> ------------------------------------------ > http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~ghinkle/fun/299.html > Still Hope For Ross Perot > Ross Perot can still win the Presidency -- there's one thing he can > say that people will believe coming from him, that they would not > believe if it came from Clinton or Dole. A single, short phrase that > will bring the biggest voter turnout in history; he'd win by a > landslide. > If Ross Perot were to purchase some TV time and tabloid space, and > say, "If you elect me president, I'll tell you if the government > knows > anything about aliens! We'll take a camera crew into area 51! We'll > have charts and graphs to show how often aliens have visited the > planet through recorded history! I want to do this, but I can't do > it > if I'm not in office." > Can you imagine all the people who normally don't vote, who would > turn > out for this? Those in the South, in California, and maybe even in > Cleveland would suddenly have incentive to go to the polls. He'd win > by an impressive margin. > -------------------------------- But what of that element in power that doesn't seem to change with administrations? That group of black budget people that have the power to tell the President to kiss-off? "Now that you are Pres. Mr. President, here is how we do it here... ...Here is how you will play the game..." js --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: -=Keep Watching the Skies=- ufo1@juno.com (1:379/12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00004 Date: 02/20/98 From: IVY IVERSON Time: 10:35am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: More research data * Crossposted from: L UFO Report * Crossposted from BAMA -=> On 02-19-98 07:14, Jack Sargeant said to All,<=- -=>"About More research data...,"<=- From: "Val Germann" To: Subject: UFOSEARCH #12 -- UFO History; Part III Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:16:55 -0600 UFOSEARCH #12 - UFO History; Part III Val Germann Columbia, Missouri The Build-Up To 1968; The Age Of Zamora The late summer of 1965 saw one of the best known of all U.S. UFO cases, the Texas incident in which a police officer noticed that an injury had been instantly healed after a close encounter with a UFO. Four years later, in Vietnam, I would speak with another soldier whose father was a close friend of this officer. Two days after the incident, the officer in question came to dinner at my informant's house and spoke a little about his run-in with a UFO. He could not hold a cup of coffee without spilling it, so upset was he during the retelling of the event. Also in the late summer began the Exeter series of sightings which would lead to John Fuller's great book 'Incident At Exeter'. The fall of 1965 would also see the Kecksburg incident and the huge power failures in the northeast, which some said were UFO related. But the biggest flap of all was waiting for 1966, in the spring, in Gerald Ford's Congressional District in Michigan. This flap would hit the mass media so hard, and the "swamp gas" foul-up would hold the government up to such ridicule, that in the end the Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, would have to make a public statement. In the background, inside the Beltway, the Air Force's Science Advisory Committee, Sagan a member, made a recommendation, one that led to the O'Brien Committee, which then led to Condon. Strong medicine was needed because, as Keyhoe said, "Public fear of UFOs is at an all-time high." By the fall, Dr. McDonald was using the 'CIA-word' and causing great consternation in secret places, and at Lake Wanaque, N.J., just 50 miles from Manhattan, a spectacular series of UFO sightings took place. Then, early in 1967, McDonald was shown the Robertson Report, an event which helped launch him on a personal crusade to end UFO secrecy once and for all. His campaign picked up great resonance when, in the summer, 'Ramparts' magazine blew the CIA's cover on dozens of domestic spying operations. Then, in the very late summer, in September, came the Snippy case, the first-ever animal mutilation, which was hugely played in 'Life Magazine'. How well I remember this, and how it made me sick to my stomach. What could _this_ be about, I thought! But no one had any idea. And today, more than three decades later, do we know any more about any of this than we did then? And if not, why not? *** ,-----> Ivy's WALL BBS Home of Lakeshore Net <-----, |--------------> Ivy Iverson, KB9QPM/AE <------------| `-> Netmail me a request for info on Lakeshore Net <-' ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- TriToss (tm) 1.03 - (Unregistered) * Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS - Sheboygan, WI 920-457-9255 (1:154/170) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00005 Date: 02/20/98 From: IVY IVERSON Time: 11:37am \/To: PAUL ANDINACH (Read 2 times) Subj: Speculations & fact -=> On 02-18-98 00:05, Paul Andinach said to Ivy Iverson,<=- -=>"About Speculations & fact...,"<=- -=> Quoting Ivy Iverson to Paul Andinach <=- Hi, Paul; II> there is a Rosetta stone that could be used to get a toehold on the II> labguage barrier: The periodic table of the elements, which is II> universal. PA> Okay, but what does it mean? PA> You can't send a message saying "Helium Lithium Oxygen Tellurium PA> Oxygen Ytterbium Oxygen Uranium". It's pointless. Not sure what a linguist could make out of it if it were in an unknown language, but at least it's SOMETHING every place would have in common. And then there's the numbers... they may have different names in different languages, but they all mean the same, and since numbers are the ONLY thing that computers work with, (A = 00000001, B = 00000010, C = 00000011 etc), (Actually there is an offset, which would prove no problem for even a small computer), a linguist, particularly one with cryptology experience, could do a lot more with it than 99.9% of the population. II> ... The SysOp of this BBS is from Alpha Centuri, The CoSysOp is from II> Mars. PA> Are you slighting the technology of Ross' species? Suggesting that PA> they can't develop FTL is probably the greatest insult you could PA> offer. :) Absoloutely! OUR technology is at least 30,000 years ahead of his primitive species, and he's still only about 400 years ahead of you earthlings. MY computer is so advanced that I just read your messages telepathically and THINK the answer and it sends it out... you poor souls still have to TYPE your messages with your FINGERS! Our kids start out using toys that are FAR more powerful than your Cray computers. And our SLOWEST modems run at only 1 Gigabyte/Sec. See how backward you are? PA> ... Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Pets are from Pluto. See? Your people STILL can't think any farther than your own solar system. I imported that into my SOCIAL EVIDENCE file, to show my people back home just how backward your race really is! (And it took less than a second for it to get from here to there using SuperLamda technology - what your Sci-Fi writers call Warp speed!) Catch you later... Keep l00king up! (You may see my mothership!) :-> Ivy ... All Earthlings, please stand up... (I will remain seated.) -- -=[ Ivy's WALL BBS <-KB9QPM/AE-> Hi, Jack! <-> Happy New Year to All! ]=- ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- TriToss (tm) 1.03 - (Unregistered) * Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS - Sheboygan, WI 920-457-9255 (1:154/170) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00006 Date: 02/20/98 From: IVY IVERSON Time: 09:41am \/To: DAVID BLOOMBERG (Read 2 times) Subj: [1/2] Skeptics NOT always >>> Part 1 of 2... -=> On 02-19-98 09:41, David Bloomberg said to Ivy Iverson,<=- -=>"About Skeptics are always right...,"<=- Hi, David; I started answering this, got called away when it was ALMOST finished, and then a power dump of about half a second wiped out the whole works! (Damned power company... that's the THIRD TIME THIS WEEK!!!) Now I don't have time to give you a full answer. I have GOT to find the money to replace the batteries in my UPS! :-< II> ... Patch is telling me as I type this that he said, "Do not take on II> faith, anything without a solid basis of evidence." DB> Wow. That would pretty much decimate ufology! II> So the question begs, "What is `solid evidence?'" DB> Something that ufology is missing. II> I will agree to a point, DB> Wow.... We aren't THAT far apart, at least on UFOs! II> HOWEVER a tru-blu SKEPTIC will refuse to believe what little evidence II>does exist, simply because it COULD have been faked! DB> Are you now doing what Jack did, and redefining the term "skeptic" DB> according to your own beliefs? From my little "home" dictionary: Skeptic n. A person who doubts or questions. DB> A skeptic _may_ refuse to believe DB> evidence if there is other evidence that the evidence was, indeed, DB> faked. That doesn't mean whatever evidence might be brought forth is DB> automatically deemed as fake. To many, at least in the field of UFOlogy, it sure seems like it! II> Yes, pictures have been faked for years, and can now be faked in minutes II> using a computer, so pictures by themselves are automatically suspect, DB> Unfortunately, this is true. ... II> _IF_ there are II> any GENUINE UFO pictures, (stills, movies or videotape), how would/could II> they be verified as not faked? DB> It would be difficult. However, it is at least possible to rule out DB> some forms of fakery. For example, the Gulf Breeze photos were DB> identified as fakes (by MUFON investigators) because the light DB> reflections from the supposed spacecraft didn't show up the way they DB> should have (this made it obvious that it was a double-exposure). DB> With current computer programs, it may be possible to overcome some of DB> these problems, and thus make hoaxes easier, but some others may still DB> crop up. You cannot "double expose" videotape like you can film. That would have to be done on editing equipment, such as found in a TV station. II> ... So the II> question now becomes, _IF_ a picture, (still or moving), can be alidated II> as genuine, how is anyone going to determine if the object(s) originate on II> Earth or have another source? DB> That depends on the given picture. Obviously, if you take a picture DB> of a Stealth Bomber, and you think it's a UFO, it's possible for DB> others to point out that, no, it's just a Stealth Bomber. If, however, DB> it can't be identified just from the photo, then more investigation DB> needs to be done. After you have examined and anyalized the pictures and interviewed all known witnesses, if the thing wasn't seen to land, where else would you investigate? And how about the reports of "large triangular objects," which the Stealth planes are, are flying NOISLESSLY 50 Ft over the observer's head, at an estimated speed of 20-30 MPH, (which a Stealth plane CAN NOT DO!!!)? And these things have been reported by numerous witnesses along a track of many miles! II> ...the final question, II> I guess, is, "WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE EVIDENCE?" If I were to witness a UFO 50 II> feet over my head, and I saw it drop some small object, which turned out II> to be made of, say, a titanium and aluminum alloy, and it had "strange II> markings" on it, would THAT constitute "evidence" which you would ccept? DB> It would constitute a piece of evidence. Further investigation would DB> have to be done to see how that evidence stands up. But since nothing DB> like this has ever happened, we're just speaking of an incredible DB> hypothetical situation here. Ok, and how many people have found parts/objects which have fallen out of or off of airplanes? II> ... No, the majority of what _I_ have accepted as evidence is when II> personal friends, people who are NOT prone to spinning yarns, and who II> do NOT discuss their experiences with strangers for fear of ridicule, II> describe to me, in private, stories of their abductions and other ET/UFO II> experiences. DB> You accept that as evidence. I have seen enough information such DB> that, while I doubt they are necessarily "spinning yarns," they may be DB> unwittingly telling a false story. True. Haven't you heard of "screen memories," involving such things as deer and owls at times/places where they would not be expected to be? For instance, in an area where none have been seen in years, or at a time of day/night when they would not be expected to be out and about? DB> And if all we have is their word DB> for what happened, that is simply not good evidence for such an DB> extraordinary claim (especially when all the inconsistencies in so DB> many of these stories turn up). Inconsistancies, huh? How about the college professor set up the following activity during one of his classes: In the middle of the lecture, someone comes running into the room, yelling, "Help! Help!" followed a few seconds later by someone else holding a banana. The second person points the banana at the first, yells "BANG!" and leaves as the first person screams and falls to the floor. The professor then has the class write an account of what had just happened. The result was that out of the whole class, NO TWO REPORTS WERE THE SAME, and OVER HALF reported that a real gun had been used and that the first person was shot dead! So much for your inconsistancies! >>> Continued to next message... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- TriToss (tm) 1.03 - (Unregistered) * Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS - Sheboygan, WI 920-457-9255 (1:154/170) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00007 Date: 02/20/98 From: IVY IVERSON Time: 09:41am \/To: DAVID BLOOMBERG (Read 2 times) Subj: [2/2] Skeptics NOT always >>> Part 2 of 2... II> Add to that, the statements of EX-military people who II> _claim_ to have been involved with such matters on a highly-classified II> military level, who state that they believe that this information should II> be made public. DB> You highlighted the proper word -- "claim." When they can provide DB> good evidence to back those claims, then we'll have something. DB> Unfortunately, most of them are more interested in selling books than DB> providing good evidence. This may or may not be the reason of some or all. I will reserve judgment. Catch you later... Keep l00king up! Ivy ... I am Sully of Borg, and I STILL don't believe in aliens! -- -=[ Ivy's WALL BBS <-KB9QPM/AE-> Hi, Jack! <-> Happy New Year to All! ]=- ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- TriToss (tm) 1.03 - (Unregistered) * Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS - Sheboygan, WI 920-457-9255 (1:154/170) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00008 Date: 02/20/98 From: IVY IVERSON Time: 10:07am \/To: DAVID BLOOMBERG (Read 2 times) Subj: Skeptics NOT always right -=> On 02-19-98 09:52, David Bloomberg said to Ivy Iverson,<=- -=>"About Skeptics are always right...,"<=- II> ... We basicaly know what _OUR_ technology II> can do, however we don't have the foggiest idea of what the technology II> of some other race that developed maybe 10 or 100 or 1,000 light years II> from here - a race which may be 10,000 years ahead of us - can do. DB> Actually, we do have some idea, just in terms of energy requirements DB> and the like. To a degree, however _IF_ it is possible to use "wormholes" and/or to "warp" space, as some theoraticians have suggested, do we know how much energy THAT would take? And do we know how much energy can be "packed" into a small space? IMO it would probably be some kind of atomic reactor, and that is something we DON'T know! _OUR_ "atomic age" is only about 50 years old, and we have come a long way from the first reactor under a university's stadium, but how much energy CAN be packed into something the size of an interstellar "mothership," or even a little "scout" which would be used for cruising the countryside? The truth is, WE DO NOT KNOW! We only know how much energy _WE_ could put in such a package, not what another technology 100 or 10,000 years ahead of us can do! DB> If you are a Star Trek fan, I would suggest you read DB> _They Physics of Star Trek_. It talks a bit about what the energy DB> requirements would be for some of the things they do (like warping DB> space, traveling at their speeds, etc.) I'm about to start _Beyond DB> Star Trek_, by the same author, and he discusses various UFO-related DB> subjects in there as well. ...Again based upon _OUR_ knowledge and technology in the 1990's. II> Stop and think how much OUR technology has lept foreward in the last 100 II> years: A hundred years ago man had never flown in a heavier-than-air II> aircraft, and now we have walked on the Moon. 100 years ago the nearest II> things to a computer were the abacus and the slide rule, (which may only II> have been invented a century ago for all I know), now you have a omputer II> on the desk in front of you that can do more calculations in one second II> than you could do in a lifetime with a slide rule and paper! A hundred II> years ago our main transportation was powered by horses, now we have II> hundreds of horsepower under the hood, and we can travel all day at a II> mile a minute instead of 20 miles an hour with rest periods every so II> often for the horses. If this illustrates the progress we have made in II> a short century - an eyeblink in history - how much more could be done y II> our technology in another thousand years? Or ten thousand years? Is it II> just POSSIBLE that another technology has broken the light barrier? Our II> theoriticians say it MIGHT be done. I won't discount the POSSABILITY. DB> I'm not discounting the possibility either, Ivy. Is it likely? No. Why not? How can you or I say something is not likely to be possible for another technology, invented by scientists with possibly a VERY different outlook on life, and with who-knows-how many years/centuries they have been working on it before our ancestors dropped out of the trees and went scurrying to the caves? DB> It is POSSIBLE? Maybe. The fact remains that until we have good DB> evidence that some aliens ARE visiting us, it's all nothing more than DB> speculation and belief without backing. Belief without backing, huh? Ok, how's your religion these days? Do you believe that there is/are one or more supreme beings, or did everything "just happen" by itself? _IF_ you believe in "something higher," upon what do you base that belief/faith/knowledge? Do you base it upon a "Holy Book" called a Bible, Koran or by whatever other name? Or upon things that were taught to you since the day you were old enough to be taken to Church in your parent's arms? When you see a beautiful scene or sunset, do you think of it as God's handiwork, or do you think that it's just the result of nature taking it's course? And before Jack jumps on me for bringing religion into it, I am NOT asking your opinion, I am simply asking you to think for a moment: Where does religious faith come into the picture? It is something that many people take TOTALLY on faith, from being preached to from the pulpet every week, and seeing the sunset, the beautiful scenery, the gentle brease on the face, the rain to water the farmer's crops, all as the proof of that faith, while the athiest only sees the same things as nature taking it's course. There are many who believe TOTALLY in a religious faith who are total skeptics when it comes to UFOs, yet neither has any more "solid proof" than the other! Just smething to think about. Catch oyu later... Keep l00king up! Ivy ... Skeptic's Cleaver: Hack off any nonconforming evidence. -- -=[ Ivy's WALL BBS <-KB9QPM/AE-> Hi, Jack! <-> Happy New Year to All! ]=- ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- TriToss (tm) 1.03 - (Unregistered) * Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS - Sheboygan, WI 920-457-9255 (1:154/170) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00009 Date: 02/17/98 From: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL Time: 12:15pm \/To: IVY IVERSON (Read 2 times) Subj: Sorry to see you go! Hello Ivy, II> GJO> I will continue to participate in the U.F.O echo as a normal user II> At least you won't be leaving completely... :-] Yes, you should not notice a difference...I will still post here, as I am interested in the subject matter and have enjoyed the discussions with all the people here. Oh...something you might find interesting. You ever see footage of a flying disc crashing. Answering my mail thorough a dedicated U.F.O BBS, the is a great deal of motiong picture materials. Anyhow, this object heads toward the ground at 45 degrees and just before impact, there is an emission of light from the bottom (we are not sure whether it actual hits and its due to the impact or if it is some thrust from a populsion system). The object pulls up (you can see the powerlines pass by and the scenery) and makes an arc over the ground. The second time it comes down it slams into the ground and fragments into hundreds of pieces. This fragmentation occurs in piece which are approximately the same size...which means the structre lack hard points. Anyhow, it could be a drone or something...I do not know what it is. Perhaps you seen it before... --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: Beyond Reality: UFO/Paranormal Archives (03) 9773-3721 (3:632/562) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00010 Date: 02/19/98 From: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL Time: 04:23pm \/To: JACK SARGEANT (Read 2 times) Subj: My stand on UFOs JS> I stress these points I have presented in the name of UFOlogy. JS> Too much "I believe" deters from legitimate research, because there JS> just aren't any aliens being found behind the bush. Too many people JS> are associating UFOs with alien visitors/invaders. JS> A healthy dose of reality is needed from time to time, and that too JS> is part of my job, so don't misunderstand my motives. ;-) JS> Now that the more "aggressive" skeptics have retreated to the JS> background to either re-group or sulk (I don't care which), our JS> remaining "staff" of skeptic contributors are called upon to keep the JS> rest of us in touch with reality. I call upon all UFO researchers, JS> UFOlogists, and investigators to continue their activities, but with JS> skeptism uppermost in their minds. My advice is best for our image, JS> believe me. A word or two on this important point your raised. It is beyond doubt that UFOs exist....and 90% of all U.F.O.s (a figure somwhere in the correct ballpark) are deemed explain by natural phenomena. So what counts as evidence for the ets hypothesis? Would not you sighting be a small piece of evidence since this explanation seems to explain all the facts. Same as the sighting over Tehran and many others. With regards to the Skeptics.... ..they claim to represent the name but a great deal of them suffer from the same ignorance as the worst of the ufo buffs. They come in with a set viewpoint from the beginning, and believe error ridden claims from the 'experts' like some in ufo field take to Lazar. The problems occur on both sides but at least here people can admit a problem exists. --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: Beyond Reality: UFO/Paranormal Archives (03) 9773-3721 (3:632/562) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2Q00011 Date: 02/19/98 From: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL Time: 04:51pm \/To: DAVID BLOOMBERG (Read 2 times) Subj: My stand on UFOs DB> JS> ...To bring the "truth" to us like some fundamentalist knocking on y DB> JS> door? That is the impression I get from some skeptics. DB> Then, as you often do, you have gotten the wrong impression. DB> Skeptics don't bring "The Truth." Indeed, we QUESTION claims to The DB> Truth. We bring rationality, critical thinking, and science -- some DB> things that are sorely lacking in the UFO arena. Oh..that would be good in your glorified ideal David but this is not always the case. Your fellow skeptics have had their share of a lack of rational thinking (claims about 2 bets, lies about moderation...I will not name anyone) and have looked silly a number of times in science issues (impossible energy for time dilation (half your echo made the claim to me at one point), time dilation not useful for space travel, etc). I have made mistakes before too (assumption on AIM-9 missile range (yet to be resolved), classification of DIA memo in Tehran), its however, hardly comparable to what I have seen; And your people would never admit it David. No person is immune to ignorance, and it should be the task of the other users to bring that person back in line. Just because somebody is defending some radical interpretation on an event which does not fit into the skeptics belief system, it does not excuse the silence when some skeptic attmepts to debunk an outsider with false information. These energy claims were a prime example....now they are all over and seemingly all forgot ten. Had it been an outsider making these claims, he would of been dragged through the dirt and humiliated. --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: Beyond Reality: UFO/Paranormal Archives (03) 9773-3721 (3:632/562)