--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGJ00010Date: 12/14/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:01am \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 2 times) Subj: Attention/behavioral Diso MP>The original poster will need it. Germany, like most of Europe, DOES NOT MP>recognize the existence of ADHD. Just recently the UK began some very MP>reluctant addressing of it. South Africa is slowly becoming aware of its MP>existence. MP> ===>Mark Probert<=== MP> email at MSProbert@aol.com Then, if you can recall the original poster, do let him know that the UK and some of the other European nations are far ahead of us as far as both mental health and addiction are concerned. If he looks around in those areas, he may discover that someone has found something he can benefit from. There are some well known universities in both London and Copenhagen which I have forgotten now that are on line with the results of what is being done over there. * SLMR 2.1a * We all live in a yellow subroutine. --- JCQWK * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGJ00011Date: 12/14/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:01am \/To: JEFF RICHTER (Read 2 times) Subj: Attention/behavioral Diso JR>My kids are all excited about seeing castles, and huge mountains (The Alps). JR>My son is a little nervous, then again who wouldn't be? As for his attention JR>disorder, he is getting better. I realize that these things take time, and t JR>be patient with results. It might be useful to look around at the folks in the UK, Denmark, and other nations who are into the treatment of both mental illness and addiction. They tend to communicate with each other and will have a lot of information that other medical personnel may not have located or read. There are some medical libraries on line in England and other nations in the larger universities if you learn how to find them and use them. This is also true of the Library of Congress. * SLMR 2.1a * On a clear disk you can seek forever --- JCQWK * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGJ00012Date: 12/14/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:01am \/To: LORRETTA CURRY (Read 2 times) Subj: Caffine LC>JK>Sugar in children with family history of low blood sugar will just lead LC>JK>to problems with the kids self medicating later on with drugs. LC>i hate over generalized statements like this..not all will self LC>medicate, some will seek proper medical advise and treat it properly. Not those who become addicted to sugar. The worst case I have seen on that personally is a young man of 35 who has ADHD, and, is most probably also a bipolar alcoholic. He has allergies to the point where only sugars stayed down at times as a child. He uses sugar to give him energy. He will not give it up, could not try a remedial diet which would have given him relief because of his irrational fear of giving up the heavy sugar in his diet for even a few days. He is bonkers when full of the stuff as it will turn into alcohol in his system and he then becomes a very nasty drunk. As a result, he is well known to the police and mental health case workers. * SLMR 2.1a * hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? --- JCQWK * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGJ00013Date: 12/14/96 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:01am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Latest From Nami..... For those who do not know, NAMI means National Alliance for the Mentally Ill and can be found at http://www/nami.org/ On Attention Deficit Hyperactivity: "Is ADHA associated with other neurological, biological, and behavioral disorders? Yes. ADHD is closely associated with: 1. At least 25 percent of children with ADHD suffer from some type of communication/learning disability. 2. Approximately 40 percent of children with ADHAD exhibit signs of Conduct Disorder (starting fights, lying, stealingO or Oppositional Defiant Disorder (disobedience, defiance, and rule breaking.) [This is the same information given in the article I have on file from chemical dependency in an adolescent journal for counselors.) ******************************** Biochemical studies have documented that children with ADHD have lower levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Laboratory animal models relevant to ADHD reveal deficiencies in a number of neurotransmitters, including dopamine. Successful medications for ADHAD affect the levles of several neurotransmitters in the brain." So, now explain to me why there is no mention at all of remedial diet in this article or why children in families where we know that a problem exists before birth (alcoholism and other addictions) in lowered amounts of the neurotransmitters dopamine and serotonin, among others, are going to benefit from anything that might possibly lower these? THe article also states that brain metabolism is lower in patients with ADHD than in normal controls. How about that? Something to do with sugar carbohydrate metabolism or glucose production and use by the brain or what? All they say is that there is a relationship between dietary factors and ADHD and that diet doesn't cause it. Diet doesn't cause diabeties either but it is damnably important to all who have that disease. I will look further into the net and mention anything else that looks promising. In the meantime, it might be useful for parents of ADHD children to find medical journals and read the latest information for themselves. * SLMR 2.1a * This tagline stolen by Silly Little Mail Reader! --- JCQWK * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGJ00014Date: 12/14/96 From: JERRY SCHWARTZ Time: 05:47pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 4 times) Subj: Adhd....76 [Dec 13, 96 - 08:28] Jane Kelley of 1:138/255 wrote to Mark Probert: JK> Then stick to them. The FACTS are, as amply demonstrated by doctors who JK> are specialists in addiction and related fields, that children and JK> others with ADHD are from families with a history of alcoholism in a JK> certain percentage of cases. JK> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'd bet that children and others withOUT ADHD are from families with a history of alcoholism in a much higher percentage of cases. Statements like that are not very useful. Jane, have you ever heard the saying "To a man who only has a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"? I'm afraid that's how you have come across. It may be that AD(H)D is related genetically to alcoholism in some cases, I don't know nor do I know that anyone knows. Doctors who are specialists in addiction and related fields may be justifiably concerned about the effects of medications on the people they treat and study, but that doesn't mean that patients who benefit from medication should do without. There have been a lot of unsubstantiated claims that Ritalin is highly addictive, but the refutation comes readily to hand: people who use Ritalin for AD(H)D often have trouble remembering to take it. That is not typically characteristic of an addiction. About two years ago there was a big discussion of pill timers and the like here in this conference; I doubt that you'd ever hear anything like that in a conference for heroin users. There was a lot of noise about "Prozac made me eat my baby" a few years ago, and that was apparently a well-orchestrated campaign by the Scientologists. Overall, Ritalin and Prozac have both been studied extensively and are relatively benign compared to (for example) a high-fat diet. That being said, I've been told by people in AA/Alanon that alcoholics shouldn't even take aspirin because they have "addictive personalities." I consider that to be suspect on a number of grounds, but it is certainly a common belief. My impression is that you are making the same assertion, basing it on biochemistry rather than the outmoded concept of "addictive personalities." I just don't believe it is particularly relevant to AD(H)D, unless you can come up with a study showing that AD(H)D patients with a family history of alcoholism are prone to abusing Ritalin or other suitable medications. Jerry Schwartz --- Msged/386 4.00 * Origin: Write by Night (1:142/928) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGK00000Date: 12/15/96 From: MARIE WEIDEMANN Time: 01:43am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: alcoholism JK> It is malpractice today to prescribe certain drugs for children with a JK> family history of alcoholism. Concerning the treatment of children JK> with ADHD, a local doctor, a specialist in addiction, states that it is JK> first necessary to treat the underlying alcoholism before medicating JK> the child in question. JK> We do not treat alcoholism with mind altering drugs. JK> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Not in this JK> state, at any rate. I have met the qualifications for someone who does JK> diagnose and treat alcoholism and drug addiction in this state since JK> the early 1980's. That is exactly why I object to the children of JK> alcoholics being damaged by irresponsible practitioners. Why do you keep insisting that the majority of children with ADHD have alcoholism and/or drug addiction in their backround? This is *NOT* the case with my grandchildren and it is not the case of many of the people that post on this echo....It *may* be true, in some cases, but you keep lumping all the AD(H)D children in one group...this is simply not true. Marie Weidemann JK> JK> -!- JCQWK JK> ! Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: PHOENIX RISING BBS *SYSOP STARWITCH* 822-2017 (1:268/442) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGK00001Date: 12/15/96 From: MARYANN KOCHANKO Time: 08:42am \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 1 times) Subj: Ritalin Use Greatly Exagg > This should end the whiners, anti-drugsters and herbal sales scamsters > claims. IMHO the increase can also be attributed to the more aggressive > identification of ADHDers (especially the AGG girls) and the realization > > that ADHD is found and treatable in adulthood. Great news! I have hear a lot of people in my school district complain. My reference on ADHD, which is a couple of years old had said that 5% of children suffer from ADHD. I did some school nurse subbing. While I was in there there seemed like a lot of ritalin in the cabinet. I counted it all, then checked on what the school census was, divided it out and it came out that 5% of the children were on Ritalin. If you consider all of the diseases put together 5% is not that big of a percentage. However with your new statistics perhaps this school district has a lot of ADHD children. But I could also look at the point that, it is a great school district which if you are going to buy a house here. The school district is the major selling point. Perhaps parents with children that have ADHD choose this district becuase they have programs that work with these children. And that would be reason to reflect why it is the 5% and not what your reference stated 2.8%. I have found that the whiners don't have ADHD children. They haven't a clue as to what its like. Happy Holidays and thanks for the great info. MaryAnn --- FMail 1.0g * Origin: You're the computer!..YOU tell me where the file is! (1:267/124.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGK00002Date: 12/15/96 From: JERRY SCHWARTZ Time: 12:26pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Adhd....76 [Dec 14, 96 - 10:01] Jane Kelley of 1:138/255 wrote to Jerry Schwartz: JS>>Perhaps I don't understand what you're referring to. Are you talking about JS>>the natural herbs and other things such as Garlique? Or are you saying JS>>that Shiff et al produce purified and standardized supplements? Can you JS>>give me some examples? JK> I am talking about all herbal remedies that come in bulk form such as JK> the teas or soy protein that comes in bulk which provides amino acids. JK> The manufacturers must make certain that each pill is exactly the same JK> as the one before and after it. Huh? As far as I know, the manufacturers of herbal remedies are under no such strictures beyond the normal requirements that would apply across the board to food stuffs of all kinds. They can't sell camel dung as chamomile, and the weight must match the package, but that's about all. Whether you buy a bag of dried leaves or a bottle of capsules, there is no regulation of bioavailability or anything like that so far as I know. In fact, when the FDA tried to have its power extended to regulate supplements such as you describe, there was a hue and cry that "they're trying to take your vitamins and supplements away." Whether a particular company does its best or not, the industry as a whole is unregulated. Jerry Schwartz --- Msged/386 4.00 * Origin: Write by Night (1:142/928) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGK00003Date: 12/15/96 From: JERRY SCHWARTZ Time: 12:31pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Adhd....76 [Dec 14, 96 - 10:01] Jane Kelley of 1:138/255 wrote to Bob Moylan: JK> 3. Ritalin is known to have caused problems in children who have used JK> in for a long time. One of them that isn't generally mentioned outside JK> of drug and alcohol circles is the talc that builds up in the brain, JK> causing problems with the peripheral vision. Talc builds up in the brain? Mg3Si4O10(OH)2? How on earth would that be related to Ritalin use? Wouldn't it be more associated with the use of talcum powder? There are documented cases of visual disturbances, but they are rare. Jerry Schwartz --- Msged/386 4.00 * Origin: Write by Night (1:142/928) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 222 ATTENTION DEF. Ref: DGK00004Date: 12/15/96 From: JERRY SCHWARTZ Time: 12:46pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Latest From Nami..... [Dec 14, 96 - 10:01] Jane Kelley of 1:138/255 wrote to All: JK> "Is ADHA associated with other neurological, biological, and behavioral JK> disorders? JK> Yes. ADHD is closely associated with: JK> 1. At least 25 percent of children with ADHD suffer from some type of JK> communication/learning disability. JK> 2. Approximately 40 percent of children with ADHAD exhibit signs of JK> Conduct Disorder (starting fights, lying, stealingO or Oppositional JK> Defiant Disorder (disobedience, defiance, and rule breaking.) JK> [This is the same information given in the article I have on file from JK> chemical dependency in an adolescent journal for counselors.) And all of that is common knowledge to us here. The parents of kids with ODD have told particularly heart-rending stories. JK> So, now explain to me why there is no mention at all of remedial diet in JK> this article or why children in families where we know that a problem I think it falls to you to explain that, since you are the one who is trumpeting the virtues of diet as a treatment for AD(H)D. What I see in the NAMI fact sheet is that treatment with medication is common and usually effective, and that cognitive/behavioral therapy "might be useful." This accords with what has been said here often, with such things as karate being recommended as a way of inculcating the impulse control that kids with AD(H)D often lack. I searched the NAMI web site for information about AD(H)D, and found a lot of information which has been kicked around here before but nothing particularly startling. I didn't read all of it, so if there's some particular item you think I missed please let me know. I'm afraid that NAMI doesn't particularly support the stance that dietary supplements are a valuable tool for dealing with AD(H)D. As for the consumption of neurotransmitters some things, when eaten, have specific effects: that is, after all, the point of orally administered medications. Other things, when eaten, have more general effects. One goal in developing a medication is for it to have as narrow an effect as possible, and that is quite difficult when working with natural remedies and dietary supplements. As I understand your statements, you are suggesting that a deficiency in the presence of or neurochemical activity of some neurotransmitters can be remedied by the ingestion of those neurochemicals, their analogs, or their precursors. That might or might not be true, and that reasoning suggests a line of investigation but does not promise a favorable result. Eating serotonin, for example, is not the same thing as taking a medication which boosts serotonin concentrations in some part of the brain. I'm not sure quite what all it would do, but I wouldn't want to ingest large quantities of a vasoconstrictor which is found in various venoms. And the research on serotonin's link to depression indicates that (quoting from a NAMI document) "using a serotonin-releasing drug, doctors observed significant increases, as well as decreases, in metabolic activity in the left and right regions of the brain in the healthy patients but not in patients with depression." That suggests that eating serotonin or its precursors would have little effect on depression. Eating serotonin is probably not going to be the same thing as boosting the metabolism of serotonin in a misfunctioning brain, and in the absence of plausible theory or scientifically-obtained experimental results any suggestion to the contrary is just sympathetic magic tricked out in pseudo-scientific hocus-pocus. Would I drink willow bark tea if I were lost in the woods, had a fever, and had no prospect of obtaining aspirin? Certainly. But would I drink willow bark tea if the drugstore were open nearby? Only if I really liked the ste. Oh, and as for any "eye-witness accounts" of the effect of this diet or that (or anything else, for that matter), consider this little snippet from the NAMI web pages about multiple-personality disorders: "The 'personalities' or 'alters' "1 - when under the control of one personality, the person can't remember events that occurred while other personalities were in control "2 - different personalities exhibit differences in speech, mannerism, attitude, thought, & gender "3 - personalities may differ in physical properties (i.e. allergies, handedness, or eyeglass prescription)" Consider that multiple-personality disorder is believed to be non-organic in origin, yet it can still have such dramatic ramifications for physiological processes such as allergies. Belief, however extreme it may seem to an observer, can have effects as powerful as any medication. Any Christian Scientist would be happy to expound on that at great length. That's why double-blind studies are so critically important, especially in the field of mental health. Come up with double-blind, replicated studies showing that eating x, y, or z will bring improvement to any substantial number of AD(H)D sufferers and you will get a fair hearing, I'm sure. Jerry Schwartz --- Msged/386 4.00 * Origin: Write by Night (1:142/928)