--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3V00014Date: 03/24/98 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:33am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: ??? JANE KELLEY was thinking about ??? and keyed into cyberspace: JK> MP> JK> ...the side effects of Ritalin include: depression, JK> MP> JK> nervousness, insomnia & headaches JK> MP> In very few cases, and most of these are ameliorated by dosage JK> MP> modifications. JK>Exactly what does that mean? MOre or less of the stuff? MPH is normally first prescribed in a low dose, with a gradual build up to a therapeutic level. This is called dosage titration. On occasion, the dose becomes slightly too high, and a lower level is required. It is not big deal, and only last a day or two, at worst. And, side effects on MPH are few and far between. JK> MP> JK> ...there is a natural alternative to managing ADD-ADHD JK> MP> None has ever been proven to work. JK>Ever hear of the Feingold Diet? A couple of mothers around here JK>swear by it. Gave a copy to the daughter with the child who has a JK>seizure disorder and got told that she doesn't have time to fix JK>special meals for one member of the family, that the school will not JK>honor a request for a special diet, etc., etc., etc. The Foolsgold Diet Cultist would want you to believe that their diet works. That way, they sell more junk information. First, the diet has been examined in carefully controlled clinical studies and has been found to be no more effective than placebo. IOW, it does not affect real ADHD. Second, the Foolsgold Cultists keep changing their literature to claim (i.e., lie) the percentage of kids that the diet is "effective" for. IOW, they keep changing their story. And we are not talking about a seizure disorder. JK>The mothers who swear by it were able to stay at home when their JK>children were younger. They also took away all sugars which my JK>daughter refuses to do in her home. Congrats to your daughter! She thinks for herself. JK>The Feingold regieme is based on getting rid of salycilates. The Foolsgold Cult is based on making money. JK> MP> All good ideas in general, but totally useless for treating JK>ADHD. JK>But possibly very useful in treating conditions that sometimes JK>resemble ADHD and are not. So, you concede that diet does not affect ADHD. About time. The Few. The Proud. The Chosen. markprobe@aol.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3V00015Date: 03/24/98 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:40am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Ritalin JANE KELLEY was thinking about Ritalin and keyed into cyberspace: JK> MP> JK> MP> The "stuff" you just downloaded should rot your hard JK> MP> JK> MP> drive. Alan Zametkin at the NIH (you do know what that JK> MP> JK> MP> is, don't you?) JK>Yup. And I also am very much aware that it has been guilty of JK>misinformtion in the past. I would ask you to prove that the National Institutes of Health have been "guilty of misinformation in the past", but I recognize that you cannot do so. So, I will not waste my time. There is another set of initials which JK>is more grounded in the physical end of mental ILLNESS and is much JK>more accurate. There are, I believe, a total of 4 initials in that JK>name, but since I don't have it in front of me, cannot say for JK>certainty. Yep, the NIMH, the National Institute of Mental Health, which is part of the National Institutes of Health. JK>I have also seen the publications from both outfits over the years. You saw the publications, but did you READ them? JK> MP> JK> MP> demonstrated underactivity in the area of the brain JK> MP> JK> MP> which control impulsivity nearly a decade ago. JK> MP> JK> MP> Recently, a team led by him foun that the same area is JK> MP> JK> MP>proportionately smaller in the ADHD brain. JK>So what? This sounds vaguely reminisent of studies done for other JK>conditions in the brain. What is the causation? Can it be affected JK>by anything other than drugs? And is it present in other diagnosed JK>conditions also? I see, so when presented with incontrovertible evidence that you were wrong, you try to slip out of it. The causation is probably genetic, since it is dealing with brain chemistry and structure. So far, nothing has been shown to affect it other than medications. No, the pattern was shown to be exclusively for ADHD. JK>We are in an era where vagueness just won't cut it any longer. When will you start practising what you preach? JK> MP> Do you even know what NIH is? Do you have the slightest idea how JK> MP> someone is appointed to the staff? JK>The entire system of "mental health" is a pyramid of insanity it JK>itself at times. And appointment by one idiot for another idiot JK>doesn't mean sicum if both idiots are coming from a premise that JK>doesn't hold water. I see, so when someone proves you are wrong, you call them idiots. Personally, if you called me an idiot, I would consider that to be an honor. JK> MP> Then visit this web site: JK> MP> http://nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.htm JK>That one was apparently shut down yesterday as I got a message that JK>it either wasn't on line or not responding on Sunday. I will try JK>again today and see what happens. I will also try finding it JK>through a web searcher. Funny, I got in on Sunday. Didn't see you there. BTW, the above URL is the correct one. JK> MP> This site will provide you with the current state of JK> MP> *scientific* knowledge of ADHD. You will see the PET scans in JK> MP> color. You will see Castellanos' work showing physiological JK> MP> difference in the ADHD brain. JK>Not if I cannot get it online, I won't. Of course you have to try. The Few. The Proud. The Chosen. markprobe@aol.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3V00016Date: 03/24/98 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:47am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Help! Ideas Needed. JANE KELLEY was thinking about Help! Ideas Needed. and keyed into cyberspace: JK> TK> -> home schooled or educated in private schools have a chance at JK> TK> -> ever TK> getting ahead. Only jail, or welfare. On the JK> TK> -> contrary. OUt of the percentage that doesn't do well at all JK> TK> -> in school, possibly because the public schools fail to teach JK> TK> -> them much of anything at all and bore them stiff, is a very JK> TK> high percentage that end up JK> TK> -> in our prison system. Their education has been lousy at JK> TK> best. JK>Who wrote the latter part of that? Me or you? Your mail reader JK>leaves a lot to be desired at times. First you argued with yourself, then you disagreed with yourself. Now you do not even know what you are typing. JK>conferences. I have always wondered why I could do millions of JK>dollars of business on the phone with people I never met face to JK>face yet could not have any kind of intelligent conversation with JK>any teacher over the phone. Perhaps because they saw through you? The Few. The Proud. The Chosen. markprobe@aol.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3V00017Date: 03/24/98 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:52am \/To: SHARON PRICE (Read 1 times) Subj: Ritalin SHARON PRICE was thinking about Ritalin and keyed into cyberspace: SP>I've been watching Jane "dominate" the conference for quite a while SP>now. Jane, I think it's unconscionable the way you try to persuade SP>parents to not give their kids ritalin when they need it. Yes, the SP>school did put pressure on me and I resisted for awhile, but that SP>doesn't change the fact that he has ADHD and he needs the Ritalin to SP>be able to be successful in the classroom. BTW, the Ritalin is SP>prescribed by a very competent psychiatrist, not a GP. Ritalin SP>wasn't a magic wand for him though. He was continuing to have SP>problems getting along with his peers. Then the diagnoses was made SP>that he has Asperger's Syndrome, which is a "high functioning" form SP>of autism. This seems to be hereditary. I also have a 21 year old SP>autistic son and I have also been diagnosed with asperger's syndrome. SP>Now my son also takes Risperdal which is helping. My point is: if I SP>had listened to YOU, Jane, my would be labeled as a serious trouble SP>maker and probably viewed as psychotic by the school. His SP>neurological problem would have never been recongnised. He wouldn't SP>get the help he needs and would probably eventually drop out of high SP>school and end up in jail. And yes, Jane, I'm sure there are many SP>kids that the teachers just don't want to mess with and push the SP>parents put them on Ritalin. On the other hand, most of the teachers SP>seem not to want to believe that ADHD is a real disorder. It's very SP>paradoxical. Jane, you're doing the parents in this conference no SP>favor. If it were up to me, you wouldn't be allowed to post in here. Good morning Sharon: Yes, Jane is a real "winner". However, we keep her around for one important reason. We use her as a bad example. Jane's postings are so absurd that she actually can cause someone who was scared off medicating to re-think their position. For those who do not re-think their position after reading Jane-isms, there is no hope. They have their prejudices and will not change until something drastic wakes them up. I feel sorry for the kids, but there is little that can be done. BTW, you certainly do sound like a caring mom who is doing the best for her kids. The Few. The Proud. The Chosen. markprobe@aol.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3V00018Date: 03/24/98 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:58pm \/To: VALERIE JOHNSON (Read 1 times) Subj: Ritalin VALERIE JOHNSON was thinking about Ritalin and keyed into cyberspace: VJ>I have adhd and ritalin didnt work so he shouldn't have been put on VJ>ritalin he should have been put on catipras page or the pill VJ>I agree with you on that Ritalin is effective in approximately 70% of the cases. The other meds bring that number up to 95%. The Few. The Proud. The Chosen. markprobe@aol.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3V00019Date: 03/25/98 From: SHARON PRICE Time: 01:53pm \/To: VALERIE JOHNSON (Read 1 times) Subj: Ritalin Hi Valerie I can't say, since I have no knowledge of catipras page or "the pill". My son now takes adderall, which works like Ritalin, but without the side effects he was experiencing. (lost of appetite) But since my son is ADHD *and* has Asperger's Syndrome, the Ritalin didn't prevent his arguementativeness (I hope I spelled that right, my Franklin Spelling Ace is out of batteries and I'm too lazy to look up the work:) I wish there were a message area for Asperger's Syndrome, too. I think it may be more common than people know, because it usually goes undiagnosed....but that is not for this echo..*sigh* But, a child with ADD or ADHD needs Ritalin, Adderall, or something, otherwise he may not be successful in school and that would carry over into his adult life. Don't let people like Jane Kelley deprive your child of being the best he can be because she has an agenda. Don't listen to her sophistry. I suspect she is either a scientologist, or influenced by a self proclaimed expert on ADD and Ritalin that is a scientologist. --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/5 * Origin: * }{ead Games * 765-642-4312 * Anderson IN * (1:2255/90) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3W00000Date: 03/26/98 From: MICHAEL CURRY Time: 08:56am \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 0 times) Subj: Ritalin -> Yes, Jane is a real "winner". However, we keep her around for one mportant -> reason. -> -> We use her as a bad example. -> -> Jane's postings are so absurd that she actually can cause someone who was -> scared off medicating to re-think their position. For those who do not -> re-think their position after reading Jane-isms, there is no hope. They have -> their prejudices and will not change until something drastic wakes them p. -> I feel sorry for the kids, but there is little that can be done. Hi Mark, I've been lurking here on and off for several years. Amazing Janes position hasn't shifted one degree despite being bombarded with so much factual information. Early on in the 1st grade, it was suggested by my sons teacher, he should be checked out for ADD. That is when I first started lurking here, looking for info. Reading Jane's posts about other possable causes for my son's "condition" caused me to take a slow cautious approach. My wife and I tried several different avenues of treatment. All with negative results. In the mean time, our son suffered. Only very recently, three years later, have we started with MPH. So far, it appears to be working. I wish I never heard of Jane Kelly. =Mike ps: thankyou and all the other opened minded positive people that post here and keep Jane in check. --- PCBoard (R) v15.4 (OS/2) 5 Beta * Origin: Straight at ya! -=Southend BBS=- (1:267/128) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3W00001Date: 03/26/98 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 12:58am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: ??? Jane Kelley (On 20 Mar 98) said this..? to John Pummill JP> JK> The masses today get on the net JP> I suggest you check your facts. The "masses" still do not own a JP> personal computer and are not on the internet. JK> Some of them join national organizations such as Grandparents and JK> Parents Against Ritalin, Inc. or GOAR. As usual you do not respond but choose to go off on another tangent.. JK> Their website gives (800) 995-2010 for JK> information and can be found at: http://www.chesapeake.net/vparker/ JK> And, they state in their webpage: JK> ...approximately two million children in the US are on Ritalin JK> ...the side effects of Ritalin include: depression, nervousness, JK> insomnia & headaches These are not statements from GOAR. The site is merely paraphrasing and putting their own spin on well known information in a transparent and not very effective attempt to persuade against the use of MPH. JK> ...there is a natural alternative to managing ADD-ADHD No place on the site is this natural alternative named. JK> They are into sugar-free cookbooks, updates on nutrition, and natural JK> alternatives to ADD-ADHD. They can be 'into' anything that pleases them. The site contains no useful or authoritative information. I found it interesting that there is a plea for tax free "DONATIONS". For any unspecified amount they will send you information on sugar free cookbooks, nutrition updates and the unnamed natural alternatives. There is no mention of what statute they have been granted a non-profit tax exempt status under. I did e-mail vparker pointing out this lack of information and requesting that it be provided. I'm not, however, going to hold my breath waiting for a response. I did download the donation pitch and will forward it to the local IRS office with a request for information re GOAR's non-profit status. I will be happy to share any IRS reply with you Jane, which ever way it goes. --- PPoint 2.03 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/100.8) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3W00002Date: 03/26/98 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 06:34am \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Ritalin BM> I've not been active here for a week or so. Other more interesting BM> things to do. Seems like you haven't changed your tune by as much BM> as a note. You haven't found my comments on the article I downloaded from your reference in the National Institute of Mental Health. Get back to me after you do. As far as drugs are concerned, and their effects on humans, I refer you to "Alcohol Health & Research World" which has articles in it that go into such things as "Alcohol-Related Cognitive Impariments: An Overview of How Alcoholism May Affect the Workings of the Brain" or "Alcohol-Related Thiamine Deficiency: Impace on Cognitive and Memory Functioning, "Cognitive Impairment in Children of Alcoholics", etc., etc. etc. They can be found by looking at the drug and alcohol side of nih. or niaaa. I learned that Mark Keller has just died but that Marc Schuckit, M.D., the Professor of Psychiatry at UCSD School of Medicine and Director of the Alcohol Research Center in San Diego is still very much alive. His lecture, "A Prospective Study of Genetic and Enviornmental Influences in Alcoholism: Working Toward Prevention" was given back in Bethesda as part of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. I would far rather read what he has to say on this supposed new disease we call ADD or ADHD than the authors you refer. I know that Schuckit's background includes many studies on drug addicts and alcoholics and that he does have the ability to recognize one when he encounters it. Cannot say the same for whoever put together the material you advocated I read. Whenever drugs such as alcohol and cocaine are given as a cause of something, to leave out of all history taking and consideration is to invalidate all of the work done. And that is exactly what I think of it.....invalid. Most schools will not know the drug habits of the parents of the children they have in their care. They will not know if some mother used cocaine or drank during her pregnancy and then quit later on. And we have not been given this information by DSHD when my daughter adopted the two children she has. This is criminal. To leave out such vital information to anyone caring for youngsters in this day and age cripples them in providing proper health care. Anyone who is likely to come into contact with genetic alcoholics and drug abusers should have to take enough courses in chemical dependency to be able to spot them or should never have a state license to do anything at all around them except sweep the floor and clean out toilets! --- * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: F3W00003Date: 03/26/98 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 06:52am \/To: KALERA ASHLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Ritalin and NIMH KA> JK> Found article and I quote: "Attention lapses caused by petit mal KA> seizures KA> JK> be confused with ADHD". Exactly what I have been complaining about. KA> You've been copmplaining about NIMH's caution not to confuse ADHD KA> with a completely different condition? No, I have been complaining about the tendency of folks such as yourself to act like profane experts on all kinds of "mental" conditions without the knowledge of the physical causes of behavior. In short, the courses in anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, chemistry, and a hord of other subjects that medical and nursing folks study. And that drug and alcohol counelors will also study....the same exact ones that are given to student nurses these days. And that those who do have a medical background would not be guilty of trying to persuade a parent of a child with a seizure disorder that any drug, other than that for the seizure condition itself, would fix deviant behavior. In fact, the NIMH article stated that some behavior problems were to be expected with children who had petit mal seizures. KA> Mark Probert has never denied that restricted diet helps people KA> with food allergies. He, and other people such as myself, deny that KA> restricted diet helps people with ADHD. He has denied that anyone diagnosed with ADHD could be helped with a remedial diet. I insist that many are so diagnosed who actually do not have this problem. And who should be seen by someone with a medical background to find out what might be going on. KA> JK> Also found a statement that ADHD is linked to both the use of lcohol KA> and o KA> JK> cocaine during pregnancy. As this is usually by addicts, as a KA> chemical KA> JK> dependency counselor, I object vigorously to the prescription of any KA> drug f KA> JK> any human by anyone unless addiction in the immediate family is KA> factored in KA> JK> the history! It is all too evident to me that this is not being done. KA> I agree that many doctors are negligent in researching personal KA> and family background when prescribing medications. However, KA> there have been no known incidents of addiction resulting from KA> Ritalin use in the treatment of ADHD. KNOWN BY WHOM? I know one chemical dependency counselor who would disagree with your statement. Also so does the doctor whose article I downloaded, Peter Briggs, I think. I am frankly too lazy at this time of the morning to go dig it out of file. I downloaded some 20 pages when I entered "Ritalin" in a search engine, and his was the largest. Just because you are unaware of something, and Mark Probert doesn't know it either, doesn't mean it isn't. I remember when Valium and Librium were the wonder drugs of choice. Today it is Ritalin and Prozac. And our pharmaceutical industry is busy trying to develop new ways to impact the receptor sites in the brain instead of teaching mothers how to feed themselves properly during pregnancy and their children after they are born. ARE YOU AWARE THAT IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO REVERSE SOME MINOR BIRTH DEFECTS BY REMEDIAL DIET IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF A CHILD"S LIFE? Have you ever contacted the Down Syndrome folks to find out what they are doing with remedial diets? KA> Yes. This is obvious and Mark and myself have repeated the above KA> numerous times. YOU were the one who was claiming that teachers KA> and other school staff could diagnose and treat ADHD. They cannot KA> and have never been able to do so. They do so all the time without permission or a state license. So why cannot they be brought to trial for practicing medicine without a license? I saw on TV where someone who was much more qualified, who had gone all the way through the steps necessary to become a doctor and who had worked in an ER was finally caught. He will get a 10 year sentence. What is the proper sentence for some idiot school teacher and school counselor who cannot accept several qualified statements that a child has petit mal epilepsy and still want to perform some insane testing on same child? Qualified reports,that is, from not only the pediatrician but pediatric neurologist and other experts. KA> JK> And I found this: "Another debate is whether Ritalin and other KA> stimulant KA> JK> drugs are prescribed unnecessarily for too many children.....critics KA> argue KA> JK> that many children who do not have a true attention disorder are KA> medicated KA> JK> a way to control their disruptive behaviors." KA> I suggest that you do, indeed, have a problem with reading KA> comprehension. The article which you quote above is clearly stating KA> that the use opf stimulants has critics... which include yourself. That implies many more people besides me who are involved in being critical since I have never contacted those who wrote it. It also implies a matter of concern since the writer brought it up. So who are these other critics and why are they concerned? Have they spotted the same things I have, do they wonder if this is another genetic mutation of alcoholism and drug abuse that should not be treated with more drugs? What percentage of the kids who are diagnosed ADD or ADHD come from parents who have abused drugs? Do you know and give a damn that these children may be irreparably harmed by the experimentation of idiots? To anyone who is reading this who knows that they have a history of drug abuse, or that there is alcoholism or drug abuse in the immediate ancestry, grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, of any child who is hyperactive, I urge you to find someone qualified to do a workup on that same child which will include investigation of all possible physical causes of the behavior BEFORE THAT CHILD IS PLACED ON ANY DRUG!!!! --- * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255)