--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECS00005Date: 08/20/97 From: MIKE FREEMAN Time: 01:45pm \/To: KEVIN LAROSE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest On 15 Aug 97 12:18, Kevin Larose wrote: KL> Harvey does raise a good point here. KL> You allude to the "democratic nature" KL> of the Federation, but I totally fail KL> to see that. There is absolutely no KL> way a powerful state President, KL> especially one in a state where one of the KL> NFB training centers is located, could KL> be even challenged, much less KL> defeated, in an election. She has the KL> job for as long as she wants it, no KL> matter what happens. Hi, Kevin. First, I note you have an "eskimo" address. Are you in the Seattle area? If so, have you attended a NFB of Greater Seattle chapter meeting? Second, an affiliate president holds office only so long as s/he wants the office and the electorate will have him/her. I know; I *am* an affiliate president. I'm gone tomorrow if the electorate doesn't want me. My only real weapon is the power to persuade. (President Truman noted this of the Presidency of the United States also.) Use of other strategems to maintain so-called control generally backfires. In turn, my power to persuade rests upon my ability to form my arguments logically and persuasively and upon the respect that the electorate holds (or does not hold) for me. If I'm not persuasive or if I've lost the respect of the affiliate membership, I'm history! Mike Freeman ___ PCRR QWK 1.60 --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECS00006Date: 08/20/97 From: MIKE FREEMAN Time: 01:58pm \/To: WQ6R (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest On 15 Aug 97 19:44, Wq6R wrote: Wq> I have attended two national NFB Wq> conventions, and several NFB of Wq> California conventions, and have never Wq> seen anything that resembles an Wq> open election, unless you consider Wq> elections in the old Soviet Union to be A most neutral and intellectually even-handed analogy, don't you think? NOT Wq> open. It would be physically Wq> impossible to nominate anyone from the floor, C'mon, Andy. I must respectfully submit that you're spouting drivel here. To be sure, it's tough at national conventions given the size of the gathering, to nominate from the floor. But it has happened. Everyone knows when elections are being held; it is easy to find a microphone and/or someone with lung power. Now let's consider state conventions. How is it impossible to nominate from the floor? I've been at state conventions of the NFB of Oregon, the NFB of Idaho, the NFB of Washington and the NFB of New Mexico. Nominations are called upon three times from the floor. That fact is regularly taken advantage of in our state. Candidates other than those recommended by the Nominating Committee are regularly nominated. Yes, most often, the choices of the nominating committee prevail in the general election. That's only because the electorate generally respects the leadership and those serving on the nominating committee. The results are never certain, however. I'm sure veterans of the movement could tell you many war stories. Wq> and the incumbants are already lined Wq> up at the podium before the election Wq> even starts. Huh? In my experience, everyone is in the audience except the presiding officer. Incidentally, generally-speaking, those giving the shortest acceptance speeches get cheered the most in the Washington state affiliate. Mike Freeman; Internet: mikef@pacifier.com; Amateur Radio Callsign: K7UIJ President, National Federation of the Blind of Washington /* PGP2.6.2 Public Key available via my ".plan" file */ ... I doubt, therefore I might be. ___ PCRR QWK 1.60 --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECS00007Date: 08/20/97 From: MIKE FREEMAN Time: 02:25pm \/To: HHEAGY@DELPHI.COM (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest On 19 Aug 97 23:03, Hheagy@Delphi.Com wrote: Hh> Granted, it is possible to nominate Hh> someone from the floor. I Hh> have seen that done many times since I Hh> began attending national Hh> conventions in 1975, however, have you ever seen a floor Hh> nomination succeed? I haven't. The fallacy here is to blame this on "the organization" or the leadership or some artifact of electoral or constitutional procedure -- anything but the real cause: those nominated from the floor did not have the confidence (for whatever reason) of the electorate! Voters are people, after all, and tend to vote for those they know unless said people have been tainted with some sort of opprobrium. True, NFB doesn't have term limits; we believe in allowing members to vote for whom they will! Hh> Also, again it may be technically true that incumbents are Hh> generally but not always elected, Hh> their replacements must have the Hh> endorsement of the nominating Hh> committee before their nominations Hh> have any chance of succeeding. Generally, this is true. But not always. As I've said elsewhere, one tends to vote for those one knows and has confidence in. Generally, nominations from the floor are relatively spontaneous. Thus, nominees thus submitted generally don't have time to network ahead-of-time and advocate their virtues. In other words, politicking generally has not taken place. But, believe me, when an affiliate presidency changes hands without the consent of those currently in power, plenty of politicking goes on beforehand and *then* nominations from the floor often succeed. Hh> And unless an incumbent voluntarily Hh> gives up their position they Hh> can have it for as long as they want Hh> it except in a few rare Hh> cases. So NFB gets criticized because it's like most elective organizations. Hh> Again, while this may be true in Hh> political elections at all Hh> levels, there is a growing mistrust of Hh> incumbents that they Hh> should not be making a career of what Hh> is supposed to be a public Hh> service and their numbers of terms Hh> have been limited in some Hh> states with proposals to do so at the Hh> national level as well. Have you ever considered what advocates of term limits are *really* saying? It boils down to this: I am unable to resist the wiles of those currently holding office who are seeking re-election. I am insufficiently responsible to make my own choices. Please enact statutes preventing me from voting freely for any candidate I wish! resist the wiles of those holding elective office. Mike Freeman ___ PCRR QWK 1.60 --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECS00008Date: 08/20/97 From: MIKE FREEMAN Time: 02:03pm \/To: BRIAN LINGARD (Read 0 times) Subj: elections On 16 Aug 97 10:19, Brian Lingard wrote: BL> In a good number of organizations, the BL> bulk of the candidate BL> selection is done quite a bit ahead of BL> time and the slate of BL> candidates presented for election has BL> pretty much the exact BL> number of candidates to be elected, so BL> the election process is a BL> formality. BL> As examples of pre-selection I'd consider: BL> -U.S. elections for Congress and the BL> res. Like Americans don't Ever hear of Congresswoman Linda Smith of Washington state's Third Congressional District? She won the state primary for her first term in Congress by a write-in victory! Mike Freeman ___ PCRR QWK 1.60 --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECS00009Date: 08/20/97 From: MIKE FREEMAN Time: 02:06pm \/To: JENNIE MILBURN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: This is weird. Jenny: The reason you get what appear to be duplicate messages is that some folks send the same message to both lists. There ain't much can be done about it except to jawbone them into picking which list is appropriate for each message and/or just slogging thru the detritis! Mike Freeman ___ PCRR QWK 1.60 --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECS00010Date: 08/20/97 From: MIKE FREEMAN Time: 02:27pm \/To: HHEAGY@DELPHI.COM (Read 0 times) Subj: What do you think? I kinda liked the joke. Mike Freeman ___ PCRR QWK 1.60 --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECT00000Date: 08/23/97 From: BRIAN LINGARD Time: 11:40am \/To: MIKE FREEMAN (Read 0 times) Subj: elections 23 August 1997 Ottawa Canada Good for the Representative that got a write-in ballot. In Canada, we do not have write-in candidates. Oh ever wonder about the mysterious people who are in the Electoral College and actually elect the U.S. president? Ever wonder who they are, how they got into the college and if they are on a full scholarship? I did and spoke with a little office that deals with the Electoral College. The very nice man I spoke with explained how the college votes (by mail incidentally) and other interesting things. But he is not exactly sure how the 400 odd people get in the college or the requirements to be considered to get in. He was not exactly certain, but was of the oinion the two established political parties propose electoral college candidates to someone who then approves or rejects them. Kind of intereseting. Reminds me of an episode of Laugh-In years ago when they were discusshing how an African tribe chose its next leader. After the guy explained about primaries and conventions and such even he thought the afrcan tribe's method was more useful than the US. system. Was a laugh at the time and the more I learn of the U.S. political system, the funnier it gets. Ask if you too can have a full scholarship to the Electoral College, or see if you can get a tenured faculty appointment in it. ... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear! --- Blue Wave v2.12 [NR] * Origin: NFB NET St. Paul, MN (612) 696-1975 (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECT00001Date: 08/23/97 From: JIM GASHEL Time: 07:55am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: Jim Gashel Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest hello harvey: why is it that you think that the ability to cary out a political strategy and win votes is somehow in conflict with democracy. Take our nation. by tradition, we have a two party system. ask anyone who has ever tried to be elected but is republican or democrat how far they got. almost without exception they were not elected. Try being a republican and winning elective office in baltimore city. democracy does not mean that everything is left strictly to chance. planning, organizing, and getting yourself into the inner workings of the politically inside group is the essence of democracy. apparently you don't like it that way because you can't seem to do that. however, just because you lack the political savy to become a political insider does not mean that we don't have a democracy in the contry as a whole or in the nfb. --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECU00000Date: 08/24/97 From: ANDY BARACCO Time: 05:53pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: Andy Baracco Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest Oh Christ with a crutch! Give me a break! We're not stupid! On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 MACK73DEN@aol.com wrote: > > > As a political insider I have found the discussion interesting. To begin > with we live in a REPRESENTATIVE Democracy not a pure democracy. I have been > involved in everything from PTA to Statewide Political Conventions. If you > think that the NFB is rigid you have had very little experience with > representative organizations. It is of interest that there is a clause in > the model state affiliate constitution that says that Robert's Rules of Order > will not be used to subvert the will of the membership. I have seen that > take place in political conventions. It has always been refreshing to see > how open and fair our National Conventions have been over the past 20 odd > years. The rank and file members of our organization know more about orderly > and respectful meeting etiquette than most of the elected officials that I > know. I also know that chaos does not allow for any kind of voice in an > organization. > The National Federation of the Blind in my long experience of 27 years of > participation is an open, disciplined and orderly organization. This results > in the effectiveness and influence which we are experiencing at this time. I > can remember many instances of nominations being taken from the floor. I can > also recall, including this past year in New Orleans, resolutions resulting > in lively and thought provoking discussion. I especially recall the > resolution concerning the setting up of a center in Baltimore that eventually > was defeated. I remember this discussion very clearly because Gary and I > were on opposite ends of view. I must say that I have no patience for > criticism for citicisms sake. Constructive criticism proposes a problem nd > then proposes possible solutions. Our world is no longer very simple and > issues have many sides. Until all sides can be observed and dealt with > solutions are difficult to reach. > I apologize for the length of this post. Thank you for your time. > Denise Mackenstadt > > --- * Origin: NFBnet <--> Internet Email Gateway (1:282/1045) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 233 NFB BLIND NEWS Ref: ECU00001Date: 08/24/97 From: JENNIE MILBURN Time: 08:21pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Conflict of Interest From: Jennie milburn Subject: Re: Conflict of Interest I understand what you mean about people being unhappy with services. If the clients don't speak about their training, then things will never change. I'm not saying this is too much of an issue with the NFB centers, but the state angencies big time. There is sooooo much that needs done here in Idaho, I could scream. I think I will. Some one needs to spread the word. How do you all feel about that? Jennie and the Aspen express! !