnet.org said: DM>As a political insider I have found the discussion interesting. To DM>begin with we live in a REPRESENTATIVE Democracy not a pure DM>democracy. I have been involved in everything from PTA to DM>Statewide Political Conventions. If you think that the NFB is DM>rigid you have had very little experience with representative DM>organizations. It is of interest that there is a clause in the DM>model state affiliate constitution that says that Robert's Rules of DM>Order will not be used to subvert the will of the membership. I DM>have seen that take place in political conventions. It has always DM>been refreshing to see how open and fair our National Conventions DM>have been over the past 20 odd years. The rank and file members of DM>our organization know more about orderly and respectful meeting DM>etiquette than most of the elected officials that I know. I also DM>know that chaos does not allow for any kind of voice in an DM>organization. The National Federation of the Blind in my long DM>experience of 27 years of participation is an open, disciplined and DM>orderly organization. This results in the effectiveness and DM>influence which we are experiencing at this time. I can remember DM>many instances of nominations being taken from the floor. I can DM>also recall, including this past year in New Orleans, resolutions DM>resulting in lively and thought provoking discussion. I especially DM>recall the resolution concerning the setting up of a center in DM>Baltimore that eventually was defeated. I remember this discussion DM>very clearly because Gary and I were on opposite ends of view. I DM>must say that I have no patience for criticism for citicisms sake. DM>Constructive criticism proposes a problem and then proposes DM>possible solutions. Our world is no longer very simple and issues DM>have many sides. Until all sides can be observed and dealt with DM>solutions are difficult to reach. I apologize for the length of DM>this post. Thank you for your time. Denise Mackenstadt David Andrews (dandrews@visi.com) or BBS: (telnet to nfbnet.org) or call (612) 696-1975 Net-Tamer V 1.09 - Registered --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECU00011Date: 08/24/97 From: DAVID ANDREWS Time: 06:12pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Human Services Lists. From: David Andrews Subject: Re: Human Services Lists. You are correct in that we are working on some new lists. I have been very busy, and we have had a little trouble getting the list moderators connected up, and running. I hope to have this stuff ironed out in the next couple weeks. An announcement will appear here in NFB Talk, and in blind Talk too. David Andrews On 1997-08-24 NFB-Talk@NFBnet.org said: JD>I remember a posting on this list about coming Human Services Lists JD>in the organization. If there are any such laws comparable to JD>bllaw or orhter divisions, please email me privately or post on the JD>list for others who also might have such interests. I have a M.A. JD>in Counseling JD>Services and am AER certified in rehabilitation teaching. JD>Many Thanks in Advance, JD>Julie Dawson JD>Also completely off topic, does anyone know what a sx.se directory JD>is? It seems to have some wp beginnings to files and cio extensions. JD>"Out of many''''one people." JD>We give of ourselves to share with each other. JD>we receive from each other to empower ourselves. JD>Blessed be the Almighty who blesses His people. JD>Julie, AKA Magnolia in New York. David Andrews (dandrews@visi.com) or BBS: (telnet to nfbnet.org) or call (612) 696-1975 Net-Tamer V 1.09 - Registered --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECV00000Date: 08/24/97 From: MUELLER, NORBERT Time: 07:55pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: What do you think? From: nmueller@stepnet.de (Mueller, Norbert) Subject: Re: What do you think? MIME version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit boundary="--tcpsmtp080250199714046019" --tcpsmtp080250199714046019 On 1997-08-23 NFB-Talk@NFBnet.org said: >I kinda liked the joke. Me too. The fun was not on the account of the blind person, but of the ignorance of the sales person. Norbert Mueller, nmueller@stepnet.de or n.mueller@hit.handshake.de Work: dbbw@stepnet.de Net-Tamer V 1.09 - Registered --tcpsmtp080250199714046019 --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECW00000Date: 08/26/97 From: JIM GASHEL Time: 01:06am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: Jim Gashel Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest Harvey: where on earth did you get the idea that the nfb is really so much different from any other large political movement. we are not a debating society. that has been said many times over. under your construction, all voices in the movement would appear to be of equivillent rank. we would apparently have to give as much weight and time to listen to the ideas of a brand new person as we would to a seasoned and known leader. afterall, the new guy might really be telling us something worthwhile. therefore, under your construction, we owe him as much of a hearing as we do someone who has lead the movement for 25 years. whether it should work this way or not, it doesn't. denise mackenstadt and others have already pointed out to you that you don't acquire respect and strength in any political movement merely by showing up and having an idea. you have to earn your stripes as a political leader first. that often means supporting those who are in the power position that you would ultimately like to have. take yourself for example. you are one of those who shows up but mostly to complain about what the current leaders have or have not done. you do this, even though you can surely observe that the leaders you are complaining about have widespread support. the result is that few people take you or your ideas seriously. if you took another tack you would probably be a great deal more effective. take someone who is a recognized leader in our movement, for example. Say jim omvig. if he shows up and advocates for the same position that you might have expressed, more people will listen seriously than the few who will listen to you. this is because jim omvig normally is in the mainstream of the leadership. he is respected as a leader in the movement in part because he does not have a record of just showing up to complain. far different from you, people listen to him and take him seriously. in your case, you have so established in people's minds that you are a complainer, that a valuable contribution which you might have is overshaddowed by the excess baggage. my impression of you is that you want the rest of us to see you as a chronic complainer, but i can't imagine why. if you do, it is also hard for me to understand why you are put out with our leaders when they do not listen to you. we are people, harvey. we tend to listen to those who have followings and not to those who we observe to be ineffective complainers. whether you like it this way or not, the nfb cannot but help operating this way. thanks, J. G. On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 hheagy@delphi.com wrote: > > > As I pointed out in another post, we are supposed to be an > interactive consumer organization; led by the national but not > dominated or controlled by it. There is a difference. > > I also agree that Roberts Rules of Procedure should not be used > to circumvent the will of the convention, but neither should > intimidation tactics. Shouldn't we be allowed to state our > disagreement with the national leadership or with individuals > thereof without fear of reprisal or intimidation as long as we do > not engage in public personal attacks? Why should we have to > fear writing a disagreeing letter because it later may be used in > a leadership seminar, or in a Monitor, or banquet address or > presidential release? And take my word, no matter what is said > about sensitive information being used in seminars, it always > gets back to the people involved. > > As far as the resolution about the National Center, I think that > is a classic example of when a resolution should be sent to the > floor without prejudice so that a true decision of the convention > can be arrived at. I personally will not support a national > center as long as there are civil rights cases left untouched due > to lack of funds. > > > > Harvey > > Net-Tamer V 1.10 Beta - Registered > > --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECW00001Date: 08/26/97 From: HARVEY HEAGY Time: 01:59pm \/To: JIM GASHEL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest I am sorry you view me as a chronic complainer, but I intend to continue to speak out when I see something that is wrong no matter what the national leadership thinks. The truth is that the national views anyone as a chronic complainer who dares voice any kind of disagreement with its policies no matter how miner. I once did a lot of work for the national only to have it blow up in my face. In 1991, the national and the La. leadership didn't mind using this chronic complainer's broadcast contacts to gain valuable air time they otherwise would not have had. Everything was great then. But when I make my views known that's a different thing. Denise Mackenstadt is just a sheep, a national wind-up toy, a robot, a kiss ass! She and others like her are the ones who don't have a life because if they didn't have others in the national leadership to do their thinking for them they would not have a life. A lot of people are spending a lot of money to attend these conventions to have input. I never said that everyone can be heard on every issue; that was your distortion of what I said. But we should have a reasonable chance to be heard and to impact the decisions of the N.F.B. which we are not. And while I love being a part of the N.F.B., if it comes to a choice between standing up for what is right and being a member of the N.F.B., I will stand for what is right. I'm sorry for the tone of this message, but maybe this will teach others how we feel when we are treated like dirt with sarcastic messages just because we voice a concern. Harvey --- msged 2.07 * Origin: The Metairie Point -- New Orleans, LA (1:396/1.13) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECW00002Date: 08/26/97 From: JULIE DAWSON Time: 08:41pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Adaptive Equipment Fair, Distribute wide20:41:4208/26/97 From: Julie Dawson Subject: Adaptive Equipment Fair, Distribute widely (fwd) I thought this might be of interest to some listers. Julie Dawson z "Out of many''''one people." We give of ourselves to share with each other. we receive from each other to empower ourselves. Blessed be the Almighty who blesses His people. Julie, AKA Magnolia in New York. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:15:25 -0400 From: Ann K Parsons Reply-To: List blindad/Advertisements for blindness-related products and services To: BLINDAD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU Subject: Adaptive Equipment Fair, Distribute widely Hi all, Please distribute the following as widely as possible. It applies especially to those of us in the Northeast US, but could be of use to many. Please distribute as widely as possible. Please excuse multiple postings. Thank you, Ann P. Connections '97 Flyer info: WHO: Free and open to the public WHAT: Connections '97: A Technology and Services Fair for People With Visual Impairments WHEN: Tuesday, September 16, 1997, 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. WHERE: WXXI Public Broadcasting Center, 280 State Street, Rochester DETAILS: Adaptive computer equipment, daily living devices and community services will be exhibited. Vision screenings will be available through ABVI-Goodwill. Exhibitors include: ABVI-Goodwill Industries AICOM Corp. American Council of the Blind Ann Morris Enterprises Arkenstone, Inc. C-Tech Enabling Technologies Co. GW Micro Inc. Henter-Joyce Kraft Foods NYS Talking Book and Braille Library Rochester Eye & Human Parts Bank Rochester Gas & Electric TeleSensory Voice of the Diabetic Voila Technologies Xerox Special Products Division Additional information: Connections '97 is co-sponsored by WXXI Reachout Radio and ABVI-Goodwill Industries. WXXI is handicapped accessible and on the RTS Bus Route CONNECTIONS '97: A Technology and Services Fair For People with Visual Impairments A joint project of WXXI Reachout Radio And ABVI-Goodwill Industries of Greater Rochester On Tuesday, September 16, 1997, WXXI Reachout Radio and ABVI-Goodwill will host the second annual CONNECTIONS fair, bringing together print-handicapped individuals with providers of products or services specifically suited to their needs. Adaptive comput er hardware and software will be the primary focus, with additional displays of low vision devices, daily living products and services available in the community for people with visual impairments. Have you ever wished the print on your thermostat was larger, or the numbers and letters on your telephone were easier to read? Do you have trouble reading the small numerals on your watch? Or do you wish that the directions for how to prepare that batc h of brownies were in larger print? Connections '97 will show you how to access each of those things mentioned above, and so much more! Whether your vision is simply making life more difficult than it used to be, or whether you have no vision at all, Connections '97 has something for you. Exhibitors from all across the country will be displaying products and information for people with visual impairments. Whether its a set of large print playing cards, a talking computer, or a personal reading machine, you can see it, touch it, and exper ience it at Connections '97. And if you're unsure about your vision, the Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired-Goodwill Inc. will be on site providing vision screenings. Connections '97 will take place at WXXI, 280 State Street, on Tuesday, September 16th from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. This event is free and open to anyone who has a visual impairment or knows someone who would benefit from any of these services. Connections '97: A Technology and Services Fair for People with Visual Impairments...because everyone needs to know...there is hope when vision fails. For more information, contact WXXI Reachout Radio at (716) 258-0333. Ann K. Parsons akp@frontiernet.net Professional Tutor, high school and adults English/Social Studies Bard and lover of words Head Gardener, GrassRoots MOO "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." J.R.R. Tolkien --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECW00003Date: 08/27/97 From: BARBARA FREEMAN Time: 02:11am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: Barbara Freeman Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest Harvy: Look here Harvy unless you can stop calling people really nasty names then I think you need to find another group to inflict your bile upon. I for one am sick of all this. Act like a civilized person or go to the alt. groups where this kind of thing is expected. Barbara Freeman Member of NFB and proud of it Friend of Deniese Mackenstadt and proud of that too. --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECW00004Date: 08/27/97 From: JIM GASHEL Time: 12:12am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: Jim Gashel Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest Hello again Harvey: in the message you have posted below, you have now demonstrated to all of us why it is that you have trouble getting your ideas accepted in the nfb. who among us has not had things we have tried to "blow up in our face" as you put it. that's part of life and part of being in any organization. one problem you have is that you take everything so personally that your defensive reaction overshaddows any effective response you might make. in responding to you on this subject, i have been trying to help you understand why your views are often not accepted to your liking. if you really care about changing this fact, you are going to have to respond more positively. writing a defensive and name-calling response is simply more of the same kind of behavior that leads to the impression that you are a chronic complainer. if you want to make a positive contribution to our movement, i would suggest that you back off some and evaluate your approach in dealing with the rest of us. complaining about us is not getting you the response you want from us, so there is probably a better and smarter way. if i were you, i would start by finding some things that you can do that would be a positive assist, rather than a source of dissention. perhaps it would be working on a particular legislative issue or possibly volunteering to take on an assignment in the merchants division. after you have spent a while doing things that people notice as a positive contribution to our progress, you will probably also find that you get a better response when you suggest new ways of doing things. of course, you also have a perfect right to continue with your present course of conduct, but your approach is definitely compromising your effectiveness. you have the power and ability to change this if you wish. to sum it up, anyone's capacity to get anything done in almost any kind of organization that i know of depends in very large part on the image of the person in the eyes of those he seeks to convince. anyone who acquires the image of a chronic complainer, will have a problem until that image is changed. the change is up to you, but postings like the one below won't help. On 26 Aug 1997, Harvey Heagy wrote: > > > I am sorry you view me as a chronic complainer, but I intend to continue to speak out when I see something that is wrong no matter what the national leadership thinks. The truth is that the national views anyone as a chronic complainer who dares voice any kind of disagreement with its policies no matter how miner. > > I once did a lot of work for the national only to have it blow up in my face. In 1991, the national and the La. leadership didn't mind using this chronic complainer's broadcast contacts to gain valuable air time they otherwise would not have had. Everything was great then. But when I make my views known that's a different thing. > > Denise Mackenstadt is just a sheep, a national wind-up toy, a robot, a kiss ass! She and others like her are the ones who don't have a life because if they didn't have others in the national leadership to do their thinking for them they would not have a life. > > A lot of people are spending a lot of money to attend these conventions to have input. I never said that everyone can be heard on every issue; that was your distortion of what I said. But we should have a reasonable chance to be heard and to impact the decisions of the N.F.B. which we are not. > > > And while I love being a part of the N.F.B., if it comes to a choice between standing up for what is right and being a member of the N.F.B., I will stand for what is right. I'm sorry for the tone of this message, but maybe this will teach others how we feel when we are treated like dirt with sarcastic messages just because we voice a concern. > > Harvey > > --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECX00000Date: 08/27/97 From: HARVEY HEAGY Time: 06:26pm \/To: JIM GASHEL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest In a message Jim Gashel typed to All JG> who among us has not had things we have tried to "blow up in our face" s JG> you put it. that's part of life and part of being in any organization. It's also the problem the national leadership has. They want it both ways. they want the power to decide when they will and will not help someone and then if they decide not to, then the effected person is supposed to come up smiling pretend it didn't happen and just continue to spend their own money to go to Washington Seminar, National Conventions Etc. and not react to it. the national seems to forget that it's a two edged sword, and that people have feelings, and that when they hurt people's feelings once too often, they get disgusted and say, "the hell with it." They also can dish out the name calling, the psychological abuse and the nastyness and its all right, but when the shoe is on the other foot and they get it back "ouch!" then they want to cry, "that's not fair. That's abuse you're being a chronick complainer." Of course there are times when we have to pick our battles. I recently submitted documentation on an E.E.O.C. complaint I filed and lost. I felt that there was not an optimistic chance of winning it in court but I wanted the national to have it on file so that we could collective place our common voice to let congress know at the proper time that E.E.O.C. was not taking A.D.A. as seriously as it was the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And I don't want to be unfair here. As you well know, I thanked you in an e-mail, a written letter, and personally for your help in winning a very difficult Social Security case for me. So I am not at all unappreciative of your help or support. However, I feel that there were a couple of winnable cases which the national left me hanging on neither of which would have involved a great deal of money or time. In an earlier post, I laid out some recent projects that I had taken on 2 of which involved a great deal of work. I won't go into them again; just check the post. I could also say that if the national leadership continues on its present course, if another civil war comes that would make 1957 to 1961 look like child's play, a few of us will have a great big, "I told you so," ready to drop on their heads. Not that we'd be happy about it. I think such a thing would be disasterous, but as has been said, "History repeats itself, and those who don't learn from it are doombed to relive it." An example is when an abused spouse wants out of an abusive relationship, the tighter the grip the other spouse tries to put on them the more likely the abused party is to get out.Harvey --- msged 2.07 * Origin: The Metairie Point -- New Orleans, LA (1:396/1.13) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECX00001Date: 08/27/97 From: HHEAGY@DELPHI.COM Time: 07:00am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: hheagy@delphi.com Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest On 1997-08-27 NFB-Talk@NFBnet.org said: NF>Harvy: Look here Harvy unless you can stop calling people really NF>nasty names then I think you need to find another group to inflict NF>your bile upon. I for one am sick of all this. Excuse me, but I was called a chronic complainer and I don't have to take that kind of garbage from anyone! As Mr. Gashel well knows, I was at every session of the Spring Vendor's Conference in Las Vegas. I also wrote an article about it for the Merchant Messenger which I also submitted to the Monitor. I tried very hard to be as accurate as possible with everything including spelling and addresses which involved a lot of work. I also worked the Vendor's Division table at the convention. Your husband also knows that I prepared a comprehensive repeater directory for all the hams attending the convention who wanted it. This involved about 6 months of work to get it as accurate as possible, sending prototypes to several people to get their opinions on it and over a 1,000 sheet box of fan fold computer braille paper for which I charged the Ham Radio Group nothing. I have done a lot of work for this organization; So don't you dare call me down when you don't know your facts! I could give you lots of examples of behavior by our own leaders that would make that of the Nacsters look ethical, but if the national wishes to bury its head in the sand and not deal with things that need to be dealt with by calling those of us who are trying to point out things to them that we are chronic complainers or saying that if Jim Omvig said it we might deal with it and other such cop-outs I guess that's its business, but we will one day pay a heavy price for this kind of nonsense. Every time we try to point out even the slightest disagreement with the national leadership on anything we are greeted with sarcasm, name calling and psychological abuse at their hands. Why can't it gracefully accept criticism like they expect u s to do? It seems that they can dish it out, but they can't take it. Apparently, in your mind, it's all right when the national leadership does it. Mr. Gashel well knows the problems with the vending program here and our state leadership's unwillingness to pursue a La. Randolph- shepherd Act or a separate agency for the blind. I spoke with Charles Allen about taking on the issue of discrimination against totally blind verses partially sighted operators in the Randolph-shepherd Program which he agreed we had to take on. I had a resolution to that effect at the above referred to conference which was remanded to the Vendor's division board. I would have presented more but there wasn't time. I didn't kick and scream and complain about that; I accepted the decision of those present. That is more work I did for this organization. I am sorry as I can be for the tone of that last post, but I didn't start it. Disagreeing with me is one th ing, what is being done is quite another. --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045)