--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2200014 Date: 01/31/96 From: MARTIN WAXMAN Time: 08:18pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: newer version of old message My old girlfriend gave me this. I posted a similar message a whil ago. this one just has a newer twist that the last one. ____________________________________________________________________ I hate your meetings. I hate your 12 steps. In fact, I hate anybody who has anything to do with a recovery program. Allow me to ntroduce myself..... I am your addiction. I am known to many in your program as "cunning, baffling and powerful". And yet, i did not come uninvited. You chose me. In fact, you welcomed me with open arms. I was your courage, your strength and your hope. I took away your feelings of being shy, angry, lonely, tired, hungry, and happy. Eventually, I took away any feeling you ever had until you were nothing but an empty shell - void of any feelings at all. When we first met, you said that you didn't deserve all the good things you had in life. I was the only one who agreed with you and was more than happy to take it all away from you. But now you claim to have found a better way? You say that you have found a Higher Power? HA! I thought I was your Higher Power. Wasn't it me you used to turn to every morning and pray that I would stay down in your guts? Wasn't it me that you used to ask to steady your nerves an give you courage to face the world again? I thought it would be you and me forever - friends to the end. And damn it, I almost had you until the end. But I let you slip away from me. I had wrapped around my finger. I could make you beg, barrow and steel just to have me. I had you at the point of believing that suicide was the only way out... ...until your so-called Higher Power came to the rescue. But thats ok. I'm patient - I can wait. You can't see me, but ou'll always remember me. And every once in a while, I'll remind you that I'm still here waiting for you to return. So until we meet again.... (If we meet again), I wish you a long painful, suffering death like you could have had with me. ____________________________________________________________________ To those of you who are having a rough time of it in recovery, I hope that this sheds a bit of lite on what is out there for you. The same holds true for those who are on what is known as the pink cloud stage of recovery. The cloud is not forever and can sometimes be a dangerous place to be. Hope you all got something from this post. Marty --- msgedsq 2.0.4 * Origin: Marty's Place Mesa, AZ (1:114/136.4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2200015 Date: 02/01/96 From: TIM DILL Time: 09:52am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Question? On (29 Jan 96) Jane Kelley was mumbling to Elaine Loveless... JK> For this reason, I changed this to another conference as both JK> moderators are hounding me for not sticking to the topic their minds JK> laid out for this month. I was at first not gonna get involved in this shooting match of wills but........ As I understand it 12_steps is designated as a step study echo... the rules of the conference over there where originally formulated by Joe Jared and later approved by the participants involved. All this happened way before you or I ever got on line... I will be watching your behavior closely here because I have watched it over on 12_steps..... Please don't belittle a fellow moderator (who happens to participate here) again.. this is in poor taste.... Fair enough? Tim Dill Asst. Moderator Recovery Echo --- PPoint 2.00 * Origin: Trudging the road in Torrance Ca. (1:116/3000.13) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2200016 Date: 02/01/96 From: TIM DILL Time: 10:08am \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Feb rules ------------------=========================------------------------ RECOVERY ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE - FidoNet -- Status: RECOVERY is a moderated conference carried on the FidoNet Backbone. RECOVERY is an "open forum" type conversational conference for the discussion of topics related to addictions and recovery from them; also, announcements of RECOVERY related gatherings (conferences, workshops, speaker meetings, etc.) are in order. [The above paragraph does not really LIMIT the topics SINCE we ALL drank or used (or whatever word you choose) over anything and every- thing at one time or another.] RECOVERY is for those involved in the various "12 Step" recovery programs, as well as for those WHO ARE not involved in a recovery program but WHO HAVE a desire to deal with recovery from THEIR additive BEHAVIOR AND ARE INTERESTED IN CONVERSING WITH THOSE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN 12 STEP PROGRAMS. This includes AA, NA, Al-Anon, OA, EA, SLAA and many other such 12-step-BASED groups. -- Rules: Darned few! Promotion of "commercial ventures" such as treatment facilities or clinics is not in order. General rules of social conduct are always in order. Repeated "abusive/annoying" messages * may draw comment from the moderator or be brought to the attention * of the Moderator by other conference participants. * ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NOTE: As RECOVERY is not a part of or affiliated with _ANY_ recovery program, attempting to impose traditions, membership requirements, etc. of any specific program is out of order. To SysOps: Please refrain from posting "test" messages in this conference. The additional traffic of tests and the resulting replies is not desirable. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ** It is OK to give a [business not another members] address or telephone number in response to a direct request from a co-user of the echo, without further comment (no price listing or list of items etc). Rich Ward, 102/749.7 Tim Dill 116/3000.13 102/749.2 Moderator Asst. Moderator Just in passing:- These statements, used to guide SysOps, might well be mentioned here for all callers to note. 1.) You shall not be excessively ANNOYING. 2.) You shall not be too easily ANNOYED. --- PPoint 2.00 * Origin: Trudging the road in Torrance Ca. (1:116/3000.13) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2200017 Date: 02/01/96 From: MARGE CLARK Time: 12:47pm \/To: JOAN RENNE (Read 1 times) Subj: Alcologic I thought I heard Joan Renne (1:285/662) say: ->>Jane, Jane, Jane. I am 13+ years sober. AlcoLOGIC is alcoHOLIC ->>thinking. Nothing more. ->>I believe it was Marge that coined the word. nope. I borrowed it from Harriet's first sponsor......and refuse to return it! thank you, tho. I wish I had that much originality. ;-( --- msged 2.06 * Origin: The Homestead (1:116/3000.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2300000 Date: 02/01/96 From: WOLFMAN Time: 05:41pm \/To: KURT J. TISCHER (Read 1 times) Subj: Relationships suck, but.. KJT> Well, I must clarify that she only went to him *that night* KJT> because she knew he wouldn't leave her alone if KJT> she didn't. We still see KJT> each when we can and the relationship is not on KJT> the same level as it was Kurt, I am extremely glad you answered back, as I said I cannot completely empathize with your situation, but I have been close enough I think I can offer some practical advice that is trustworthy. Let me begin by saying that I wish I could introduce you to my daughter, becouse you sound just like the kind of man I wish she would meet. Now the bad news. I don't know how old you are, but I suspect it is not much past 26. One thging I have learned in the past year (I just started paying attention) is that people are basically rotten. After all, I got so drunk I would hit my wife, the woman for whom I would gladly suffer and die, and didn't even know it in the morning; one can't get much worse than that. I am glad yours left with him if for no other reason than it saved you more physical pain, but I also see the emotional pain it must have caused you, and I do empathize. As I said in the first reply, people live as they want to, and if she left with him, or took up with him again, it is because there is somethin in the relationship she is willing to accept. Whatever her problem is, don't let it affect you, it isn't worth it. Just be friend and nothing more. Stay aloof if that is what it takes. Be there when she need to talk, but don't expect more, because she isn't looking for a nice uy. I don't know if you are attending meetings, but if so strike up some FRIENDSHIPS there and let them be just that. iYour right woman will come long when the time is right. Until then don't hook up with the wrong woman just or female companionship. Out of time and room, later. Wolfman --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: the silent scream * 1-405-943-1068 (1:147/27) --- PCBoard (R) v15.22 (OS/2) 10 --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2300001 Date: 02/01/96 From: JUDITH LABONTE Time: 02:43pm \/To: HARRIET LEVY (Read 1 times) Subj: Question? ==> A hush fell over the room when Mhs:anthony Defilippi@1:1 said to Jane HL>Kelley <== HL> AD> take care Jane.... BTW I move this message from 12 Step to here in HL> AD> order to comply with a certain co-moderator's wishes..... HL>The co-moderator in question appreciates it, I'm sure. HL>Harriet HL>___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] HL>--- HL> * Origin: Communication Specialties, NYC * (212) 645-8673 (1:278/307) HL> Hi Harriet!!, Can you believe that, at least on this software, I figured out how to quote? Anyway, I just wanted to say Hi! I believe you celebrate a certain festival or holiday in early Feb. and to you and all who do, I wish to say "Good Imbole" or whatever else you call it. (And I know there are a few other names) As for what's up with me, see the message I wrote to Tim Dill, if you're interested. And if I'm wrong about you're celebrating said holiday, please forgive me. Blessed Be Matrika --- KBBS/Shareware * Licensed for 30 day evaluation only * Origin: Dreamer's Lot BBS * Shrewsbury * Ma * 508-798-4188(1:322/758) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2300002 Date: 02/01/96 From: JUDITH LABONTE Time: 03:41pm \/To: LYNDA NUSSER (Read 1 times) Subj: Bill w. sobriety date Lynda I appreciate your remarks to Guido, about cross addiction in AA - esp. since you don't impose your views on anyone else, but keep the focus on yourself, which is excellent. However I also appreciate what Guido had to say. I tried to reply to your message before, but I ran out of time and I thought I'd try again. I am an alcoholic and drug addict who has been clean and sober for 8 2/3 years - it will be 9 on April 18th. I am also recovering from Codependency and as an ACOA in Al-Anon - or trying to. Besides this I am recovering from the after-effects of childhood sexual abuse in Survivors of Incest Anonymous. I am also "dually diagnosed" as I have a "minor" bipolar affective disorder called Cyclothymia and I have been to both Emotions Anonymous and Dual Recovery Anonymous to deal with it. In fact I believe E.A. was the first 12 step fellowship I ever entered. I also go to a professional therapist who is excellent and a psychiatrist who is adequate. I AM willing to keep these issues seperate - I really am. I know a few moderators on some of the OTHER Fido echoes oriented to specific recovery issues who probably don't believe this, but I am. I just don't know how. If you are taking both alcohol and drugs, which increase your depression as well, when you behaved in a certain way, do you share that in AA, NA or EA as well as at Dual Recovery Anonymous? Which is it? I relapsed over 9 years ago due to living with a "dry drunk" EX husband who was still smoking pot - and a lot easier to deal with while on it - do I share that at AA or NA or Al-Anon? (The relapse was primarily marijuana, but I KNEW I was an alcoholic at the time and NOT that I was a drug "addict" as I saw that as being like the heroin and coke addicts I worked with in detox at that time. But I knew I needed to cut out the pot when I picked up only four sips of wine at a Passover seder at my in-laws house. I usually brought kosher grape juice for me, but this year I didn't bother - you know some say slip stands for Sobriety Loses It's Priority and I agree. But that was enough to scare me back to AA the very next day or so after. How do I explain my relapse and return at AA without bringing up the marijuana or my codepence and my enabling of my ex? When I know that for me drinking and drugs were done to mute the pain that came from growing up as an ACOA and a survivor of severe abuse, including some sexual abuse, from my birth-mother, a pill addict, and some neighbors mostly, as well as other severe abuse from fellow students at school because I was different - a freak as they called it - how and where do I share that? Especially when my first intentional, planned drug use was to get through one day of the hell at school while trying to impress the other kids that I was using drugs - in the sixties, that was still impressive to kids - so they'd get the heck off of my back? How do you decide how to fragment your story to tell the right piece in the right place? I've been known to quote a man from the greater D.C. area somewhere who had sobriety in the late forties or early fifties (no. of years sober) who had known Bill W. and had been instrumental in bringing AA down south. He once told a newcomer that if he had a pimple where he sat and it hurt and he wanted to drink because of it, that this belongs in an AA meeting. I tend to agree with that. I also believe some folks can take this to an extreme and some of the concerns you mentioned to Guido - vis a vis the Washingtonians and AA's continuance as a movement ALSO come into play and are very important. So I CAN hear where the other side of the coin is coming from - really I do. I've been at meetings where someone got up and talked about being GAY for the whole period they spoke - half the meeting, which is 30 minutes - and I never once heard them relate it to booze. Alot of people felt like, well so what you're gay? What does that have to do with staying sober. So I can relate to the frustrations of those who may not see that this man may have had to speak about being gay because it was something he had a lot of conflicts about and he thought we would understand he was concerned that that would make him drink. I know what he must feel. When I speak or share I do it FOR ME and not for everyone else. In other words, I say what I need to say. However, I also know it is nearly impossible sometimes for some of us to know how to sort out our stories and what goes where, as well as what might be better shared only with a sponsor. I have left several other recovery-oriented echoes on Fido that address specific topics when the moderators asked me to do this. This was not solely out of anger or a resentment, although I confess that I did feel these things at first in a couple of cases. HOWEVER, the reason I have stayed away is because I respect that the Group Conscience of those on these echoes supports the moderator and I honor the fact that each group of people who support the moderators in those echoes have to deal with their common welfare coming first and personal recovery may depend on this decision FOR the common good. And I realized that I just didn't know how to split myself up like this. I just really don't know how. How do you - and anyone else - who is facing multiple addictions and/or other issues in recovery decide what is appropriate to share where? If you don't mind sharing this, I could really use some pointers on this. I know it may sound corny, but I really don't know HOW to do it and what goes where. As a result, I share on this echo and a couple of others where people are comfortable with my style of sharing, while staying away from others. But I am WILLING to learn - or trying to be. s (oops, don't know this software yet - that didn't safe it. GRIN) --- KBBS/Shareware * Licensed for 30 day evaluation only * Origin: Dreamer's Lot BBS * Shrewsbury * Ma * 508-798-4188(1:322/758) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2300003 Date: 02/01/96 From: JUDITH LABONTE Time: 03:41pm \/To: RICH WARD (Read 1 times) Subj: Bill W. Sobriety Date Re - The BB being written by Bill W. - not only did he write like 99% of it, but he wrote the chapter TO WIVES as if he was his own wife. Lois - his wife - offered to help him with it and was hurt when he declined, giving her only that he wanted it all in the same style, as an excuse. I guess even Bill didn't get entirely honest in all his affairs overnight, huh? Personally, I find that rather humorous - and this is why I take the AL-Anon literature lots more seriously on that particular area, over the big book. --- KBBS/Shareware * Licensed for 30 day evaluation only * Origin: Dreamer's Lot BBS * Shrewsbury * Ma * 508-798-4188(1:322/758) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 231 RECOVERY Ref: D2300004 Date: 02/01/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:25am \/To: ELAINE LOVELESS (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: RE: QUESTION? EL> Ah, so if a person doesn't go through treatment, they can't have EL> complete recovery.......by the way what is complete recovery? For EL> myself I find that I have a daily reprieve from my disease based on EL> my EL> spiritual condition for that day.......But then I can understand that EL> if EL> a person receives pay for being a therapist for recovering alcoholics EL> they would certainly want people to go to treatment and get what they This therapist has gotten sick and tired of watching her friends who have over 20 years of A.A. get very ill from physical diseases that seem to go along with alcoholism. One man is a diabetic alcoholic who has had two major surgeries back to back, first a heart by pass in order to get him in shape to have one cancerous kidney removed. HIs blood sugar has always been very erratic due to the way he eats. He smoked up until recently. Another is man who has folks in A.A. follow him around, over 20 years now. He had his kidney removed some years ago, knows about "low blood sugar", but doens't know about the most recent developments in medical treatment. He is also addicted to opiates and has had several other operations. He still smokes and thinks he needs chocolate to control his hypoglycemia. Then there is another one with around 6-7 years of A.A. His scores on the test for food allergies I gave him were twice that of cruicial, and, his diet is very high in animal fat, sugar, and ...........he recently had a bout of bleeding from the bowel. These men all refuse to consult a nutritionist and will continue to find doctors who don't believe in that sort of thing. And all of them need someone with a lot more than the Big Book to sit down with them and tell them what to eat and what to leave alone. Their sort of suicide is applauded by other alcoholics who don't know any better. EL> that the topic was the 12 Steps.....Step 1 in Jan., Step 2 in EL> Feb....etc., so they were just doing what has always been done I was taught by my oldtimers that no question from one alcoholic to another is stupid and should be given the courtesty of an answer. This is part of the traditions and the steps. To mandate that honest questions or comments cannot be addressed is to condemn someone to death or worse if those same questions are not answered. So, I will no longer post in that conference. I don't go to fundamental churches, either. --- QuickBBS 2.76a * Origin: Tacoma Recovery 206-589-3820 (1:138/240)