--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500038 Date: 01/04/98 From: FRED AUSTIN Time: 02:02am \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 3 times) Subj: Carl Sagan on UFOs -=> Quoting RON TAYLOR to FRED AUSTIN <=- Hi Ron, > So they claim to be true skeptics. But a true skeptic would not ven >bother with this subject, they would walk on. RT> You are still misusing the word, "skeptic". True or otherwise, a RT> skeptic is just that... one who doesn't believe that a conclusion has RT> been reached. If you wish to append the word "true" to imply that he RT> tends to disbelieve, then you have described me. I would propose that a true skeptic still would not bother with let us say the notion of ET etc. Whatever the data. It has been demonstrated that both sides pro and con have a tendency to distort facts. Each for different reasons. My only problem with the more zealous skeptics is I find that some points or data dismissed very easily with counter claims such as Venus etc etc, sometimes to the point of being ludicrous. Also I find some claims on the zealous pro side to be ludicrous. Perhaps all should take a step back and a deep breath. This of course does no one any good. Credibility is what we all should seek, pro side and con side... > Perhaps >that is why our skeptical friends keep tabs on our emerging tales. Because >deep down they know in theory anything is possible. And that this is a >serious issue that needs to be settled one way or another.......... RT> We agree, but for different reasons. 1) If the ET hypothesis is true, RT> we will be better off knowing the truth so we can exploit it to the RT> fullest for the benefit of mankind, and/or understanding it so we can RT> be prepared to guard against it. And, 2) If the ET hypothesis is RT> false, there are millions of people being scammed by it. There are also RT> those that are so overwhelmed by it that they are partially or wholly RT> dysfunctional much the same as with any other psychological disorder. RT> You seem to lean toward the former case while I fall lean to the RT> latter. In either case, it needs to be put to rest. Ah the keyword though Ron is agree. My minor profile is semi accurate then. Different reasons and different motivations but then the end is still the same. Either way. Your interest is not much different than mine. Your points made are quite valid,I agree. At least we have oddly found a middle ground,between skeptic and pro, in a phenomenon that has many aspects. And I thought skeptics and pro could not agree on anything (in theory).. :) ................  Internet: Fred.Austin@juxta.mn.pubnix.net  Fred.Austin@sphinx.hughestech.com ... Kids: They're not sleeping, they're recharging! --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500039 Date: 01/04/98 From: FRED AUSTIN Time: 02:21am \/To: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL (Read 3 times) Subj: Skeptic's corner. -=> Quoting George Jiri Opletal to Fred Austin <=- FA> I will pass a comment on the autopsy business, Santilli rides GJO> I total agree and it is the opinion of researchers like Stanton GJO> Friedman, that the amount of wheeling and dealing for tv contracts, GJO> instead of verifing the film, has put it credibility to ground zero. GJO> Actually, Friedman spent a great deal of time chasing up these claims GJO> (the supposed camera man as such), but what he got was repeatingly GJO> changing interview dates and in the end, extremely little new GJO> infomation. Hi George, Well I think this business is fairly well laid to rest, at least I hope. As much as people would like this to be real, there is very little chance of it being so. It does not take technical scrutiny or lack of cameraman, to see the length of time this has been stalled and the simple dodging tactics. A true film would be priceless, the most sought after item in the world,it would be in the owner's best interest to have it verified. So we have nothing after all this time except a marketing scheme of video tapes etc and a few tv shows. All it adds up to is BS, something I guess I said quite a while back..........  Internet: Fred.Austin@juxta.mn.pubnix.net  Fred.Austin@sphinx.hughestech.com ... Enter any 12-digit prime number to continue. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500040 Date: 01/04/98 From: FRED AUSTIN Time: 02:46am \/To: KEN KUBOS (Rcvd) (Read 3 times) Subj: Testor's UFO....Coming -=> Quoting KEN KUBOS to JACK SARGEANT <=- KK> The model maker, "Testor's" is putting out a UFO. It's Sport Model KK> and is Bob Lazar's. Apparently Testor's is putting some credence in KK> Bob Lazar's story. KK> Testor's also brought out a F-117 and and Aurora prior to them KK> declassified by the Air Force. On a different note I do believe there are models of the Millennium falcon, ST U.S.S Enterprise,Klingon bird of prey, and other ships of the universe. Does this add weight to their existance. I think not............  Internet: Fred.Austin@juxta.mn.pubnix.net  Fred.Austin@sphinx.hughestech.com ... All taglines are busy... One will be with you shortly. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500041 Date: 01/04/98 From: FRED AUSTIN Time: 02:56am \/To: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL (Read 3 times) Subj: ACC Saga -=> Quoting George Jiri Opletal to Fred Austin <=- Hi George, FA> So lets sum up. No docs. Well, thats not a good sign. Not even GJO> Time will naturally tell us, whats the real motive is here. Since I GJO> haven not s seen the site myself, I tend to agree with you. Its not GJO> worth much without displaying the evidence. I does smell similar to GJO> the autopsy film, does it not? -!- FMail 1.22 Well I think the real motive is free publicity for a struggling computer firm. Selling is the game, all the rest is just to create interest. I find it odd that any firm would be interested in 50 year old docs if they were even accessible. Since when do companies pay their engineers to review old technology. Not likely. Companies usually look ahead not back. Also to assume if such were true, that the finest minds overlooked a discovery is a bit of a stretch. Well,time will tell, but I think Santilli rides again :)...............  Internet: Fred.Austin@juxta.mn.pubnix.net  Fred.Austin@sphinx.hughestech.com ... If anything can go wrong... NO CARRIER --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500042 Date: 01/04/98 From: FRED AUSTIN Time: 03:15am \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 3 times) Subj: Circumstantial evide -=> Quoting RON TAYLOR to PAUL ANDINACH <=- PA> -=> Quoting RON TAYLOR to JAMES ROOT <=- RT> In that respect, the witch hunts and the UFO phenomena bear a distinct RT> similarity. In neither case are the beliefs based on substantiated RT> circumstance. Rather, they were/are anchored on unexplained phenomena RT> which progressed to mass hysteria. RT> The citizens of Salem were so adamant in their beliefs that they were RT> eager to execute family members, friends, and neighbors in a most RT> horrific manner. Does anyone today not question the substantiality of RT> their actions. Hi Ron, Hmmm, I think you are treading on dangerous ground here Ron. I think is is not quite a fair comparison by dragging in Ufology. I think if you take a hard look at the world in action, you will start questioning the sanity of us all. Nuclear weapons, biological weapons,ethnic cleansing, yes,obviously we have evolved from our ancestors haven't we? Or have we. And since we let this kind of world exist, because basically we are all too busy to bother, than I question everyone's sanity and this has nothing to do with whether you or I think there are UFO's or not.....  Internet: Fred.Austin@juxta.mn.pubnix.net  Fred.Austin@sphinx.hughestech.com ... Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500043 Date: 01/01/98 From: MICHAEL TAUSON Time: 02:24pm \/To: JACK SARGEANT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: A surprize from the -=> Quoting Jack Sargeant to Michael Tauson <=- >> There are documents left over from World War I that are still >> classified. I wonder if "national security" will be invoked when >> asked about declassifying them as well. JS> Good point. ...And I wouldn't want to make any bets against it. Nor would I. "National Security" is a nice catch-all for anything the government gets twitchy about admitting to. Hmmm, sort of a junk drawer for secrets. JS> You are a real "blast from the past." Welcome back. Thanks, Jack. It's good to be back among friends. And best wishes for the gnu ear. Michael ... It sure is creepy having a friend whose eyes glow in the dark - Calvin ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: SoundingBoard, Pittsburgh PA (1:129/26) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500044 Date: 01/01/98 From: MICHAEL TAUSON Time: 02:38pm \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: A surprize from the Hiya, Ron! -=> Quoting Ron Taylor to Michael Tauson <=- RT> Methinks that maybe "national security" includes security from self RT> embarrassment. Seems them boys in Washington take liberties with RT> "national security" when it is convenient to do so. Oh, yea. Big time. As I mentioned to Jack, it's a kind of neat "junk drawer" for secrets. "I can't tell you that. National Security, y'know." "Um, well, *why* is it a matter of NatSec?" [I'm abbreviating 'cuz I'm lazy ... ] "I can't tell you that either. NatSec, y'know." Catch 22 at it's finest. MT> Oh, by the way ... I'm back again - hopefully to stay MT> this time. RT> Let it be. *smile* ... will do, my friend. Michael ... Whales are mammals. Mammals have hair. Shave the Whales! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: SoundingBoard, Pittsburgh PA (1:129/26) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500045 Date: 01/01/98 From: MICHAEL TAUSON Time: 03:02pm \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Skeptic's corner. -=> Quoting Ron Taylor to George Jiri Opletal <=- RT> A couple of years ago, someone on this echo explained how isotope RT> ratios would conclude the origin of any material. That person was RT> possibly Michael Tauson who has just recently resurfaced.... if so, RT> maybe he will address the question again. Wasn't me, but I do remember the conversation. Sort of. The gist of it was that on Earth, isotopes of the elements occur in known ranges - for example, for each iron atom (Fe56? - I *knew* I should have memorized the periodic table ), there is a known (and reasonably consistant) range of isotope occurances of iron as well. This is due to how the planet was formed and it's geological history. A planet in a different star system, while it may have had a similar history, was formed from a different cloud so the elements will be in different ratios *plus* the isotope occurances will be different. Any sample of a material will contain not only the base atoms but isotopes of the elements as well. So, if you take your basic stainless steel ashtray and analyze it, you'll find iron (carbon, chromium, et al) and isotopes of iron (and the others, of course) consistant with their occurance in nature on the world on which that ashtray was made. There is another point about materials from alien craft as well that maybe should go here. The elements occur in nature according to how they appeared in the dust cloud from which a stellar system was formed. As a result, we have a relative abundance of iron on Earth but things like Yttrium (I know that's not the right spelling *sigh*) occur rarely - hence the term "rare earths". This will not necessarily be true on a planet formed from a dust cloud that had a different composition initially. While iron would likely still be a high abundance element (as would others), the relative mixtures of the other elements would be slightly different and a would could wind up with a more abundant supply of what is rare on earth. As a rule, you use the tools and toys you have. We don't use much Yttrium (for example) simply 'cuz there isn't much to use. That would not necessarily be true on another world, which would give another clue to alien origin. Take the above as hypothesis ... simply 'cuz there is no way at present to test any of it. Michael ... Analysis of space signals shows aliens are the source of infomercials. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: SoundingBoard, Pittsburgh PA (1:129/26) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500046 Date: 01/03/98 From: MICHAEL TAUSON Time: 02:28am \/To: GEORGE JIRI OPLETAL (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: A surprize from the -=> Quoting George Jiri Opletal to Michael Tauson <=- MT> documents left over from World War I that are still classified. MT> I wonder if "national security" will be invoked when asked about MT> declassifying them as well. GJO> Indeed, however if you made a FOIA request for these WW1 docs, I get GJO> the feeling that without to much trouble the will be GJO> declassified. Some have been, but others they steadfastly refused to declassify. Um, let me timestamp that. This was as of a few years ago (1993 - '94) when an acquaintance of mine was doing some research related to the political climate then. The feeling he got was that it would be ... um, "imprudent" of the government to declassify them - at least at that time. However, with the current trend of apologizing to everyone for just about everything, that may have changed. GJO> On the other hand, as the CAUS case against GJO> the NSA demonstrated, U.F.O material is off limits. Does anyone have the exact wording of the NSA's response to this? Michael (who's just getting back into the swing of things here ) ... Windows '95 disks make great coasters ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: SoundingBoard, Pittsburgh PA (1:129/26) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 221 UFO Ref: F1500047 Date: 01/01/98 From: PAUL ANDINACH Time: 09:17pm \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: Weather Balloons Hi. Of course, we all know the arguments about UFOs and weather balloons, don't we? Carl Sagan once suggested that if we really want to know whether high-altitude weather balloons can be mistaken for strange flying vehicles (e.g. the alleged Mogul balloon that allegedly caused the alleged Roswell incident), an experiment is in order. His suggestion: Assemble several hundred high-altitude weather balloons. Fit each with some sort of tracking device, and release them over the U.S. Keep a record of where each balloon goes, wait a few months, and then start studying recent reports of UFO sightings in those areas. By comparing these reports of what you know are weather balloons to other UFO sightings, you can see if any of them might be weather balloons too. Just one problem, of course. Where's the funding going to come from? :) Paul ... "THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." - Death --- Blue Wave/Max v2.30 [NR] * Origin: The Perth PC Users Group BBS - 08-9497-7772 (3:690/650)