--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5K00026 Date: 05/10/96 From: JUDITH LABONTE Time: 12:05pm \/To: PAT WINSTANLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: multi-program recovery PW>Hi Judith, PW>Monday May 06 1996 12:06, Judith Labonte wrote to Esther Lindenfeld: PW> JL> Well one thing I've found different in the Anon programs is PW> JL> the level of involvement for new-comers. Who ever heard of PW> JL> going to one meeting per week for a new-comer in AA, NA or PW>For some people daily AA meetings aren't an option because they don't PW>exist. Round here there are two meetings a week that are accessible (even PW>vaguely) to me... and both are at times when I would need a 'babysitter' PW>to be able to attend. PW> JL> we know we need 90 meetings in 90 days or whatever. I've PW>So this simply isn't possible. PW>Not all parts of the world are as well endowed with recovery 'services' as PW>others. PW>Yet people still recover where meetings are sparse or non-existant - some PW>with enormous amounts of time. Wonder how? ;-) PW>Pat PW>--- PW> * Origin: Pierless, Wigan, UK. [01942-749012 (voice)] (2:250/107.99) PW> I can relate to this - having been in rural southwest Virginia, where this was the case. (unless one had a car and could get to other towns) I also relate to this because physical disabilities sometimes make it nearly impossible for me to get out of the house to get to any meetings - even those in my own backyard, so to speak. However that is where I find this recovery echo and others like it fill in the gaps greatly and I have a feeling you'd agree, as I've seen you about here a bit. In a case such as yours, another option is always to start a new meeting too - maybe a daytime one, if that would make it easier for you. I have an arrangement with a friend where one day a week I babysit her two daughters, so she can go to an Al-Anon meeting right near my house - then after, she drops by and we talk for about a half-hour or so and then she takes me to a noon AA meeting. This has worked out really well for us. We attend the same Church and know each other well, so her kids are comfortable with me. When my sponsor was married to someone in the U N diplomatic corps and was sent to an African country where AA did not yet exist at that time, she started her own meeting - which had other folks dropping in at times, since there was also no Al-Anon, OA or any other A, for that matter. It became more of a generic 12 step recovery group - sort of like here. Now I don't know if that group managed to stay together when she left; however, she managed to stay sober until she left - although she has pointed out to me that she didn't feel like she got any real progress in while she was there, she just didn't drink, period. That was all, but it was enough FOR HER in that case scenario. What I guess I am saying here is we are all doing the best that we can, right? --- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00219) * Origin: Dreamer's Lot BBS * Shrewsbury * Ma * 508-798-4188(1:322/758) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5K00027 Date: 05/15/96 From: JUDITH LABONTE Time: 05:14pm \/To: RAIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: multi-program recovery RA>Don't forget the AA Loners-Internationalists Meeting, a special RA>meeting-in-print and correspondence service, both print and (lately) RA>electronic, for people who can't get to enough meetings due to RA>distance or illness or whatever. It has been a lifesaver for me. RA>If you're interested, just write to AA Loners-Internationalists, Box RA>459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, and ask them to put you RA>on the list; you'll get an excellent monthly newsletter crammed with 40 RA>or 50 members' sharings, an address directory of other LIM members, and RA>probably some really interesting letters from LIMers around the world RA>welcoming you to LIM--in the first month after my name and address RA>appeared in the newsletter, I heard from (among others) Northern RA>Ireland, central Alabama, southern India, a guy on a boat in the middle RA>of the ocean, and Greybull, Wyoming. Linda, thank you so much for sharing that information. I am also unable to get to meetings - esp. in the Winter - as I have disabilities that make mobility truly horrible in snow. I use these echoes a lot because of it and during some times of physical health problems such as severe illness and surgery; however, i am sure this would also be a resource for me - the AA loners/internationalists newsletter. Is there a cost for this? Another thing I have been trying to get done is a subscription to the AA Grapevine (P O Box 1980 Grand Central Station, New York NY 10163-1980) so I would get two things in the mail if I signed up for both - that would truly be encouraging. One can only read the Big book and step book so many times before it loses meaning. Sometimes having other literature to turn to is a big help. By the way, if anyone reading this is interested in the Grapevine, the rate in U.S. funds is $12. a year, $23. for two years. At least that's what it said in the March 1995 edition which someone gave me. I don't know if it's gone up since then. Again, thanks for letting me know the loners service is also available to the disabled. I thought it was only for folks who lived where there were no meetings, naval personnel, and merchant marines. That is what I had understood. If I could, I'd give you a gold star (GRIN). CONSIDER YOURSELF HUGGED! --- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00219) * Origin: Dreamer's Lot BBS * Shrewsbury * Ma * 508-798-4188(1:322/758) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5K00028 Date: 05/15/96 From: JUDITH LABONTE Time: 05:14pm \/To: JEFF HUNTER (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: multi-program recovery JH>I have been to neither an Alanon nor a NA meeeting, my experience has been JH>only with AA. I do not find exhilaration in large crowds, rather I find JH>isolation, coldness, a great deal of fear of strangers, the "New York JH>attitude" prevails in large crowds, in my opinion. JH>> There can also be the problem of a group being so small that it seems JH>> like it's always the same stories, same reactions, and same damn JH>meetings JH>> over again. NA has virtually vanished here because of this. The main JH>> members were a married couple and one of the couple's siblings who moved JH>> away to a nearby city, and without their stability holding the meeting JH>> together, it's just about fizzled out. JH>Sorry to hear that, can you, perhaps, serve as the stablizing element and JH>keep the thing going? I have been in both large urban meetings - Washington D C and Baltimore MD area as well as one in Greenwhich village in New York City NY. I've been to meetings in my own city, which is still an urban environment, but with less to offer WITH the urban decay. I also have been to SMALL meetings - Vinton Virginia for example as well as having been a guest at a really small meeting in Rural New Hampshire. I have to agree with you, I prefer the smaller meetings. I like your suggestion about being the stabilizing element. After a relapse, I realized - over 9 years ago - that I had better go to a certain meeting which I don't particularly like because that is the only meeting I could (and can) get to on my own. My ex had stopped going to meetings and had also relapsed - although he still doesn't admit it and shows up occasionally at AA, collects coins and fools NOBODY but himself as to his condition. (it's a running joke, I'm told, at his group - unfortunately) I am legally blind, so I can't drive and I have severe athritis. A day-time meeting where the bus takes me is the best I can do - and in a bad winter, I can't even do that many times. So what I have had to do is to go to that meeting anyway - at least for 7 years of this time, while I've been back in my own city and before I left in early sobriety. What I've tried to do is follow that old saying to "Light one candle, rather than curse the darkness". What I do is try to go to that meeting - an urban one also - and to be different. If nobody talks to me, I introduce myself to a newcomer, for example. I may offer to speak or offer to chair our Friday step meeting. I may just take the collection at the Friday meeting and bring it back to the person responsible for it. It has been working for me for that part of the past 9 years and 2 weeks or so that I've been sober. It's nice to have choices about which meetings a person does or does not go to, but I am proof positive that this is NOT necessary in order to stay clean and sober. And as long as I don't drink or drug, I can try to find out what works best to give me some serenity and sanity in being sober and clean. (usually the steps - as with many people, I find the steps work best for most) --- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00219) * Origin: Dreamer's Lot BBS * Shrewsbury * Ma * 508-798-4188(1:322/758) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5K00029 Date: 05/11/96 From: ANDREW DETTMAN Time: 10:21pm \/To: JUDITH LABONTE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: multi-program recovery ~ Hello Judith Labonte, keep coming back... Monday, 6 May 1996 12:06:00, Judith Labonte wrote to Esther Lindenfeld Subject: Re: multi-program recovery JL> ........ I think that........................................... JL> is a bit of a gift we alcoholics and/or addicts have - we can see JL> our addiction and that we are the problem. There comes a point at JL> which denial just doesn't work for us anymore and we know we need There is a phonetic input which always helps me when I forget about denial and the problems it causes. This is to listen to the sound of the word *deny* and then think of the word *nigh* and then re-spell the word and ponder on *de-nigh*. There is a saying of God to the people of The Book which says that God is closer to man than his own jugular vein. So, this problem of denial is not just one for the addict or the compulsive, it is the root of spiritual malaise as is eventually manifested by resentment. Through the 12 Steps I am given a chance to be nigh on well one day at a time and given the courage to not de-nigh with my prejudices quite so much as I might one time have done - thus even things which are nigh on disturbing to me might in fact still be nigh on necessary to the mysterious workings of this remarkable and amazing life! Love to you and yours, Best wishes, Andrew. .!. I'm not tense, just terribly A*L*E*R*T. --- Terminate 3.00 * Origin: A Point of shelter, waiting at a Bus Stop..... (2:2502/28.4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5K00030 Date: 05/13/96 From: ANDREW DETTMAN Time: 04:08am \/To: RUTH ANNE NELSON (Read 0 times) Subj: Recovery in crisis ~ Hello Ruth Anne Nelson, keep coming back... Monday, 6 May 1996 09:29:00, Ruth Anne Nelson wrote to William Kinmond Subject: Recovery in crisis RAN> them that. But so is the love they many times cannot escape from RAN> feeling. Alateens have shown me so much hope, for passing on what RAN> I never had, for seeing the cycle of addictions and dysfunction RAN> broken, for letting them know there is hope in the world. It is a RAN> blessing, a gift from my Higher Power. Keep working your program. RAN> I'm sure your HP will share some of this hope with you. Love in RAN> the fellowship, Ruth Anne :) It's so heartwarming to hear someone living their name...RUTHFUL! Beautiful, so much can be appearing as ruthless. Thankyou. Best wishes, Andrew. .!. Ruling a country is like cooking a small fish. Lao-tzu --- Terminate 3.00 * Origin: A Point of shelter, waiting at a Bus Stop..... (2:2502/28.4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5K00031 Date: 05/15/96 From: RAIN Time: 03:25pm \/To: LINDA GLOVER (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: multi-program recovery -> > 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, and ask them to put -> > on the list; you'll get an excellent monthly newsletter crammed wit -> -> Thanks a bunch...I'll do that today! Sounds like my type of thing -> to do anyway :-)!!! I can almost guarantee you'll love it. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 * Origin: Louisville Hot House (1:2320/180.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5K00032 Date: 05/14/96 From: ED KASKY Time: 10:57am \/To: TIM DILL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: X-country Trip On 08 May 96 18:27 Tim wrote . . . TD> here I will be able to reeply via bluewave.. until then I am still TD> sober but in Brooklyn.. ;-) Does this mean that one can't stay sober in Brooklyn? I mean I know they talk funny and all... I got your message about the quick exit. I wasn't home when you called. The kids are well educated about what to say when we're not home... Stay in touch and it's good you made it safely to the Big Apple. Ed ps -- How you gonna get your stuff shipped??? ... Fine line between fishing & standing on shore looking like an idiot. --- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.30 * Origin: 12 Steps BBS via Hooray For Hollywood 213-653-7508 (1:102/749) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5L00000 Date: 05/16/96 From: JUDITH LABONTE Time: 12:40pm \/To: ANDREW DETTMAN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: multi-program recovery AD>There is a phonetic input which always helps me when I forget about AD>denial and the problems it causes. This is to listen to the sound of the AD>word *deny* and then think of the word *nigh* and then re-spell the word AD>and ponder on *de-nigh*. AD>There is a saying of God to the people of The Book which says that God AD>is closer to man than his own jugular vein. So, this problem of denial AD>is not just one for the addict or the compulsive, it is the root of AD>spiritual malaise as is eventually manifested by resentment. AD>Through the 12 Steps I am given a chance to be nigh on well one day at a AD>time and given the courage to not de-nigh with my prejudices quite so AD>much as I might one time have done - thus even things which are nigh on AD>disturbing to me might in fact still be nigh on necessary to the AD>mysterious workings of this remarkable and amazing life! Well I'm not sure precisely what you mean by the "people of the Book" but anyone who can come up with such a profound saying must have something right. As I believe I have said to you before, I have always loved the reading in AS BILL SEES IT which I believe is on page 95, if I remember right, which talks about the 12 steps and our recovery fellowship/s as being "spiritual kindegarten". Somewhere else in the literature we are encouraged to try to be quick to see where spiritual and religious folks are correct. I try to do this to the best of my ability and implement what I find useful in my 11th step work, while ignoring anything that doesn't seem to be right for me in the meantime. I agree when you talk about a general spiritual malaise which many folks outside the halls of recovery seem to have as well as us and I agree with what you say about "de-nighing"; however, is it any wonder that many of us push away intimacy with (a) Higher Power(s) when so many of us today seem to have trouble with intimacy with each other - and I am NOT talking sex here, but the true meaning of intimacy. (real closeness based on actual communication based on honesty, openess and trust - to whatever degree is appropriate in any particular relationship) About that spiritual malaise, I believe we alcoholics and/or drug addicts have an advantage - along with others who have been brought to the brink with their addiction, like a compulsive gambler or possibly a sexual addict. I guess what I am saying is those of us whom society has forced to SEE our addiction/compulsion by the strong social condemnation of our condition. I repeat, I believe those of us in these conditions are FORTUNATE because we know we have a deep need and we are given the "gift of desperation" most powerfully. It is harder for us to deny our addiction than addictions that are more socially acceptable. Like codependency - and I am also a codependent. For me, this addiction to unhealthy, dependent relationships was and is harder to deal with because of the blame factor. It is easy to blame it all on the other party, esp. to friends of the same gender. Some blanket, untrue statement such as "men are dirt" usually absolves one of blame and I'm sure men have statements like that about women - I've heard them. It keeps me from having to look at MY part of the problem. I find the same is true as a Survivor of Incest and as an ACOA. It is easy to blame the addicted birth-mother for the dysfunction in our home and not look at the role I played. It is easy to blame her for her part in the abuse and other abusers because IT IS THERE FAULT - children don't have choices or don't know it when they do. As a result of my abuse I have a lot of anger and it would be easy just to vent that at everyone all the time because I am a survivor; however, in that case I am a perpetrator of emotional abuse to others, usually adults - but just because they are adults, doesn't make it right. At some point, to recover, I had to accept that I had been abused and I was powerless over it, look at the consequences of the abuse in my life and have the courage to change the things I can. Sure, blaming my shortcomings and charector defects on the abuse is nice and neat - and it leaves me JUST as powerless as I was, forever remaining a victim. Until I embrace the power to change old behaviors, that may have once been survival techniques, I am still a victim, in my experience. When I embrace the power to change and to LIVE on any given day, I am a survivor. But it is so subtle and insidiously tempting to just blame others and not deal with it on some days that I do go back to old behaviors on those days. Thanks Heaven - and Earth - that I know I can choose to go back to my recovery whenever I am ready to stop hurting. Another addiction I have a problem with denial about is compulsive overeating. I have no recovery whatsoever in that area of my life and it's wrecking my body, my health, to the max. Again, it is easy to make excuses - low blood sugar is always a good excuse to eat when I shouldn't, for me, for example. But I don't need much excuse. Again, beyond people laughing at me - which is pretty horribly cruel at times - this is pretty much a socially acceptable addiction, right up until it kills someone, from what I've seen. I imagine workaholics or compulsive debtors might say their addictive or compulsive behaviors are easy to deny because most of society will accept such behavior. I might have remained unaware of all these addictions as well as most of my character defects and shortcomings, if I wasn't an alcoholic and an addict. Thank God/ess - or whatever Higher Power the reader chooses - that THIS scared me enough to start me on the road to recovery. And the fear of picking up another drink or a drug scares me enough to keep me doing what I have to do to recover - because I know it's usually true that if I don't keep going forward with my recovery, I tend to fall behind. There doesn't seem to be any place to just sit and rest for a bit. So it forces me to do what I have to do to keep making progress - which eventually forces me to deal with all this other "stuff", or at least to admit it. I guess that is step 6 and 7. Boy, I sure have been rambling - see what you got into with that? Of course all of this stuff does keep me from getting true intimacy in my life - not only with my fellow human beings, but also with the Higher Power/s, as you pointed out. By the way, you may want to ask your SYSOP about picking up the Fido Interfaith echo - I think you'd enjoy it. Occasionally there is some religiosity there, but it's easy to ignore it. And there is absolutely NO flaming allowed. Also, there is an awful lot of really nice people. --- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00219) * Origin: Dreamer's Lot BBS * Shrewsbury * Ma * 508-798-4188(1:322/758) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5M00000 Date: 05/15/96 From: SHARON STEVENS Time: 12:30pm \/To: TIM DILL (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: X-country Trip In a note to Linda, that I eavesdropped in on, you said... TD>I am here in NYC a week or so early... lost my place to stay last sunday TD>nite and left cal on monday.... most of my stuff is still in ca... even TD>my 'puter.. hopefully this message get's to the folks it's TD>supposed to get to.. Hi you... 8-} TD>been real crazy the last coupla as soon as I get an account set up here TD>I will be able to reeply via bluewave.. until then I am still sober but TD>in Brooklyn.. ;-) So, are you saying that you have moved to NYC? Or are you there for a visit?? I haven't been paying much attention to this echo.. life has done a real good job of interferring lately.. 8-} Chow chow chow................for now..............Sharon Stevens. * SLMR 2.1a * I'd give my right arm to be ambidextorous..... --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: It works, if you let it - Quesnel, B.C. Canada (1:3404/160) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D5M00001 Date: 05/15/96 From: SOBER SWEDE Time: 10:46pm \/To: TIM DILL (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: X-country Trip Hi Tim, -=> Quoting Tim Dill to Linda Glover <=- Welcome to "WaterWorld USA" That is NY State now. We've had so much rain here hardly a day goes by without. Today was beautiful tho' and shouldn't complain. We were supposed ot have a thunderstorm again but it went somewhere else. (for change) At least we don't have hurrincanes or earthquakes so I guess we shouldn't complain too much. I'll bet you're colder tho' than your used to. TD> I am here in NYC a week or so early... lost my place to stay last TD> sunday nite and left cal on monday.... most of my stuff is still in TD> ca... even my 'puter.. hopefully this message get's to the folks TD> it's supposed to get to.. TD> been real crazy the last coupla as soon as I get an account set up TD> here I will be able to reeply via bluewave.. until then I am still TD> sober but in Brooklyn.. ;-) Did you get straightened out with that stupid drug test? That didn't go into your record did it? If so you should have it fixed. There are lots of foods you can eat that can cause a bad test. They say poppy seeds can do it. Hope i all came out ok for you. So far I'm not back at work adn am getting a bit depressed. I'm seeing the doctor tomorrow morning. I still have a problem with one of the incisions. I try to be patient. Maybe HP is tryign to tell me something and I'm not listening? Are you going to find a Wicca group in your new surroundings? I haven't been t a meeting in a while now. (since the operation) I think I'll get to my home group next Mon nite tho'. I'm overdue. Maybe it'll help just getting in a group again. Hope all goes well with the move. Andrea ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10 * Origin: The Rochester Exchange 716-359-9468 Rochester NY (1:2613/203.0)