--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2400008 Date: 01/30/97 From: SLOW Time: 07:19pm \/To: TIM DILL (Read 1 times) Subj: What's Wrong with AA? if you don't like the way A.A. is run whey don't you start your own group and you can be the only one to make the rules and you can get sober on your own as for me i got sober throw A.A. and it means life to me not death as for the nameless god that is his name i hope you have a long sober life --- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.3 * Origin: Platinum Xpress For Wildcat (1:159/240) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500000 Date: 02/03/97 From: BOB PERLITZ Time: 04:58pm \/To: TIM DILL (Read 1 times) Subj: checking the connect TD> Mr Billy O. Howdy back sir and we be sober here and teasing the TD> moribound 20+ book thumpers... "Teasing" is ok but not name-calling . Have a happy 24. Bob --- * OLXWin 1.00 * This tagline is umop apisdn --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Fresh Start BBS * Edison NJ * (908) 248-1678 * (1:107/310.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500001 Date: 02/03/97 From: BOB PERLITZ Time: 04:24pm \/To: BILLY O (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: What's Wrong with AA? BO> BP> My experience has been that no one has ever been tossed out of BO> BP> AA in the 20 years I have attended. The only requirement for BO> BP> membership is a desire to stop drinking. If someone violates BO> BP> the traditions, they are spoken to about it, but there is no BO> BP> procedure in place to "toss them out" (or sue them for that BO> BP> matter). BO> Isn't there something in the 12&12 about how we don't need a BO> police force because we have a disease that will take us out if we BO> get too far off the beam? Yes I do remember that now. Most of those you "refuse to give themselves to this simple program", won't be around very long anyway. Thanks for sharing and have a happy 24. Bob --- * OLXWin 1.00 * Proofread carefully to see if you any words out. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Fresh Start BBS * Edison NJ * (908) 248-1678 * (1:107/310.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500002 Date: 02/03/97 From: BOB PERLITZ Time: 04:29pm \/To: TIM DILL (Read 1 times) Subj: What's Wrong with AA? TD> I support AA but not GSO nor the General Service Committee that TD> wasted 7.2 million dollars of the 7th tradition without TD> consulting the members... TD> I support the local groups, I speak at meetings, I make Coffee TD> at my Monday night step meeting... TD> But I find that the Literature must change else the Great Program TD> which got me sober will die... TD> I never thought that once this would be anyone's reaction to this... TD> I am sober/clean by the Goddess' power over 7 years now but TD> it's time I seriously looked at the wording and the way TD> the Books are written. Congratulations on 7 years of sobriety. Surely you are a miracle of AA. I must say that I have never met (in person) anyone in AA sober over 7 years that did not feel that the program was a miracle for them. I have never met one who has felt that the program that accomplished that miracle needs a major overhaul. That is something unique I have found in this forum. TD> There are 22 NEGATIVE references to the ego in the AA 12&12's 4th step TD> alone.. I have not even begun to count the NEGATIVE ideas throughout TD> the whole book. With this in mind, I dare say that with this NEGATIVE TD> reference to us as human beings and one's negative attitude when one TD> "Hits bottom" and see's the way (and I dare say the only way because TD> AA won't publish any other) charts the course to recovery... TD> one could think that they are in CATHOLIC school with all the TD> attending sin and worthlessness and guilt associated with just TD> being human and then see this is JUST a spiritual program? I will repeat again, this program has saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of addicts who 70 years ago would have no alternative to turn to. I can't agree it is a failure. TD> Therefore just for the newcomer we need to REVISE the 1939 Texts TD> and the 1947 Texts to reflect the CURRENT membership... TD> There have been 5 revised copies of the NA Blue books out since I TD> got clean. The NA 12 & 12 has been written in 1990 and published in TD> 1993 reflecting the learning curve of dealing with the "dregs of TD> humanity" it reflects a gentler way of dealing with the ones hurt TD> by AA's out moded way of TALKING to the sufferer.... It seems that your obsession is with changing the Big Book (heaven forbid!) and the 12&12. I'm curious to know, how do you feel about the 12 steps themselves? I'm not familiar with NA but don't they use the same basic 12 steps as AA? If they do, it seems to work for them as well. Have a happy 24. Bob --- * OLXWin 1.00 * MSI HQ! BBS - Home of Off-Line Xpress 805-873-2400 --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Fresh Start BBS * Edison NJ * (908) 248-1678 * (1:107/310.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500003 Date: 02/03/97 From: BOB PERLITZ Time: 05:00pm \/To: JOAN REA (Read 1 times) Subj: What's Wrong with AA? JR>Then, somebody JR>sees where some money can be made with this and a priestly class JR>develops....... Where is this money being made? I'd like to get in on it . --- * OLXWin 1.00 * hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Fresh Start BBS * Edison NJ * (908) 248-1678 * (1:107/310.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500004 Date: 02/02/97 From: MARTIN WAXMAN Time: 04:49pm \/To: BILL OXFORD (Read 1 times) Subj: checking the connect Bill Oxford wrote to All on and announced .. BO> I'm gonna send this one upline and see if the connect is getting out. Well Bill, It seems your message made it all the way (haha) to Mesa. BO> I am majorly looking forward to being able to pipe some recovery BO> talk into this insane asylum I call the pedicab shop. Would you care to explain the name? BO> So, how 'bout it folks, anybody getting this? Got it and sending it back to you. --- msgedsq 2.0.4 * Origin: Marty's Place Mesa, AZ (1:114/136.4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500005 Date: 02/02/97 From: MARTIN WAXMAN Time: 05:12pm \/To: TIM DILL (Read 1 times) Subj: What's Wrong with AA? Tim Dill wrote to Bob Perlitz on and announced .. TD> On (30 Jan 97) Bob Perlitz was mumbling to Tim Dill... BP> WOW, is that an understatement!!!!! TD> No, Have you my experience?... TD> If not this is an alterative viewpoint. BP> I guess you REALLY believe the AA program is a failure. That does not BP> quite coincide with my experience but you are entitled to your BP> opinion. AA in my opinion has a lot of growing up to do. I started of a member of that fellowship but as a result of to many members dening the real problem (obsessive behavior) and telling me if I had to identify as an "and a" then I needed to share my e.s.h. somewhere else. That is when I started going to N.A. So A.A. was not a complete failure to me. I found what I needed by going there first. And yes I do believe that AA definately needs to take a good hard look at the symptom/ cause issues and the behavior issues that surround them. In all the other fellowships that I have attened meetings in they all seem to focus more on the "behavior issues" that lead up to using our particular "fix". TD> Yes, and my opinion marks the ones who have recovered and now are TD> really taking a long hard look at the _Wording_ that got them TD> into recovery. An inventory of the organization that may get TD> people sober.. but leaves them lacking in the way they do it. Agreed. TD> I support AA but not GSO nor the General Service Committee that TD> wasted 7.2 million dollars of the 7th tradition without TD> consulting the members... Glad to hear that you still go to meetings. TD> I support the local groups, I speak at meetings, I make Coffee TD> at my Monday night step meeting... TD> But I find that the Literature must change else the Great Program TD> which got me sober will die... Agreed Again! TD> I never thought that once this would be anyone's reaction to this... TD> I am sober/clean by the Goddess' power over 7 years now but TD> it's time I seriously looked at the wording and the way TD> the Books are written. Its been a long time comming. TD> In the NA twelve and twelve Character Defects are not mentioned until TD> the 6th step... and ego deflation hardly at all... It looks at the 4th TD> step as the most loving thing that you could do for yourself.... Good point. TD> There are 22 NEGATIVE references to the ego in the AA 12&12's 4th step TD> alone.. I have not even begun to count the NEGATIVE ideas throughout TD> the whole book. With this in mind, I dare say that with this NEGATIVE TD> reference to us as human beings and one's negative attitude when one TD> "Hits bottom" and see's the way (and I dare say the only way because TD> AA won't publish any other) charts the course to recovery... TD> one could think that they are in CATHOLIC school with all the TD> attending sin and worthlessness and guilt associated with just TD> being human and then see this is JUST a spiritual program? TD> I don't think so.... TD> Therefore just for the newcomer we need to REVISE the 1939 Texts TD> and the 1947 Texts to reflect the CURRENT membership... Its been a long time comming. I got clean in sept. 1989 and felt that way after attending my first N.A. meeting. I would very between both fellowships and would leave an AA meeting feeling like I just came away from a very primitive process for recovery. I did continue to go to meetings anyway. I saught groups that were a bit more open to current thought processes. But eventually I desided to just stick with N.A. meetings. TD> There have been 5 revised copies of the NA Blue books out since I TD> got clean. The NA 12 & 12 has been written in 1990 and published in TD> 1993 reflecting the learning curve of dealing with the "dregs of TD> humanity" it reflects a gentler way of dealing with the ones hurt TD> by AA's out moded way of TALKING to the sufferer.... TD> Tim.... TD> ... First listen to sermon, THEN eat missionary. Not in todays agenda. Today is a beautiful day to go to an NA meeting and listen to those who are "in recovery" not "around" it. TD> Trudging the road in Brooklyn N.Y. Wearing shorts and tank tops in January :-) --- msgedsq 2.0.4 * Origin: Marty's Place Mesa, AZ (1:114/136.4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500006 Date: 02/03/97 From: BILL OXFORD Time: 11:26pm \/To: BOB PERLITZ (Read 1 times) Subj: checking the connect BP> Well, you made it to Edison, NJ. And I look forward to your "piping BP> some recovery" this way. BTW, what is a "pedicab shop"? Okay, good. The connection is working. Pedicabs are like bicycle drawn rickshaws. Pedal-Cabs. Mine are nine feet long, four feet wide and about four feet tall. I've got eight of them. They are how I make my living. I have been into cycling since early grade school. It was how I got out of the house. AFter I got clean and sober, I paniced with all the money that built up, so I spent it all on a real nice bike. I've learned alot of life lessons from cycling. It has turned into a sortof yoga for me. One day I was walking in a city some ways away from where I was living, and saw my first pedicab. It was love and meaning at first sight. That was Oct of 93. I started working for the company that month, had moved into and started living in the shop by December. I rebuilt all the bikes, hired all new drivers, and made the company do half again as well each year since. This last September, I borrowed some money and bought it. Seven pedi-cabs, a bunch of spare bodies and frames and a warehouse full of odds and ends, bits and pieces. I taught myself how to weld, bought a welder and built my own bike to ride. So now I literally make a living from my art. In the last four months and some weeks, we have generated almost the same gross income that we did the first year I worked here. I have found my thing I want to be when I grow up. I am doing the thing of "do what you love and the money will follow". It ain't no way close to peaches and cream, and the life lessons have multiplied in number and intensity, but all in all I'm extremely fortunate to be who, where, and how I am. groove on man, more later. --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500007 Date: 02/03/97 From: BILL OXFORD Time: 11:26pm \/To: KRISTI HERVOL (Read 1 times) Subj: checking the connect KH> Hi Bill, KH> Got your message. What's a pedicab shop? It's my home of choice. It's where I work on my pedal cabs, bike taxi's, sorta like nine foot long tricycles with fiberglas bodies on the back. I believe them to be the most appropriate way for people and goods to move around in the inner city. KH> I'm new to the message boards and the computer but too looking KH> forward to sharing recoverly with new friends trudging the same path! KH> It's a great day to be sober! I've been doing this bbs recovery thing for alot of years now, off and on. It's a good thing. Look forward to more sharing.... --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: E2500008 Date: 02/02/97 From: OTIS Time: 09:12am \/To: BILL OXFORD (Read 1 times) Subj: checking the connect Hi Bill BO> So, how 'bout it folks, anybody getting this? Just to let you know your thoughts have reached here to the Great Pacific South West. Otis "Just For Today" --- Ezycom V1.20 * Origin: Jack Squat 604-531-7370 White Rock B.C. (1:153/9123)