--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3P00009 Date: 03/12/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 06:23pm \/To: MICHAEL HOLT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: ET's would visit us... -=> Quoting Michael Holt to Paul Andinach <=- -=> Quoting Paul Andinach to Michael Holt <=- PA> I think Ken meant that nuclear energy shows that we're an PA> advanced species, worthy of contact. MH> Or maybe worth watching to see whether we'll poison ourselves? Why would any sentient being want to watch other sentient beings poison themselves? You're falling into the old fallacy of assuming aliens are like humans. ;) PA> Or maybe he's referring to the old theory that aliens are visiting PA> to warn us that we could destroy the planet with nuclear energy. PA> (Why didn't they warn us back in 1944, when we hadn't already PA> worked that out for ourselves, and we could have done something with PA> the knowledge, nobody knows.) MH> What's the 1944 reference? I recall Adamski talking about that sort MH> of thing, but he didn't get started until the 50s. Or did he? I MH> don't remember. I have no idea. I was referring to one of Carl Sagan's discussions of alien abduction, where he notes that aliens allegedly often show their victims ghastly films/slideshows of what will happen if humans continue doing whatever it is this set of aliens is warning us about. He then poses the question: If they know what's going to happen if we don't chuck away nuclear weapons, why didn't they warn the Manhattan Project scientists back *before* they built the Bomb and set us on the path to destruction? Why didn't the warnings start until after everyone had too many bombs, and it would be really difficult to fix things? He also asks similar questions about the other things aliens have brought warnings about (always long after whatever-it-is has passed manageable levels), and rounds it off with the general-purpose question: Why do they always give their warnings to some poor nobody who can't do anything but have a nervous breakdown? Why not the President of the United States? The Joint Chiefs of Staff? Whoever it is that runs Russia these days? Paul ... Aliens have invaded Earth! How else do you explain Michael? --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3P00010 Date: 03/12/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 07:31pm \/To: MICHAEL HOLT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Little greys. -=> Quoting Michael Holt to MATTHEW SCRUGGS <=- MH> To some extent, then, the abduction pehomenon becomes a MH> statistical study? That makes sense to me. We have too much MH> data, not all of which is relevant or useful. Somehow, we need MH> to rattle out the material that is not of any value. But I'm not MH> sure how to do that. MH> Consider: we have before us two abduction reports. One of them MH> is from a woman with a history of emotional problems, the other MH> from a man with a stable life. Which one is worth detailed MH> study? The woman or the man? Does a stable life suggest higher MH> credibility in this matter? Speaking from my position in the middle of a Cognitive Psychology unit, the answer is: not necessarily. Anyone can misremember, especially if whoever helped them recover the memories subtly hinted that it had to be aliens. (Brief pause for a related example: Studies have shown that an eyewitness' memory can be changed significantly by something as small as the word used to describe the event. People who are asked what happened when the car "crashed into" the wall remember a far more violent event than people who are asked what happened when the car "contacted" the wall.) Another problem with sorting the real abductees from the other ones is the "It must have been real! I remember it so clearly!" syndrome. Often the clarity and the detail of abductees' memories are cited as evidence that the event was real, even by their psychiatrists, who should know better. There's a famous experiment where people were asked to describe, in as much detail as possible, events from their childhood. After a few repetitions spaced out over time, most of the subjects could remember every event in detail - even the ones that had been made up by the experimenters, which had never actually happened. And many of them refused to believe that some of these "memories" were fake. ("It must have been real! I remember it so clearly!") MH> Does psych0- logical problems always preclude the transmission of MH> relaible data? Lessee, now... drat, I'm not scheduled for Abnormal Psychology until September. MS> Of course, that sill leaves the aftereffects of encounter on the MS> smaller group, but its a start. MH> The smaller group, however, is what we want. I would agree with that. MH> My gut feeling is that we need to identify those persons who are using MH> the abdcution memory as a cover for something else. We may find that MH> it's all a cover for something else. I can't argue with that either. MH> No easy answers. Not even any easy questions. Randall Garrett once wrote that God will answer anything if you ask Him the right question - and that the most reliable way of asking is to go and look for the answer yourself. :) Paul ... We Scorpios don't believe in astrology. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3P00011 Date: 03/12/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 06:53pm \/To: IVY IVERSON (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Skeptics -=> Quoting Ivy Iverson to Paul Andinach <=- DB> That doesn't mean whatever evidence might be brought forth is DB> automatically deemed as fake. II> To many, at least in the field of UFOlogy, it sure seems like it! PA> Another subtle difference people have trouble with: PA> "It might be fake, so it is fake." PA> "It might be fake, so it's safer to assume it is fake until PA> something turns up independently to support it." II> Or, "If it CAN be faked, and _I_ don't think it's likely/possible, II> then it's gotta be faked... so prove otherwise!" Yes, that's the problem. Some "skeptics" are like that, and some people assume that *every* skeptic is like that. Both, we could do without. PA> How many plane crashes have there been since 1945? How many of PA> them have made it onto the news? PA> Repeat, substituting "flying saucer" for "plane". II> "The media" knows all about airplanes and talks freely about them, and II> when one crashes, it's usually a tragedy for many families. When a II> UFO crashes, it's buried by Uncle Sam... and don't think for a II> picosecond that the Govt can't kill any story they want kept quiet! (I II> was in broadcasting, and I KNOW that when someone from the Govt - from II> the local cop-shop to the military - calls on the phone and says, "Not II> a word about such-and-such," NOTHING goes out on the subject, on the II> air, in print or on the electronic wires... IT'S DEAD! Which makes it different from the UFO phenomenon, because if it's DEAD, people don't go on to write bestselling books about it. PA> So you admit that the evidence on which you base your belief is PA> not actually sufficient? II> If I were taking odds, my money would be on it being factual. What are your reasons for making that decision? PA> You've just stated that you accept that your belief in alien PA> visitors is mostly based on evidence that may be false, or at least PA> largely inaccurate. II> ANYTHING is possible. Some things are just more likely than others. PA> What's going on here? II> That's what we are trying to figure out... isn't it? I was referring to the way you apparently managed to agree with a full-scale attack on your position without seeing the need to change your position at all. Paul ... Freedom is just chaos with better lighting. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3P00012 Date: 03/12/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 07:03pm \/To: IVY IVERSON (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Genuine? -=> Quoting Ivy Iverson to Matthew Scruggs <=- II> THAT I will agree with 110%! There is NO DOUBT in my mind that II> it was _N-O-T_ any balloon from ANYWHERE! The givverment HAS to II> know what it is, and has OBVIOUSLY been covering it up for over II> 50 years now! You're not exactly leaving yourself much maneuvering room. What happens if somebody finds proof beyond reasonable doubt that it *was* a Mogul balloon? Or are you just planning to ignore any new information that might give you doubts? II> If it were some then-secret project, it would II> almost certainly have come out in the open by now, just as II> most/all the other stuff out of the black projects of that era II> have Let me see now... US GOVT: We confess. It was a secret project for spying on the Russians with high-altitude balloons. IVY: Keep it coming, I've got a garden to fertilize. II> so I do not believe that it was anything - military OR civilian - II> from our technology of 1947. II> In my mind, that only leaves one source for whatever-it-was, II> which leads to the virtually inescapable conclusion that the II> Givverment is scared s#|][ess that if they tell the truth about II> it, it will cause panic (and rioting) in the streets, because II> "the public couldn't handle the fact that 'someone else' _IS_ II> visiting us!" Summary of Ivy's argument: I don't believe the government when they say it was Project Mogul. Therefore, it wasn't anything from America's technology of the time. Therefore, it could only have been aliens. Therefore, the Government is hiding aliens because it is afraid of how the public will react. I dunno... There seem to be a few holes in that argument... II> My _OPINIONS_ are my own, and may just be the ravings of a II> lunatic... but I don't think so. ;-> I agree with you there; I think "well-intentioned but misguided" fits better. Paul ... faster than a speeding ticket ... --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3P00013 Date: 03/12/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 07:15pm \/To: JACK SARGEANT (Read 3 times) Subj: Postcard -=> Quoting Jack Sargeant to Craig Meekins <=- JS> Geese don't fly in that type of pattern. They fly in formation, JS> similar to aircraft, so as to stay out of each other's slip JS> stream. I was told that the v-formation was because the slipstream (or air turbulence, or something) of the bird in front actually made it easier for the bird behind. Paul ... Some people are alive because it's illegal to kill them. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3P00014 Date: 03/20/98 From: JAMES ROOT Time: 09:18am \/To: PAUL ANDINACH (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: evidence [1/2] -=> Quoting Paul Andinach to John Warner <=- >>> Part 1 of 2... -=> Quoting John Warner to Paul Andinach <=- JW> Remember We'r Only been into Space for less then 40 years other JW> Aliens Races have been doing this for 100000s of Years.. PA> How do you know? Told you, did they? Do you have it in writing? JW> No! but tell me the chances or Odds. that i am wrong! JW> there are billions of Stars and The same must apply to Planets JW> and if the Universe is Over 100000s of Years old. then dont you think JW> one race or another is visiting this planet. PA> Your argument: PA> There are billions of stars. PA> Therefore, there are billions of planets. PA> The universe is over hundreds of thousands of years old. PA> Therefore, alien races have been into space for hundreds of PA> thousands of years. PA> Therefore, at least one alien race is visiting this planet. PA> There's so many holes in that argument that I'm not even going to PA> try to answer it. JW> if the Reports of 1000s of people been Abducted by aliens are JW> True and i do think they are, as they all can not be Crackpots! If there are no legitimate claims established by reports that there is a possibility that aliens might be visiting us with superior technology, then this would substantiate a beleif that they do not possibly exist. The main argument is that they might possibly exist, not that they do in fact exist. The reports indicate that there is a possibility. PA> Your argument: PA> Either abduction reports are true, or all abductees are crackpots. PA> Abductees can not all be crackpots. PA> Therefore, abduction reports are true. I don't think that is what he meant, and I'm sure that you don't think so either, and have an open mind yourself as to the possibilities. PA> My response: PA> The fault in that argument is that this is not an either/or PA> situation. Some of the stories could be true, and the rest false. Of PA> those that are false, some people could be crazy, some could be lying PA> outright, and some could just have been honestly mistaken. What about those who *possibly* saw something, or experienced something which was in actual fact happening and was in all respects reality? Why do you discount that possibility? What would the point be of so many people consistently lying as you suggest? JW> Granted they are some out there the BullDust about seeing aliens JW> but if just 1 out of 9999% is it real. then you must be among whole JW> lot of Crazy people and you better move to a uncharted island as your JW> among Millions that think aliens are real now be real here! PA> I didn't understand a word of that. No, tell a lie, I understood PA> most of the words (except 9999%, whatever that is), it's just the PA> order they're in that I'm having trouble with. PA> Try to state your position more clearly, please. JW> There is something going on inside close doors at the pentagon and at JW> Area-51. or even closer to home at Pine gape.. PA> Quite likely. But why should it have anything to do with aliens? JW> why the Coverups! and Lies... PA> Just so we know what we're talking about, which particular coverups PA> and lies are you referring to? JW> the lies about roswell, by the US Millatry and lets face it they JW> lied for 50 years about what realy happen there. Dummies my JW> Butt!. the wittnesses saw Aliens not Dummies. PA> How do you know? PA> Unless you were there as well, you have no way of knowing that they PA> haven't lied about seeing aliens. PA> Even if they're telling what they believe to be the truth, none of PA> them wrote down what they saw or made a statement at the time. All PA> first told their stories decades later, when their memories were - to PA> be honest - not as reliable as could be hoped. JW> dont you think if you or I where there. would we not know what a JW> Dummies looked like Even in 1947. PA> Yes. PA> But if we didn't see dummies, would we keep quiet for twenty years PA> before telling someone? PA> And if we did see dummies, would we still remember clearly that PA> they were dummies twenty years later? The entire argument here is pointless and would get one nowhere! The reports or ideas, that there has been a cover up at Roswell are interesting things to know, and as such represent not one shred of real evidence, but at the same time the reports are at least consistent with a conspiracy theory, if a conspiracy does in fact exist. It at least, in the lowest level of understanding, causes us to reflect on the possibility that it might be true are at least part of a bigger picture which is not completely revealed to us at this time. You tend to forget that there are people out there (such as myself) who have had at sometime in the past a sighting experience, contact, or abduction , and that they beleive that such things do in fact happen, and that there is substantial evidence which to them remains as part of the mystery. I find it most amuzing when I read skeptical comments, as my particular contact was at that time particularly concerned with the reasons why we humans would not accept the possibility that they existed. Look at it this way. If we acheived the ability to find and discover another planet out there in space, which in fact did harbour intelligent life if not exactly the same but at the same level of advancement as we in the 1940's, then what would our reaction be to them not acknowledging that we existed? This would assume that we would have acheived the ability to be able to monitor their broadcasts and news reports. What attempts would we then make to try to reveal ourselves, assuming that we were not equiped with weapons systems to defend ourselves, only our ability to outpace whatever craft they had developed? How would we convince them that we only wanted peacefull negotiations and contacts, if they suddenly attacked our ships whenever we attempted to show ourselves? Starting a war with them would be against every basic principle, and be completely destructive to what could and would be accomplished if we were able to establish peaceful co-existence, would it not? We must look at the diplomatic aspects of such a situation possibly happening, unless they directly attack our defences and become a threat to us. More important than actually proving that they do exist, then is the possibility that they might exist and for us to have the intelligence and awareness that this probability might someday be the truth and something that we will have to deal with in an intelligent and sane manner. That should be the lesson that the last few years of wild speculative fantasy has taught us. We cannot continue to expect that we are the only life existing in the universe. This type of isolationism will get us nowhere, and could even prove detrimental to serious research and investigation. Serious scientific research does not have room for wild speculative thinking, but an imaginative approach has been proven to work at times. A closed mind approach will get things nowhere. James Root ... If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: Fun and Private Bbs (1:250/123) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3R00000 Date: 03/21/98 From: ROGER NELSON Time: 06:51am \/To: HOWARD GREVILLE-GIDDINGS (Read 5 times) Subj: Killer(?) asteroid approaching Earth! Howard Greville-Giddings wrote in a message to Roger Nelson: RN> Now would be a good time to revive Project Icarus while we still have RN> time. HG> Sorry You've lost me, what is project Icarus ?? 8{ Project Icarus was a plan devised by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) to place rockets with nuclear warheads on a platform orbiting the Earth at a specified distance in space to protect us from just such an event. I forget what year this came out, but now would be a good time to reinstitute the plan, if we haven't already. (-: HG> Anyway what are we worrying about an asteroid for, the most it can HG> do is wipe us all out and would this be a bad thing? ;} In my case, YES! It would be redundant, but not everyone feels as we do. : Regards, Roger Roger.Nelson@f7.n3828.z1.fidonet.org --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: NCS BBS - Mandeville, LA - (504) 626-7968 (1:3828/7) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3R00001 Date: 03/20/98 From: JACK SARGEANT Time: 05:23pm \/To: PAUL ANDINACH (Read 5 times) Subj: Postcard > I was told that the v-formation was because the slipstream (or air > turbulence, or something) of the bird in front actually made it > easier for the bird behind. Maybe that's why aircraft in formation copy the idea. Regards, Jack --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: -=Keep Watching the Skies=- Email to: ufo1@juno.com (1:379/12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F3R00002 Date: 03/21/98 From: JACK SARGEANT Time: 12:06pm \/To: ALL (Read 5 times) Subj: UFO updates =========================================================================== BBS: The Matrix BBS Date: 03-21-98 (08:43) Number: 195 From: JACK SARGEANT Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: 1 1/4 Conf: (195) UFO --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: UFO UpDates - Toronto Received: from mx2.boston.juno.com (mx2.boston.JUNO.com [207.205.100.51]) by m12.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id LAAAA29 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.globalserve.net (smtp1.globalserve.net [209.90.144.2]) by mx2.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id LAAAA22 Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from buddy-guy (dialin1815.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.137.36]) by smtp1.globalserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA29476; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:06:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from updates@globalserve.net) Return-path: To: updates@globalserve.net Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:59:44 -0500 Subject: UFO UpDate: Filer's Files #11 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980320105944.00a3ed70@mail.globalserve.net> X-Status: Read X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) From: Majorstar Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:15:40 EST To: .@aol.com (mabillon@pacbell.net.) Subject: Filer's Files #11 Filer's Files #11-1998 MUFON Skywatch Investigations >From George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, March 19, 1998 Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 SPECULATION MOUNTS FOR INTELLIGENT LIFE ON MARS MARS Liz Edwards has located significant new NASA images in the south polar region of Mars. Assuming this is not a hoax, Lizs images clearly show what appears to be a probable industrial complex. The site is located next to thousands of acres of snow and ice. There is a group of structures consisting of at least eight long narrow buildings, walls or huge pipes and various odd tanks or holding structures. The complex indicates a possible power plant, storage tanks, etc. Surrounding the complex is an almost complete square shaped wall or tube like arrangement. These geometric shapes appear as unexplained artificial features inferring they are not natural. There are distinctive square rows, large holes, and unique rows of circular geometric shapes. The buildings appear to be Quonset like rounded huts of tremendous size squarely cut off at either end. They remind me of giant greenhouses. In addition the image seems obscured near the snow line by fog, heat or cloud effect that may be steam. These geometric shapes infer cultural activity and do not appear natural. One concern is that the pixel scans run up and down the image in line with the structural complex data. The structural complex data could be the result of the image scanning data. In other words, the structures may be caused by computer and transmission problems. I personally have some experience in aerial photographic analysis as a former intelligence officer in the Air Force. If these were photos taken on Earth there would be no question they were constructed by intelligent life. Although, heavy dust has probably covered the buildings over time, and assuming these are real and untouched images, this is significant evidence. We can assume if aliens once lived on Mars they would require water and oxygen for survival. We can therefore speculate, that the snow composed primarily of carbon monoxide could be heated and absorbed by plants within this giant complex. The carbon monoxide is then converted into oxygen and carbohydrates. With the addition of underground water and a source for heat this giant complex could likely be self sustaining. My initial conclusion is that Mars at least at one time had intelligent life. I repeat this is just speculation, but the evidence is building. This confirms evidence from Russian sources that their Phobus II mission detected areas of heat and what may be cities on Mars. Of course, it may be another mistaken identity or hoax, but these look very interesting. The images were posted on 18 March at: http://www.eaglenet.org/IWP/mars.htm I have queried NASA Internal Relations concerning the south pole structure. I was referred to their web sites that stated: The south pole area is of great interest to NASA and this is where the Mars Polar Lander will touch down in late 1999. The new images of the south pole landing region taken by the camera aboard NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, confirm that this strange, layered terrain represents a dramatic departure from the now-familiar Martian landscapes previously observed. In December 1999, the next lander will set down in this uncharted territory to dig for traces of frozen, subsurface water. "Despite ground fog that obscures part of the surface in these images, we can see much more surface detail than we've ever seen before, which suggests that the 75-degree south latitude landing zone is quite a bit more rugged and geologically diverse than we had previously thought," said Dr. Michael Malin of Malin Space Science Systems, Inc., San Diego, CA. Malin is principal investigator of the Global Surveyor camera and the cameras on the 1998 missions, the Mars Polar Lander and its newly named partner, the Mars Climate Orbiter. In the current images from Mars Global Surveyor, obtained during an aerobraking orbit from about 2,800 kilometers (1,700 miles) above the planet's surface, objects about 15 meters (48 feet) across can be resolved. Over the next year, the Global Surveyor images will be used in concert with other spacecraft data such as that obtained by the thermal emission spectrometer to better characterize the geology of Martian south pole. I phoned NASA Internal Relations and asked if they would provide images of Cydonia. NASA assured me that it plans on observing the so called Face on Mars and Cydonia with the Mars Observer now in orbit. NASA is apparently upset by the constant claims by outsiders that they will purposely avoid taking images of the controversial features in the Cydonia area. They resent the public's focus on "conspiracies" that imply they will keep information from the public. The NASA website claims that if an image of the "Face" is acquired, it will most definitely be released. The "Face on Mars," "City," "Fortress," "Cliff," "Tholus," "D&M Pyramid," etc., are in the MOC target database. Image acquisitions will be scheduled each time the spacecraft is predicted to pass over each target. This is done automatically. Given the drifting path of the satellite, there is no certainty that the images will actually include the features of interest. The Mars Observer's orbit is not exact and it may not pass directly over every spot on Mars due to the variations in the orbit, not controlled by NASA. The bottom line is NASA has done everything they can to try to acquire images of the "Face" and other features in Cydonia. This plan was not established in response to outside pressure; rather, there are two reasons for acquiring these images. First, given the interest in the general public about the "Face," it is appropriate to acquire such images for public relations purposes, especially since the public interest has been generated in no small way by the people who claim there is a conspiracy at NASA to withhold information from the public. Second, there are valid scientific reasons to examine landforms in the area (which, after all, is why the Viking spacecraft were photographing the area in the first place). Thanks to NASA. http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/ NEW JERSEY BARNEGAT, NJ. A grandfather writes: My grandchild, Tyler K. is not known to tell stories and does not have any knowledge of UFOs or spacecraft according to his mother. At the time of the incident he told his mother about the UFO. So I had him draw a picture of what he observed on January 11, 1998. He drew the picture of a typical disc craft with green and yellow alternating lights around the rim. On top was a glass dome with a strange creature inside. The creature had a large head and stick like arms with two fingers on each hand. The head did not resemble a >>> Continued to next message * SLMR 2.1a * "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto!" --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: -=Keep Watching the Skies=- Email to: ufo1@juno.com (1:379/12)