--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2H00014 Date: 02/10/98 From: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL Time: 12:08am \/To: JACK SARGEANT (Read 2 times) Subj: My stand on UFOs JS> [...] JS> > The energies are not as extreme as some people would like you to JS> > think. The reason we can only see a 0.75C quasar is because the JS> > particles horizon is only about 15 billion ly in radius. The JS> > universe is far far larger with higher speeds the further out we go. JS> > Yet the 15 billion year time limit, ensures we can only see that JS> > far into space. Anyhow, this was obtained through a faster than JS> > light expansion of space-time early on and is not very relevant. JS> > Since we a discussion expansion through space-time not the JS> > expansion of spacetime. I will post up the energy requirement of a JS> > trip soon. JS> George, JS> Any faster than light travel our universe may have been involved JS> with in or near the beginning of time (the Big Bang), is lost to us JS> forever. Yes..that is true...I did not claim otherwise... --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: Beyond Reality: UFO/Paranormal Archives (03) 9773-3721 (3:632/562) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2H00015 Date: 02/10/98 From: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL Time: 12:19am \/To: FRED AUSTIN (Read 2 times) Subj: My stand on UFOs FA> I have seen that you were a fairly serious person concerning FA> this topic, it disturbs me now to see this change. Also considering FA> that you vehemently describe a sighting many years ago, and stand FA> on its authenticity to this day. Are you now changing that FA> viewpoint to say it was the Avro craft? Are you now second guessing FA> your own senses? Hmm. Are the skeptics really getting FA> to you...... FA> Happy Trails, FA> Fred. Indeed, I feel the same way....I was shocked to heard the moderators admission on this. I was going to explain why the military projects is not a good explanation but you did a good job....and I am low on time... Regards George --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: Beyond Reality: UFO/Paranormal Archives (03) 9773-3721 (3:632/562) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2H00016 Date: 02/11/98 From: MICHAEL HOLT Time: 09:47am \/To: CRAIG MEEKINS (Read 2 times) Subj: Genuine? -=> Quoting Craig Meekins to Michael Holt <=- CM> Don't forget 'Land of the Giants' as well! All great Sci-Fi of the CM> time. I think that 'Voyage to the Bottom of Sea' had them beat as far CM> as aliens appearing though. Hmmm..... I'd still like to have a complete collection of "Voyage.." -- even the stupid ones, of which there were many. This brought up a question about those showw. Frequently, they used UFOs and space aliens in them; did they ever base those shows on real reports? Even more interesting, in an off-beat way, is whether or not some events which were experienced by the writer(s) or the families thereof. It might be instructive to obtain a fictionalized version of an encounter, written preferably the one who experienced it, and an outside report, written by a serious and disciplined investigator, of the same event. ... It's not my damn planet, monkey boy! --- FMail 0.98 * Origin: BIG DEAL BBS, Adoptees in Search! 804-754-0189 (1:264/232) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2H00017 Date: 02/11/98 From: MICHAEL HOLT Time: 10:01am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: (humor) Perot * Crossposted from: FUNNY Found on the FUNNY echo: Subject: get http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~ghinkle/fun/299.html Still Hope For Ross Perot Ross Perot can still win the Presidency -- there's one thing he can say that people will believe coming from him, that they would not believe if it came from Clinton or Dole. A single, short phrase that will bring the biggest voter turnout in history; he'd win by a landslide. If Ross Perot were to purchase some TV time and tabloid space, and say, "If you elect me president, I'll tell you if the government knows anything about aliens! We'll take a camera crew into area 51! We'll have charts and graphs to show how often aliens have visited the planet through recorded history! I want to do this, but I can't do it if I'm not in office." Can you imagine all the people who normally don't vote, who would turn out for this? Those in the South, in California, and maybe even in Cleveland would suddenly have incentive to go to the polls. He'd win by an impressive margin. ... Sorry... it's the chocolate talking. --- FMail 0.98 * Origin: BIG DEAL BBS, Adoptees in Search! 804-754-0189 (1:264/232) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2H00018 Date: 02/09/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 03:49pm \/To: IVY IVERSON (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Occam -=> Quoting Ivy Iverson to Paul Andinach <=- II> And when I say that Occam's razor is rusty, I mean that: II> A) it is often used to "taylor" the facts/evidence to coincide with II> preconcieved beliefs I thought you understood. You can't use Occam's Razor to tailor the evidence. You can claim that that's what you're doing, but it isn't. II> B) The simplest explaination is NOT always the correct one! Of course not. But the point of Occam's Razor, which you don't seem to have grasped, is that it only applies when all the possible explanations would give exactly the same results. If you can't tell the difference between "something is not happening" and "something is happening, but all the evidence is being hidden or destroyed", it's not actually going to make any difference which explanation you believe, but it's easier on you if you believe the simple one. The application of Occam's Razor is not an issue in the ET debate. The problem is that the two sides can't agree whether the two explanations do, in fact, describe the evidence equally well. If, as you say, the evidence does support the ET theory better, then Occam's Razor doesn't even get a look in. II> Just II> because the Moon APPEARS to be a flat disk, to someone who knows II> absoloutely nothing about the solar system and orbital mechanics, II> Occam's razor suggests that the Moon IS flat. PA> If that is so, then how do we all "know" that Earth and Moon are PA> spheres? II> Because... II> ...by observing the phases of the Moon II> in relation to the Sun, the only way that particular pattern of the way II> the terminator moves accross the visible face of the Moon is if it, at II> least the side facing us, is spherical. If it were flat, it would go II> from full Moon to new Moon very abruptly In other words, the theory that the Moon is a flat disk does *not* fit the available evidence. So Occam's Razor *doesn't* suggest that the Moon is flat. II> The believers, OTOH, II> accept at least a FEW of the pictures which allegedly show UFOs, II> (though many if not most are fakes!), and that the testimony of those II> who claim to have been abducted MAY have some degree of truth, and II> reject the "razored" explainations. PA> And that's drawing conclusions from bad evidence. II> Is that worse that disregarding evidence which DOES NOT FIT THE II> BELIEFS? Did I say it was? All I meant was that is didn't have anything to do with Occam's Razor. PA> Admittedly, some people do ignore evidence they don't like, or PA> search only for evidence to support their view. Alas, this happens. PA> But Occam's Razor has *nothing* *to* *do* *with* *it*. II> But they CLAIM it does!!! PA> And so do you. Or so it seems to me. II> Au contrare. Au contraire. With an "i". PA> Keep watching the skis! II> Always! An avid watcher of the Winter Olympics, are you? :) Paul ... I've made up my mind. Now to find some facts... ;) --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2H00019 Date: 02/09/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 03:56pm \/To: FRED AUSTIN (Read 2 times) Subj: UFOs -=> Quoting Fred Austin to Paul Andinach <=- FA> Correct. Well known. Long ago conceded that yes, in this FA> world, for many reasons people have mistaken the planet Venus for FA> something they could not identify, therefore my God, its a UFO, and if FA> the clouds were moving, and the branches were swaying it may have FA> actually given the illusion that the planet Venus moved a little. Now FA> it have long ago been a given that 95% of things seen could be FA> attributed to excited people, dumb people, drunk people, stoned FA> people, or any other category you would like to throw out. But the FA> interest point is that elusive 5% or 2% whichever that have solid FA> witnesses, strange characteristics, and defy explanation under our FA> current scientific knowledge, and also exceed our technological FA> capabilities. I have no argument with any of that. My problem with George was that he seemed to be saying: Some UFOs have been seen moving in strange unpredictable patterns, therefore no UFO can be a star because stars don't move like that. FA> There FA> are some many myths floating around, and one of the problems the way I FA> see it, it is easy to dismiss something as a meteor, or delusion, in FA> some cases you are quite correct. I agree. But in some other cases, I FA> would like to see data on why you think it is bogus. Fair enough. I'll keep that in mind. Paul ... Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2K00000 Date: 02/14/98 From: IVY IVERSON Time: 11:56pm \/To: MATTHEW SCRUGGS (Read 2 times) Subj: Genuine? -=> On 02-11-98 12:37, Matthew Scruggs said to Paul Andinach,<=- -=>"About Genuine?...,"<=- Hi, Matt; MS> Paul: MS> Only the PURPOSE of MOGUL was classified, the balloon part was NOT MS> secret. That is what I would expect... balloons had been around a long time by 1947. I have no idea how big the Mogul "package" was, but if it was light enough to carry by a balloon, it should have fit in the back of a truck, such as the Army Standard Duce-and-a-half, I can't understand why they would need the large security force, the hands-and-knees clean-up, the large-area that was secured until the clean-up was finished, and the "You saw NOTHING and you will say NOTHING" attitude of the trenchcoat types in the Roswell area following the incident. So here is yet ANOTHER sliver of evidence, backed by a grain of logic, that the latest O-fishy explaination of "what happened at Roswell" was _NOT_ what happened at Roswell! Sorry, Pentigon, but it STILL doesn't wash!!! Catch you later... Keep l00king up! Ivy ... "I thought YOU had the controls" -voice recorder found at Roswell -- -=[ Ivy's WALL BBS <-KB9QPM/AE-> Hi, Jack! <-> Happy New Year to All! ]=- ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- TriToss (tm) 1.03 - (Unregistered) * Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS - Sheboygan, WI 920-457-9255 (1:154/170) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2K00001 Date: 02/14/98 From: IVY IVERSON Time: 12:20am \/To: JACK SARGEANT (Read 2 times) Subj: Skeptics are sometimes wr -=> On 02-12-98 17:08, Jack Sargeant said to All,<=- -=>"About Skeptics are sometimes wr...,"<=- Hi, Jack; JS> Galileo was persecuted by the skepics in the church. 400 years after JS> he was tormented, kept under house arrest, and otherwise ruined, he JS> was eventually vindicated, and his beliefs upheld. Is it a coincidence that your post arrived at my BBS on the day before Galileo's birthday? He was born on Feb. 15th, 1564. Also, Patch is telling me as I type this that he said, "Do not take on faith, anything without a solid basis of evidence." So the question begs, "What is `solid evidence?'" JS> The moral of the story is, apply your skeptism with care and JS> sincerity. Amen! Catch you later... Keep l00king up! Ivy ... Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers. -- -=[ Ivy's WALL BBS <-KB9QPM/AE-> Hi, Jack! <-> Happy New Year to All! ]=- ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- TriToss (tm) 1.03 - (Unregistered) * Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS - Sheboygan, WI 920-457-9255 (1:154/170) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2K00002 Date: 02/12/98 From: JACK SARGEANT Time: 05:08pm \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Skeptics are sometimes wrong Galileo was persecuted by the skepics in the church. 400 years after he was tormented, kept under house arrest, and otherwise ruined, he was eventually vindicated, and his beliefs upheld. The moral of the story is, apply your skeptism with care and sincerity. js --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: -=Keep Watching the Skies=- ufo1@juno.com (1:379/12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F2K00003 Date: 02/13/98 From: JACK SARGEANT Time: 02:42am \/To: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL (Read 2 times) Subj: Attacks on my character. > I am giving in my position as science advisor. The reasons > are: > 1) I soon will lack the time to moderate the science content > of this > echo effectively (due to continue studies and such) > 2) I am not impressed with these conflicts between the > echos...I no longer feel that I should elevate one above > the other. I am not going to go into this any further. > I will continue to participate in the U.F.O echo as a normal > user and wish you all the best of luck. > Best Regards, George Jiri Opletal George, I understand your situation and wish you luck with your continued studies. We will all miss your technical expertise. Jack Jack Sargeant, Moderator -=UFO echo=- --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: -=Keep Watching the Skies=- ufo1@juno.com (1:379/12)