--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2E00004 Date: 02/07/96 From: HARRIET LEVY Time: 2:48:am \/To: TIM DILL (Read 1 times) Subj: Subject Below Was.... => A hush fell over the room when Tim Dill said to Richard Ward <== TD> On (31 Jan 96) Richard Ward was mumbling to HARRIET LEVY... RW> ... Love Thy Neighbour - But don't get caught. L. Long TD> Some nieghbor.... 3000 miles away ;-) Patience, Tim, patience.....this too will pass ;-) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- * Origin: Communication Specialties, NYC * (212) 645-8673 (1:278/307) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2E00005 Date: 02/08/96 From: HARRIET LEVY Time: 2:26:am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Cure for Alcoholism? ==> A hush fell over the room when Mhs:jane Kelley@1:138/240 said to Harriet Levy <== JK> Dunno about where you live but around here we have very competent JK> folks who run inpatient treatment centers and are more than willing to JK> share with the rest of us any new information obtained any place JK> concerning recovery. This is done by lectures to the general public, JK> folks who don't have the time or the resources to go to treatment. Gee Jane, I got sober in the rooms of AA. Perhaps, since I didn't need to be in an inpatient treatment center I'm not a *real* alcoholic. I seem to remember you accusing me of that a couple of years ago.... JK> I am sober because a counselor at Shadel Hospital in Seattle, the JK> first tretment center around here, got me to work there in 1969. I I'm sober because a dear friend 12-stepped me in AA. It was *there* that I learned if I didn't pick up the first one, I wouldn't get drunk. It was also in AA that I learned that I had a choice as to whether or not to pick up the first one. Lest you think I've been slacking on my recovery, I've been the therapy route, and have discovered certain neurotransmitter problems that may or may not have been a predisposition to my drinking....however, I don't think that since those have been taken care of (chemically) I can feel free to drink like a non-alcoholic. Therefore, it occurs to me, that whatever the cause, be it emotional, mental or physical, once the pattern of alcoholic drinking is set, there can be no return to non-alcoholic drinking. I'm not sure what your point in these messages is. Are you espousing therapy, inpatient rehabs, nutrition or what? Also, I've not noticed anything regarding the spiritual aspect of AA in any of your posts? Do you actually work this program, or are you doing a variation of it that is of your own devising? JK> Unless, of course, you know more than the folks who put Dr. JK> Silkworth's letters at the beginning of the first edition, or the JK> beginning of the First Step of the program. Funny thing, but I never questioned that. What I got from Dr. Silkworth's letters is that there is *something* about my makeup that prevents me from drinking like a non-alcoholic. That's about all I need to know. The end result is the same, I don't drink... no matter what. Personally, my life is too full these days to ponder the greater questions of the universe, like *why* I can't seem to drink like a non-alcoholic. As far as the first step of the program, that I've taken it is pretty obvious, as I've been sober for almost 7 years. For me, that is due to the fact that I've: a. Not taken a drink b. Attend meetings regularly c. See to my spiritual condition on a daily basis. d. Maintain regular contact with my sponsor in order to *reality* check. e. Continue to sponsor other people, which serves as a reminder *to me* of the tools that maintain my sobriety. Lest you think that I'm a complete idiot, I'm college educated, am a licensed health professional, and am considering doing graduate work in the mental health field. All this notwithstanding, when I'm in a 12-Step recovery forum, I talk about recovery via the 12-steps. ... Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends.... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- * Origin: Communication Specialties, NYC * (212) 645-8673 (1:278/307) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2E00006 Date: 02/08/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:57am \/To: ELAINE LOVELESS (Read 1 times) Subj: Question? EL>Sounds to me like they need a good medical doctor, not a therapist! EL>I guess I'm lucky on that score......I have always made it very clear up EL>front that I'm a recovering alcoholic, my doctor's and I discuss my EL>medical conditions as well as treatment options.....but I don't need a EL>therapist to do that......:) Friend brought over her copy of the First Edition of the Big Book over the weekend. After the table of contents, and the title of the first chapter, it stated out on the first page: "We of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the reader will be interested in the medical estimate of the plan of recovery described in this book. " The next page says: "The physician who, AT OUR REQUEST, gave us this letter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in another statement which follows. In this statement he confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture MUST BELIEVE-that the BODY OF THE ALCOHOLIC IS QUITE AS ABNORMAL AS HIS MIND. It did not satisfy us to be told that we could not control our drinking just because we were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight from reality, or were outright mental defectives. THese things were true to some extent, in fact, to a considerable extent with some of us. But we are sure that our bodies were sickened as well. IN OUR BELIEF< ANY PICTURE OF THE ALCOHOLIC WHICH LEAVES OUT THIS PHYSICAL FACTOR IS INCOMPLETE." In case you don't recognize the rhetoric, it is from "The Doctor's Opinion" which used to be the start of Step One. It was the first thing one saw when the first edition was opened. Since then it has been buried behind the forwards to the various editions from those who came later and pontificated on one thing or another. I am one of the many "Friends of Dr. Bob", alcoholics in recovery with some knowledge of medicine or other scientific subjects who have gone on from the allergy theory proposed by Dr. Silkworth. Because of the collective efforts of those who came before me who taught me, those I have worked and shared with, and those who follow, the diseases of both addiction and mental illness are becoming tamed. There is no need today for sober alcoholics to have heart problems, arthritis, cancer, and other problems after they quit drinking at a young age. These and the cost to society can be prevented. It is the responsible thing to do, to assume full responsiblity for the disease we were born with, not to depend upon something or someone else to care for a physical body we won't. * SLMR 2.1a * What do politicians and hemorroids have in common? --- JCQWK * Origin: The Moody Blues BBS, Graham, WA (360) 893-3101 (1:138/155) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2E00007 Date: 02/08/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:57am \/To: RICHARD WARD (Read 1 times) Subj: Question? RW>... Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time & annoys the pig RW>L.Long Alcoholics will shed their denial when someone who has the facts they need to make a decision, any decision, presents them. * SLMR 2.1a * My "Inner Child" can be a really nasty bitch! --- JCQWK * Origin: The Moody Blues BBS, Graham, WA (360) 893-3101 (1:138/155) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2E00008 Date: 02/08/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:57am \/To: RICHARD WARD (Read 1 times) Subj: Free Dog RW>CG> While the Big Book clearly states that we have a physical disease, as RW> JK> Sorry. The cause of alcoholism in not alcohol, it is but a symptom. W RW>Jane, I appreciate much of the data that you enter here however this echo is RW>for 12 step oriented chatting/lite sharing. To the best of my 23+ years f RW>recollection of what I heard in meetings the need to numb the mind/brain/ RW>memory, kill the pain, avoid the feelings/ whatever was reason enough to RW>"drink". NOT picking up the first one, ODAAT, was the best way we had RW>found that worked for about ONE out of FOUR of us. The first edition started out with these words after the table of contents: "We of Alcoholis Anonymous believe that the reader will be interested in the medical estimate of the plan of recovery described in this book." The next page said: "The physician who, AT OUR REQUEST, gave us this letter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in another statement which follows. In this statement his confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture MUST BELIEVE-that the body of the alcoholic is quite as abnormal as his mind.".......In our belief, any picture of the alcoholic which leaves out this physical factor is incomplete." The Doctor's Opinion is the beginning of Step One. Its full importance has been obscured in the Big Book by the forwards which are full of some opinion that came well after the first edition. In 60 years, much has been learned by those in recovery who have medical or scientific knowledge and understanding. The allergy theory has been cussed and discussed and new understanding and knowledge arose from these discussions. The present enlightened treatment of both addicts and the mentally ill stem from the work of Dr. Silkworth and others who Bill discussed in the phamphlet "Lets Be Friendly to Our Friends." RW>Although I keep up with much of what is written on the subjects of lcohol, RW>other addictions and treatments of them I haven't become aware of any RW>successes RW>greater then about one out of four. When nutrition is added to other treatment methods, the recovery rate goes from around 37 to 81%. That information was in a paper I originally found hanging on the wall of the Alano Club in Burien (part of Seattle) a few years ago which started me on the path to finding ways to enhance the quality of my own life. The success rate is much higher than 25% today when other things are added as well. RW>Perhaps you would get more satisfactionif these topics were discussed in a RW>medical/health forum. I remember back in 1972/3 being involved in a RW>psychodrama sistuation. We used to invite the med students from Stoneybrook I graduated from St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington D.C. when psychodrama was in its infancy as were some other techniques used with the mentally ill. This is not an appropriate way to use psychodrama. It requires both participation and a therapist who knows the technique, is live, and folks take both sides of an issue. These topics are traditionally part of step one and need to be available to all alcoholics. The reason why they aren't is that folks who understand them generally will not sit down and do this kind of work at a computer but charge large sums to have many folks sit down and listen in all day seminars. Last one I attended cost me over $50.00. * SLMR 2.1a * Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up. --- JCQWK * Origin: The Moody Blues BBS, Graham, WA (360) 893-3101 (1:138/155) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2E00009 Date: 02/08/96 From: JOAN REA Time: 04:09pm \/To: LYNDA NUSSER (Read 1 times) Subj: Newcomer/god Wow. It is true that 'good enough is the enemy of all progress' and boy am I paying now. I learned to get onto the BBSs with my little atari and the falshII but have never gotten around to learning how to download or use an off line reader now, I will lose that as soon as it is deleted from the BBS's files. How many times do I have to learn that 'good enough' ain't good enough any more. Joan Z --- Squish v1.01 * Origin: Transformations BBS Edmonton, Alta. (1:342/602) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2G00000 Date: 02/09/96 From: TIM DILL Time: 11:29am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Question? On (07 Feb 96) Jane Kelley was mumbling to Anthony Defilippi... JK> Depends. I hit my patients with a lot of education beginning when ^^^^^^^^^? JK> they first come through the door. Annotations mine, So Jane, we are not fellow recovering addicts or alcoholics to you? Just patients awaiting treatment....? You see the Army treated me like that and I still went on drinking for 6 more years....... and I remember what hell that put me through... Please confine your "sharing" here to your PERSONAL experience only that directly relates to your "recovery".... We are not health care professionals here, we are a MUTUAL support group of sorts that are based very loosely on the 12 Steps of Whatever fellowship you belong to.. that is based on the experience of the Moderator of this echo as well as mine.. We don't give unasked for advice (from the Alanon program) nor do we play "Doctor" here, doing that may do more harm than good... So please limit your comments to "whatever" program you are working or I will ask your sysop to disconnect you.... Simple enough? Tim Dill Asst. Moderator Recovery Echo --- PPoint 2.00 * Origin: Trudging the road in Torrance Ca. (1:116/3000.13) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2G00001 Date: 02/08/96 From: LYNDA NUSSER Time: 03:20pm \/To: RICH WARD (Read 0 times) Subj: Newcomer/god Hi Rich! In a message (01-22-96) to me you quoted and wrote: RW> LN> In a message (01-04-96) to Christian Hedemark regarding the steps and t RW> LN> suggested (numerical) order, you wrote: RW> LN> TA>So, I guess what I'm saying is, I did what I could, when I could, RW> LN> TA>but still did em all.... Besides who says you only work em once RW> LN> TA>So my slant is do what you can, but keep workin em. The order will RW> LN> TA>sort itself out. RW> LN> I agree... my first sponsor told me that the numbers were there for a RW>Well, you know how it is with FIRST sponsors! ;-) I've always nderstood RW>that the numbers were put in front of certain sentences in the paragraph o RW>help some of us who hadn't 'cleared up' enough ..... RW> LN> reason, but if something presented itself in my life (like a cessary I shared my experience with making amends (living changes in my life) for the first 10 months of my sobriety... living at home with my folks... and that when my father suddenly died God had worked it out in a way that I felt able to live with myself and God without regrets. With my father I felt the amends had been made, even though, out of order. I went on to say, Rich, that working the steps (in order) seemed a natural sequence for me. Which I did. I don't understand what you found in my post to disagree with. Can you explain? I'm obviously still missing something. I hope I'm not the first to tell you today -----------------------I__L_O_V_E__Y_O_U__!----------------------- (((Rich))) Lynda === * SLMR 2.1a * God's delays are not God's denials. * KMail 3.00y --- Squish v1.01 * Origin: The Idea Link - Technologies for Society (301) 949-5764 :109/432) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2G00002 Date: 02/10/96 From: ELAINE LOVELESS Time: 05:49pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: RE: QUESTION? On 8 Feb 96 08:57am, Jane Kelley wrote to Elaine Loveless: EL>>Sounds to me like they need a good medical doctor, not a therapist! EL>>I guess I'm lucky on that score......I have always made it very clear up EL>>front that I'm a recovering alcoholic, my doctor's and I discuss my EL>>medical conditions as well as treatment options.....but I don't need a EL>>therapist to do that......:) JK> arthritis, cancer, and other problems after they quit drinking at a JK> young age. These and the cost to society can be prevented. It is the JK> responsible thing to do, to assume full responsiblity for the disease we JK> were born with, not to depend upon something or someone else to care for JK> a physical body we won't. There are physical problems that are in no way related to alcoholism....there are non-alcoholics who have heart disease, diabetes, all kinds of ills......and I don't think that every time one of them gets sick they have to run to a therapist to tell them they need to go to a medical doctor. I personally don't feel like I have to see a therapist to send me to a medical doctor if I have a health problem either......if I have a physical problem I go to the doctor....plain simple fact of life....it's been that way for the last 11+ years. Matter of fact I went to a therapist not too long ago who very pointedly told me that AA was the best support group I could use....that I didn't need a therapist....I think each person is an individual case and to make a blanket statement that alcoholics can't get sober or have a good quality of sobriety unless they go through treatment or therapy is a bunch of hogwash! Having a Master's degree in special education, I've taken a fair number of psychology courses myself, ever heard of self-fullfilling prophecy? Well, if you tell a person something long enough and hard enough, they will begin to believe it! Have had students in my class that were recovering alcoholics and we've sat and talked one alcoholic to another sharing our experience, strenght and hope......and because I was willing to share that I was an alcoholic, and let them know that I had been there and done those things too, we could reach a common ground...that to me is what this program is about..... ... "It's not as if lives hang in the balance, right?" -- Calvin Bright Blessings, Elaine * Silver Xpress V4.01P SW12813 --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.03M1 --- Squish/386 v1.11 * Origin: The Crossroads BBS, Round Rock, Texas (512) 255-8985 (1:382/506)