--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1B00003Date: 01/05/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 05:52pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Adderall Jane Kelley On (04 Jan 97) was overheard to say to Bob Moylan BM> Prozac is not the medication of choice for treatment of bipolar JK> The reason why it is not a treatment of choice for bipolar individuals JK> is that there have been too many lousy results from doing just that. Well no duh. Then you must have at least two incompetent docs in your little corner of the world since you brought up the subject of the two individuals on prozac who you "drove" over the edge in your little wagon. JK> The goal is to relieve depression, not to do anything else. In the JK> case of the bipolar, this becomes intolerable at times. The lithium JK> takes the high down and brings the depressed cycles up. At times, JK> the bipolar can become suicidal in the lows. That is when another JK> medication is usually prescribed. Another disorder you pontificate on without knowing much about it. JK> However, eating tryptoophan and elevating serotonin levels by JK> nutritional methods will work just as well and not elevate them JK> temporarily to the point where the individual acts like a JK> schizophrenic for a brief period of time. Second time I've seen you advocating for tryptophan. Do you have any idea dear, why L-tryptophan was taken off the market by the FDA roughly 10 years ago? No... I didn't think so. JK> It would be very useful for you to have a long discussion on that JK> subject with either a nurse who works in a detox unit, a doctor who is JK> a specialist in addictions, or a pharmacist. There is a danger in JK> doing this that cannot be overemphasized. Quitting abruptly will put JK> someone in danger in certain instances. And any blanket statement JK> such as yours above indicates a total and complete lack of any real JK> knowledge in this subject. I'd agree IF I'd been taking it for weeks or months. If I had a really adverse reaction after a couple of days I'd stop taking it. Anyone who continues to take anything that exacerbates the condition it is supposed to be helping because their doc or a wanna be doc nurse type tells them to needs to be running in the opposite direction as fast as they can. I am reminded of the old Jane Curtin bit on, I think Saturday Night Live where there was a classic line delivered to her every episode. JK> Therefore, I see no use in trying to continue any further discussion JK> on the subject of chemical dependency or drug use with you. I haven't been attempting to have a discussion on the subj of chemical dependency with you. You have been interjecting your ill informed comments cloaked in the aura of a "nurse" who received her training some 30 years ago. You are so far out of touch it is frightening. I have the deepest sympathy and concern for anyone who is unfortunate enough to run across you in a so called professional capacity. ... Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain. --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1B00004Date: 01/05/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 05:59pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Sugar Jane Kelley On (04 Jan 97) was overheard to say to Bob Moylan BM> You admit your ignorance then regarding ADD/ADHD but still insist on JK> I've also posted information on ADHD obtained from NAMI, No you didn't. You posted your interpretation of a NAMI blurb about schizophrenia. JK> one journal for adolescent counselors, and the research from JK> Dr. Neher. No you have not. You have made several, hell, MANY, comments about what you say these sources have reported on. Not once have you given a citation or even the name of the journal. That is not posting information that is nothing more or less than hearsay. JK> I would think that is not ignorance and I am not admitting anything. It is not a demonstrable indication of knowledge of the subject either; I really do not expect you to admit to not knowing something. JK> There are so called experts in mental health and allied matters that I JK> don't believe, have never believed and will never believe. Got JK> permission to do that as a student nurse around 1951 by a doctor at JK> St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington, D.C. with a Vienese accent. Gee Jane I am impressed as all hell. Thirty-six years ago you were a student nurse in DC. There have been tremendous advances in mental health care since then, too bad you haven't bothered to stay current. Thirty-six years ago doctors barely acknowledged the existence of nurses let alone give them permission to do anything besides breathe. JK> He delighted in having the residents do case studies on someone who had JK> been a patient there for 20 or 30 years, then would rip apart what had JK> been said. His point was that when someone is misdiagnosed no proper JK> treatment is provided and the patient remains sick forever. Well this Viennese doctor was a horse's ass then if he knew he had patients who had been incarcerated for 20 or 30 years with a misdiagnosis and did nothing about it but use them to taunt residents. What's YOUR point in relating this ancient history? JK> The experts in MENTAL ILLNESS who have a background in hard science JK> and who are into brain chemistry, brain imagry, and the other modern JK> technical knowledge used for a definitive diagnosis have, on the other JK> hand, my complete and total respect. LEARN from them then. JK> Diagnosis begins with a proper history. That I have no argument with. JK> That takes time, more than the cursory exam that most folks get today JK> when they go to any doctor's office. What are you saying here? That every time I or one of mine goes to see a doc (and we have been seeing the same ones for a number of years) that he or she should take a complete history. Come on now. I've been referred to specialists for this and that over the years and not one of them needed to take a history...you know why Jane? Because my regular doc already provided all that information to them ahead of time. If some one presents with complaints of a common cold or the flu, that cursory exam you so denigrate addresses the presenting symptoms there's no need for a history going back 3 or 4 generations to see if some ancestor also MAY have had a cold or the flu. Your statements are too broad and sweeping and, as usual have nothing to to with ADD/ADHD. ... Cats remind us that not everything in Nature has a purpose. --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1B00005Date: 01/05/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 06:01pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: News From Nami Jane Kelley On (04 Jan 97) was overheard to say to Mark Probert JK> Do yourself and the offspring of those who read these posts a big JK> favor, call 1-800-849-9475 and ask for Dr. Terry Neher. Well Jane I just did that. His wife answered the phone! There really is a Terry Neher, now if he's a medical doctor or not I didn't get into. I got his spiel about becalm'd and he said that it was not originally intended as a treatment for ADHD - found out by, as he said, accident. Guess what Jane, he referred me to yet another 800 number (800-232-7563) told me to ask for "Al". The name of the outfit is National Neurologic Nutrition". Hummm, is there some pecuniary interest here...?? Supposedly Al will be more than happy to send me a 20 page or so pamphlet that describes their findings. Wow - 20 pages. I AM impressed....Neher told me that "Al" is not in today (Sunday) but will be tomorrow. You can bet I'm going to be talking to Al tomorrow. JK> He did the research and developed the remedial food supplement called JK> beCALM'd which works much better than Ritalin does for some kids with JK> ADHD. Not exactly what _he_ said but there's enough truth in it to make it sound good. ... I refuse to fight a duel of wits with an unarmed opponent! --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1B00006Date: 01/05/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 08:56pm \/To: JOHN PRATHER (Read 1 times) Subj: ADHD....76 JP> MK> Reminds me of back in the stone ages when people thought those JP> with MK> epilesy, were possessed.:) MK> Have a wonderful JP> Holiday...:) JP> When defining medical or mental disorders I fail to see the JP> difference between the failure of the endocrine function of the JP> brain and the failure of the pancreas or the thyroid gland. Or for JP> that matter the difference between a decreased flow of blood to the JP> heart and a decreased flow to the frontal lobe of the brain. Let's JP> face it, it is becoming more and more eviedent that the only JP> difference between a physical medical disorder and a mental disorder JP> is that the mental disorder takes place in the high order functions JP> of the brain. While you are aware of this, John, not everyone is as astute as we are. And that is the problem. There is a growing level of intentional ignorance and a heavy anti-science mentality in the US. Look at the conspiracy theory nut new-agers and their wild conspiracy ideas about the pharmaceutical companies. In the science newsgroups and echoes that I read, there is an infrequent message from some know-nothing about ending funding for pure scientific research, or putting an end to the space program, or something similar to that. There are genuinely malevolent people who know better, but have another agenda. * RM 1.31 * Eval Day 3 * ADHD--Always Doing His Duty --- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.2N * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1B00007Date: 01/05/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 09:01pm \/To: JEFF RICHTER (Read 1 times) Subj: ATTENTION/BEHAVIORAL DISO JR> I will check this out, thankyou. Planning a big trip to New Jersey JR> (With the kids of course). I think the family is ready to go for a JR> long drive across the country. I am in NY, where will you be??? * RM 1.31 * Eval Day 3 * RoboMail -- The ultimate QWK compatible message mana er. --- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.2N * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1C00000Date: 01/06/97 From: MARIE WEIDEMANN Time: 04:24pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Alcoholism MW> I understand your posts alright and I understand that you have a *real* MW> problem when it comes to accepting that drugs, when given under a ualifi MW> doctor and there is a complete back-up system to help if any problems re MW> incurred, can help a lot of these children. JK> And I say that in the case of children where there is a family history JK> of alcoholism, that the qualifications of the doctor who is treating JK> that child are very much at stake. Jane, there *is no* history of alcoholism....None...Neither of the grandparents have a problem with alcohol on either side...not in my case...and yet, 2 of my daughter's children have AD(H)D...and in the rest of the grandchildren that have the problem, 5 others, there is only one grandparent that has a drinking problem...and that child is getting the proper medical help... JK> What is the educational background of this doctor? Does he or she JK> have any specialized courses in addiction? Is he or she well aware of JK> the new information on brain chemistry and genetics that is pouring out JK> today? Does he or she know anything at all about remedial diet? Since addiction is not a problem in my daughters case, the doctor is more than qualified...what she is doing has been working well on my daughters children. JK> If the answer to any of the above is a no, then take a good look JK> around for someone who can answer yes to most of them. Thank you for this advice. Marie JK> JK> -!- JCQWK JK> ! Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255) ... A classic is a book that is praised but not read. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: PHOENIX RISING BBS *SYSOP STARWITCH* 822-2017 (1:268/442) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1C00001Date: 01/04/97 From: JOHN PRATHER Time: 01:06pm \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Adderall MARK PROBERT wrote it for JOHN PRATHER to answer.. How about this one.... JP>UHHH, isn't Pycnogenol extracted from grape seeds? I seem to JP>remember that this was it's source. MP> Pyc comes from two sources, grape seeds and the bark of a pine tree MP> (which, BTW, is the same place Pine-Sol comes from). Which "works MP> better" depends on the manufacturer. If they use the grape seed, then MP> that works better. If they use the PineSol, then that works better. MP> Simple. MP> BTW, it is an anti-oxidant, and does the same thing vitamin C does. MP> And Vitamin C is one heck of a lot cheaper. Uh! Can't I just drink Pine Sol? .+ * . + o . + EASY * +. < IN INDY > . + o . * . --- GEcho 1.01+ * Origin: The Banter Decanter (1:231/640.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1C00002Date: 01/04/97 From: JOHN PRATHER Time: 01:17pm \/To: RED FERN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Nicotine Red Fern wrote it for John Prather to answer.. How about this one.... JP> Hey, how about this report on nicotine and its relation to JP> controlling ADD and tourettes. RF> I think it sounds great, but nicotine is a lousy drug to be hooked on. RF> I'm trying to quit smoking right now, I've been smoking for about 3 RF> years. I don't think it would be wise to be giving nicotine to young RF> children. Aw, it's easy to quit smoking, I've quit a hundred times!!!!! I have actually quit for several years and started again. They say it may be second only to cocaine in pure addictiveness. A lot of nicotine addiction is the manipulation of the source. If you smoke cigarettes then you would relate the manipultion of the cigaretter with the addiction. If you have ever used the patch, you find that you very quickly build a ritual of sorts around applying the patch. Note that although addicting, small amounts of nicotine (sans tars,carbon monoxide and other chemicals ad infinitum) is reasonably harmless. It is the smoke that causes the health problems. Additionally the patches used were of a very low dosage level and these test are very preliminary. Note that the biggest thing about this was the control of the dosage of haldol in tourettes patients. Considering the control problems of this drug, it could be a consideration. .+ * . + o . + EASY * +. < IN INDY > . + o . * . --- GEcho 1.01+ * Origin: The Banter Decanter (1:231/640.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1C00003Date: 01/04/97 From: JOHN PRATHER Time: 01:27pm \/To: SPACEBOY (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Nicotine Spaceboy wrote it for John Prather to answer.. How about this one.... JP> Hey, how about this report on nicotine and its relation to JP> controlling ADD and tourettes. Saw a big article in the Indy paper JP> sunday. Seems they found that low dosage nicotine patches JP> significantly reduced the dosage of haldol in tourettes patients and JP> seems to have a positive affect on add. Preliminary research but JP> very pervasive. Sp> All things in the universe have both positive and negative effects. Sp> If nicotine has positive effects, what about Marjuana? I realize that Sp> nico- tine is a stimulant and marajuana, a depressent, but they share Sp> many at- tributes. Nicotine often acts as a depressent, while enough Sp> marajuana feels like a stimulant. Uh, I thing nicotine has been classified as a dopamine regulator. It functions according to the rate of introduction to the system. When taken slowly, it relaxes, more of a tranquilizer than a depressant. When smoked quickly it definately acts as a stimulant. Sp> I just heard on the news that a leading medical researcher found that Sp> marajuana doesn't have significant medicinal value. That there are Sp> other drugs that can perform the same tasks without effecting as many Sp> systems. Althogh slightly off topic, I will pose a question. Where do you draw the line. Illegal drugs can usually be replaced with manufactured ones. Many have turned to natural herbs and now the govt. and drug companies are calling for control. How do you classify a medicinal herb from a culinary herb. If we control medicinal herbs will people call their herb products culinary to get by the law. Or maybe we will be forced to pay exorbitant prices for culinary herbs because the companies have to provide efficacy studies for tarragon. .+ * . + o . + EASY * +. < IN INDY > . + o . * . --- GEcho 1.01+ * Origin: The Banter Decanter (1:231/640.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: E1C00004Date: 01/04/97 From: JOHN PRATHER Time: 01:37pm \/To: RED FERN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Adhd....76 Red Fern wrote it for John Prather to answer.. How about this one.... JP> Perhaps we don't know everything about ritilin and there may be JP> people who should never take it, tourettes/add it causes increased JP> tics. I also agree that some psychotic JP> disorders are extremely sensitive to prozac, my sister-in-law went JP> off in a super manic tiff that put her in the hospital for a week. RF> RF> That sounds a lot like what happened to me. I was put on prozac my RF> freshman year in highschool. Did you go psychotic after about 4 or 5 days and have to be pulled off of it. RF> It wasn't until 6 months ago that I took an IQ test and came up with RF> an IQ of 152. That all of a sudden explained why I was so 'different' RF> as a child. That and me being a 2nd generation Indian raised in RF> American society. I'm a little skeptic on how right a psyciatrist is RF> when they lable a kid with ADHD for these reasons, but I can relate RF> with your sister. First, if you have an AD(H)D kid who is struggling through school, ritilin is a god send if it works. I feel for you and your dilema. Also note that it is quite common for ADHD kids to have above average and gifted IQ levels. Were you ever diagnosed to have anything but anything but over caring parents. .+ * . + o . + EASY * +. < IN INDY > . + o . * . --- GEcho 1.01+ * Origin: The Banter Decanter (1:231/640.0)