--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBG00004Date: 07/11/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 06:18pm \/To: ANDREW GRILLET (Read 0 times) Subj: Punishment ANDREW GRILLET was thinking about Punishment and keyed into cyberspace: AG> BM> Not corporal punishment as I understand the term nor as, I AG> BM> think, it is understood by most USAmericans. I coach little AG> BM> league (baseball), after what _I_ consider to be a suitable AG> BM> period of instruction, boys who still insist on doing it _their_ AG> BM> way do pushups and run laps. AG>This IS corporal punishment. Nope. Only privates get to do that. The bad corporals get to run with the bad privates, but they have to count cadence. ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBH00000Date: 07/11/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 07:03pm \/To: ANDREW GRILLET (Read 0 times) Subj: Punishment Andrew Grillet (On 09 Jul 97) was muttering to Bob Moylan BM> Precisely - physical punishment that if inflicted on an adult would BM> constitute assault with battery. AG> I don't use AA cells for this myself :-) Yea...the AAA's are the way to go ... AG> It appears that some people cannot tell the difference between a slap AG> on the wrist and various activities involving whips and leather. AG> Rumour has it that many of them are conservative MPs. If memory serves {and it doesn't always )-:} your conservative party has had more than it's share of "unusual" individuals... (-8 BM> after what _I_ consider to be a suitable period of instruction, boys BM> who still insist on doing it _their_ way do pushups and run laps. AG> This IS corporal punishment. I disagree...the boys have the option to refuse, I, in turn, have the option to "boot" them off the team. AG> I have been a parent for 26 years, and a grandparent for six years. My oldest turns 34 this month ... and the middle one (a girl) will make me a first time grandparent in November .... I think I could have waited a while longer ... time marches on and all that... AG> It is the parent who believes that a slap on the wrist and a AG> boot in the face are the same thing that is more likely to apply the AG> boot. I would imagine that day to day life in the UK is as stressful for many as it is here, or any other "Western" nation, some people just can't cope with it and take it out on their children and/or spouse. BM> IMNSHO far preferable to an immediate "smack" any place on the BM> kid's body. AG> I and many others choose to disagree. On some occasions it may be AG> preferable , on others it may not. Understand...that is a topic guaranteed to generate heated discussion on both sides of the issue. AG> We are in the middle of an intense political row in which the AG> teachers' unions are vigorously opposing the idea that teachers be AG> sacked just because they are incompetent. Understand how that goes too, we have two major teacher unions here. Both are on record as being opposed to retention of incompetent teachers but then expend huge amounts of resources to block their dismissal. AG> For making a rude face behind teacher's back to another kid in AG> primary school? For dropping a pencil by accident? For passing a note? AG> For being deliberately accused of any of the above by a another AG> trouble-making pupil? No..most, not all, but most elementary (primary) teachers understand that those things are going to happen and handle it on a daily basis. I was referring to the older kids, say from 14 on up. Students here generally are in school through their 18th birthday - mandatory through age 16 - there are enough who don't care, who are disruptive, insolent etc to make it a problem that needs to be addressed much more firmly that is currently being done. AG> The problem is provision of alternative shools. No one wants to fund AG> them, run them, or have them located near where they live. Locally, (not universal across the US) the city I live in and the surrounding ones have alternative programs - funding built into the annual budget. AG> Incidentally I was appointed as a school govenor today - unopposed AG> - two vacancies, only one candidate. Okay are congratulations or sympathetic noises in order? What is a "school govenor"? Above, below, in between a headmaster or what? ... Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers. --- PPoint 2.03 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBH00001Date: 07/12/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 12:35am \/To: STEVEN GODBE (Read 0 times) Subj: books Steven Godbe (On 08 Jul 97) was overheard pontificating to MARK PROBERT MP> I wonder what you real agenda is. I read "Dr. Dot's" note and also responded to "Dr. Dot" questioning the way she presented herself and what she had to say before I read Mark's response. Those of us who live with ADHD/ADD day in and day out, either as parents of or those who have ADHD/ADD, have seen and heard all manner of nonsense from all manner of people. Many of those have presented themselves as a doctor of this or that with the mistaken belief that the title cloaks them in a mantle of authority and lesser folk are somehow required to take what they say as something akin to holy writ. While typing my response I was thinking the same thing that Mark wrote in his response. SG> She's a very classy lady, a person I'm glad to claim as a friend, SG> a person generous of herself and her education and experience to a SG> fault, None of which lends any credibility to one who touts Breggin as an authority. SG> and one I've not known to be anything less than praise-worthy. That's all well and good but she is a total unknown to me, Mark, and at least one other who responded to her. SG> Mark, you really ought to stop and smell the roses sometime, and you SG> ought to work very hard on that huge chip on your shoulders while SG> you're at it. You obviously don't know from where he speaks. Your comment above is nothing less than a personal attack...what's the reason for that? SG> You know, a response like yours validates much of what she had to say, The content of your post similarly invalidates all of what she had to say. Can the "doc" not speak for herself? SG> although I by no means would have read her posting to be directed SG> at any person in particular. It was deliberately non-specific out of SG> consideration for the feelings of echo participants. I didn't take it as directed at any specific individual, and while I hesitate to speak for Mark (he is more than capable of doing so for himself) I don't consider that his response was an attack on her. I'm curious to know how YOU are so much aware of what the good doctor was thinking and what she was taking into consideration. SG> Why do you suppose you chose to interpret it as a personal attack SG> and part of some personal 'agenda' instead of what it was, See above re "personal attack". We've seen many come into this and similar echos/newsgroups with personal agendas ... once burned twice shy... SG> a heart-felt note of sympathy for those she felt were in harm's SG> way, I personally don't think that anyone who comes into this echo and throws Breggin's name out, as if he were the end word on ADHD/ADD, has much consideration or sympathy for the participants. SG> and a brief recommended reading list for any who might care for SG> one? Recommended reading lists are always welcome... SG> You, Mr. Probert, have given new validity to the cliche', "no good SG> deed goes unpunished." You are saying then that it's quite alright for "Dr. Dot" to advance her beliefs and thinking on an issue but that she shouldn't be questioned on them? Not in this echo Mr. Godbe .... everything is questioned especially when a known anti-medication 'there's no such thing as ADHD' _authority_ is mentioned. ... Your Sacred cow is my next Big Mac! --- PPoint 2.03 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBH00002Date: 07/12/97 From: BETH SMITH Time: 07:30am \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Books Bob thanks i will ask the sysop about the netmail or i will go ahead and email you. will talk to you soon beth --- MsgToss 2.0c * Origin: Jim's Place RBBS - Jacksonville, FL USA (1:112/53) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBI00000Date: 07/13/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:02pm \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 0 times) Subj: books BOB MOYLAN was thinking about books and keyed into cyberspace: BM>Steven Godbe (On 08 Jul 97) was overheard pontificating to MARK BM>PROBERT BM> The content of your post similarly invalidates all of what she had BM>to say. Can the "doc" not speak for herself? This IS the real issue. Why is Mr. Godbe posting in her defense? Is she incapable of engaging in a dialogue? BM> SG> although I by no means would have read her posting to be BM> SG> directed at any person in particular. It was deliberately BM> SG> non-specific out of consideration for the feelings of echo BM> SG> participants. BM> I didn't take it as directed at any specific individual, and while I BM> hesitate to speak for Mark (he is more than capable of doing so for BM> himself) I don't consider that his response was an attack on her. BM> I'm curious to know how YOU are so much aware of what the good BM>doctor was thinking and what she was taking into consideration. Bob, do you smell a conspiracy here? BM> SG> Why do you suppose you chose to interpret it as a personal BM> SG> attack and part of some personal 'agenda' instead of what it BM> SG> was, BM> See above re "personal attack". We've seen many come into this and BM> similar echos/newsgroups with personal agendas ... once burned twice BM> shy... BM> SG> a heart-felt note of sympathy for those she felt were in harm's BM> SG> way, BM> I personally don't think that anyone who comes into this echo and BM> throws Breggin's name out, as if he were the end word on ADHD/ADD, BM> has much consideration or sympathy for the participants. I would love to know what form of "harm's way" Mr. Godbe is referring to. Does he mean relevant treatment including psychopharmacology? Does he think that that is a harm? Inquiring minds want to know. BM> SG> and a brief recommended reading list for any who might care for BM> SG> one? BM> Recommended reading lists are always welcome... BM> SG> You, Mr. Probert, have given new validity to the cliche', "no BM> SG> good deed goes unpunished." BM> You are saying then that it's quite alright for "Dr. Dot" to advance BM> her beliefs and thinking on an issue but that she shouldn't be BM> questioned on them? BM> Not in this echo Mr. Godbe .... everything is questioned especially BM> when a known anti-medication 'there's no such thing as ADHD' BM> _authority_ is mentioned. Please don't use "authority" to refer to Breggin. I smell scientology, or a Phyllis Schlafley clone. ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBI00001Date: 07/13/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:06pm \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Punishment BOB MOYLAN was thinking about Punishment and keyed into cyberspace: BM> AG> The problem is provision of alternative shools. No one wants to BM> AG> fund them, run them, or have them located near where they live. BM> Locally, (not universal across the US) the city I live in and the BM> surrounding ones have alternative programs - funding built into the BM> annual budget. My wife teaches in an evening alternative high school. She had twelve seniors, and twelve graduates. First time that happened in the history of the program. BM> AG> Incidentally I was appointed as a school govenor today - BM> AG> unopposed - two vacancies, only one candidate. BM> Okay are congratulations or sympathetic noises in order? BM> What is a "school govenor"? Above, below, in between a headmaster BM>or what? If a "school governor" is what I think it is, akin to a school district trustee, then copious amounts of sympathy are in order. I did it for three years. While the job is best one in the world, it is also the most thankless one. And the pay stinks. ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBJ00000Date: 07/12/97 From: STEVEN GODBE Time: 02:55pm \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 0 times) Subj: books Hello MARK! 11 Jul 97 18:00, MARK PROBERT wrote to STEVEN GODBE: MP> I did not take it personally. How come you are responding and not MP> "Dr. Dot". I'm responding because I choose to, because *I* was offended by your remarks, because I like Dr. Dot a lot, because I think I know her well enough to realize she wouldn't bother defending herself to you, because I regularly read this message base and sometimes post, because I've been an activist for ADD/ADHD and a participant for years but still disagree with some of YOUR positions while agreeing with some of Dr. Dot's and even Peter Breggin's from time to time, because it's my right and my obligation to speak my mind when it may impact serious social issues, and because of many more reasons than this but for which I don't feel a particular need to type to you in an attempt to assuage your paranoia. MP> I have no chip. I do see a red flag when someone recommends Peter MP> Breggin to anyone with ADHD. You see a red flag on many issues and upon statements from many people, Mark. MP> He denies its existence, and is MP> opposed to the most effective treatment modalities. Breggin, from what *I* have read of his work, is a defender of patients from intrusive psychiatric practice which is not necessarily based so much upon strong science as it is upon institutionalized common practice and convenience. He's an outspoken watchdog on the pharmacological treatment and 'exclusively biological-based treatment' of mental illnesses. He's done some very good things, and his main concern with ADD/ADHD is that he feels it's overdiagnosed, that too frequently when it is, there's often an over-reliance upon drug treatment to the exclusion of all others, that often children are over-medicated both in dose and with poly-pharmacy, and he feels it's a crime that these medications have been prescribed so heavily to adolescents and children when there's little research having been done on the effects of long- term use on the brain, and NO research having been done upon the effects upon the GROWING brain. I think there's a lot to think about in what he writes, and there's no question that the man is a true hero to thousands, and a man respected widely enough to be called as an expert witness before the US Congress. Thousands of people owe their higher intellectual function to the man. Thousands more owe their memory to him. You discount his work to easily. MP> So, when she posted exactly that, I knew one of two things MP> regarding her knowledge of ADHD: MP> 1. She does not know what Breggin stands for. MP> 2. She does know what Breggin stands for. On the contrary, from what you have written of Breggin, I'd never have noticed that he's primarily a critic of a single school of mental health providing, and that his arguments about the ADD/ADHD 'epidemic' were mostly ideological and professional constructive criticisms. MP> If she fits number one, then she is posting in an uninformed MP> manner. If she fits number two, then she has an agenda that she MP> is not divulging. MP> I have been deluged in the past nine years with people who fit 1) MP> or 2). Some people refer to such an over-simplification of people into an 'us vs. them' situation with the self as the 'us' side to be an example of paranoiac behavior. Others would call it either intellectual dishonesty, self-deception, or an ego-defense. I think it's more impolite and needlessly confrontational than anything else. MP> Now, if you want to impress me, explain to me why you, and not MP> "Dr. Dot" is responding. Posting a message and then not sticking MP> around to engage in dialogue is trolling. I feel no need to impress you. I feel it unlikely to be able to communicate successfully with you even, given some of the exchanges with you I've seen over the past while in this echo. I disagree with you, and that's enough to make communication with you dicey at best. BTW, your assessment of a 'trolling' motivation relies upon the assumption that someone is 'out to get you', and is not a valid assumption. It's just the only one you're prepared to accept. That means that YOU are responsible for your own upset, but are seeking to place the blame for it upon another. That's another form of intellectual dishonesty at best, a symptomatic indicator at worst. MP> Much of the anti-pharmacotherapy propaganda of the Cult of MP> Scientology is deliberately non-specific. They support Breggin. One cannot judge a thought by selectively taking exception to some of its adherents. One imagines that Hitler might have self-identified himself as a Lutheran, but should the Lutheran church be vilified for this reason? More you against the world, Mark? MP> Explain what you mean "in harm's way". I am NOT going to indulge your needs in this and I refuse to speculate upon what Dr. Dot was thinking on this issue. I probably should have refused to be drawn into the discussion as well, but I have this problem with doing that sometimes. Doubtless, several decades of mental health care providing have better prepared Dr. Dot. MP> Recommending Breggin in an ADHD conference is the intellectual MP> equivalent of the old sales swindle of "Bait and Switch". I marvel at the degree of arrogance it would take to make such a statement. MP> Specifically explain how it was a good deed. I do not see any. No, I guess you wouldn't, because you choose not to, not entirely without precedent. MP> You answering for her gives a whole new depth of meaning to MP> Shakespeare statements. "There is something rotten in the state MP> of Denmark". I change my mind. I should have known better than to attempt reason. I certainly should have known better than to attempt an appeal to your sense of civility. Steven --- GoldED/2 2.42.G0214 * Origin: The Round Table, BBS of Gulf Coast Mensa, 713-922-1393 (1:106/1393) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBJ00001Date: 07/12/97 From: STEVEN GODBE Time: 03:00pm \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 0 times) Subj: books Hello Bob! 12 Jul 97 00:35, Bob Moylan wrote to Steven Godbe: BM> Steven Godbe (On 08 Jul 97) was overheard pontificating to MARK BM> PROBERT MP>> I wonder what you real agenda is. BM> Those of us who live with ADHD/ADD BM> day in and day out, either as parents of or those who have BM> ADHD/ADD, have seen and heard all manner of nonsense from all BM> manner of people. What makes you think I don't have some experience in this myself? I've been diagnosed with ADD. My wife has also. It runs in my family and both my brother and I have had to deal with all manner of learning disabilities all our lives, complete with the attitude barriers that come with it. BTW, Bob, later in your note you're going to accuse me of a personal attack. You quoted Mark's sentence above. Don't you think that accusing a perfect stranger of prosecuting a personal agenda is a personal attack? THAT is what prompted my response. This echo's propensity to behave this way with alternate viewpoints is the pattern which has me pursuing it this far when I've other ways to spend a Saturday. I care about the mission of the echo and the ADD/ADHD community. I feel it's too important to allow unmentioned what I feel to be an irresponsible narrowing of the 'allowable' areas of discussion. I feel even more strongly about the need to observe the rules of common courtesy in discussions of such charged issues, especially if one wishes to enlarge participation and to reinforce estimations of credibility. BM> Many of those have presented themselves as a BM> doctor of this or that with the mistaken belief that the title BM> cloaks them in a mantle of authority and lesser folk are somehow BM> required to take what they say as something akin to holy writ. BM> While typing my response I was thinking the same thing that Mark BM> wrote in his response. I can't help you with your difficulty knowing which authority to give credence to. It's a problem of the information age. What most distressed me was the complete lack of civility and the rush to oppositional and confrontational stance. BM> None of which lends any credibility to one who touts Breggin as BM> an authority. Then I'm afraid that I'll have no credibility with you either. I've read some of Breggin's writings, and I see his goals differently from you. BM> That's all well and good but she is a total unknown to me, Mark, BM> and at least one other who responded to her. Which is not an excuse for poor behavior, Bob. BM> You obviously don't know from where he speaks. Your comment BM> above is nothing less than a personal attack...what's the reason BM> for that? Cut my feed to the echo, cut access to all the people who use my bbs to access the ADHD echo. Report my conduct to Karen Kasper of our regional ADHD group. It still won't explain how a constructive criticism became a personal attack, and it won't explain his pattern of behavior which prompted my remark. Disagreement in a field of inquiry for which there is so much room for argument and for which there is NOT any unified professional position statement is NOT a personal attack in and of itself and it's not meritous of one either. I think his response to Dr. Dot was on the order of a personal attack, and that his response to me was needlessly and agressively confrontational, too. BM> The content of your post similarly invalidates all of what she BM> had to say. Can the "doc" not speak for herself? You and he seem to feel that it's not appropriate for another participant to speak their mind when they feel a criticism is due. Whether or not she chooses to answer is immaterial. I chose to do so because I thought it appropriate and timely. That's all that matters and it has ZERO bearing upon what she had to say. It's a SEPARATE ISSUE. BM> See above re "personal attack". We've seen many come into this BM> and similar echos/newsgroups with personal agendas ... once BM> burned twice shy... That's not an excuse for poor behavior. They misbehaved and jumped off the cuff so YOU should be allowed special privilege to ignore common courtesy also? I'm sorry, that's not a way to maintain an environment suitable for good society. Sitting quietly while it happens is not a good choice of response either. BM> I personally don't think that anyone who comes into this echo BM> and throws Breggin's name out, as if he were the end word on BM> ADHD/ADD, has much consideration or sympathy for the BM> participants. There is room for disagreement and neither you or Mark seem terribly interested in hearing a voice of disagreement, or even in wanting to acknowledge the fact that she mentioned other good source material. Didn't you earlier question my ability to know 'what the good Dr. was thinking'? I think I know her loads better than you do, know of her reputation much better than you do, and so I think that you might do well to take your own advice. BM> Recommended reading lists are always welcome... ...unless you disagree with a source listed upon it? BM> You are saying then that it's quite alright for "Dr. Dot" to BM> advance her beliefs and thinking on an issue but that she BM> shouldn't be questioned on them? She as much as said in her note she'd not be available for that, but left a reference list. I think that's an acceptable behavior, yes. I think it's acceptable to question someone, but I think that there is a burden of mutual respect and courtesy which should be observed, and that Mark chooses regularly to ignore that burden. It's a separate issue entirely to me. It just so happens that I think many of Breggin's criticisms are valid ones. His record as an advocate for the mentally ill is certainly nothing to vilify him over, but is rather a strong reason to accord at least some respect to him and his arguments. Steven --- GoldED/2 2.42.G0214 * Origin: The Round Table, BBS of Gulf Coast Mensa, 713-922-1393 (1:106/1393) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBK00000Date: 07/15/97 From: KETIRA Time: 11:03pm \/To: REGINA FINAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Jeremy -=> Regina Finan said *this*? RF> Yes, we did too, only not coffee, we bought a safe. My Jeremy got RF> caught red handed stealing money from me. Not pocket change either. [major snip] You have an address where I can send you email? I'd love to talk to you about Jeremy and those voices. (I'd do it here, but some*one* on here would never take me seriously afterwards, and I'd like to keep the Echo as civil as possible.) MP> Keep the faith. Find something that he likes. Fortunately, Josh likes MP> volunteering. So he does a lot of it. Now to get him to volunteer to MP> clean his room. RF> Jeremy can never finish the job. I know *exactly* how he is....... for I'm similar. I either don't finish the job (something distracts me --usually a book or magazine :) .... or I finish the job, but in a week or two it's back to square one. :/ I'm *still* trying to figure out why I do this...... Blessings, Ketira If you have Internet email, email me at ketira@aol.com ... Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: Paradise Online {423}429-4623 0r 429-2221 (1:3615/82) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: EBL00000Date: 07/14/97 From: ANDREW GRILLET Time: 08:23pm \/To: JERRY SCHWARTZ (Read 0 times) Subj: Punishment Hi Jerry, -=> On 11 Jul 97 20:55:51 Jerry Schwartz said to Andrew Grillet <=- AG> We are in the middle of an intense political row in which the teachers' AG> unions are vigorously opposing the idea that teachers be sacked just AG> because they are incompetent. JS> Same here, as it happens. The teachers' side of it is that it would JS> be too easy for administrators to weed out innovators and dissenters - JS> a valid point, from what I've seen. There must be some way to measure whether teachers are under performing. I just got a report form my son's school. It shows that where kids are assessed by tests or exams they perform BETTER that the teacher's assessment. My University just sent me several documents explaining that the reverse was normally the case. I would say that was good evidence for the teacher's having low expectation of the kids. (This is real inner-city) Andrew ... What if there were no hypothetical situations? --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: Me/2 (2:254/259)