--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00010Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 06:36am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: 2 Re: what are we? pa -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Jim Casto <=- SB> I have suspected for a long time that our massive rebuilding after SB> World War II served a dual purpose. 1) It assauged part of our guilt SB> over dropping the atom bombs. Hmmm... I'm not sure there was ever a feeling of "guilt" (by the majority or even those in power) SB> 2) We needed to do it to avoid another SB> economic depression like the one we encountered in the thirties. I have to study up on the post-WW II boom as to how much of the overseas rebuilding contributed to local U.S. economies. We xertainly wanted to avoid the problems caused by the end of WW I where we simply made unsurmountable peace demands. SB> Perhaps because the US was built on land stolen from the Indians; and SB> to truly acknowledge that is to be forced to face a part of our SB> immorality as a nation. We must acknowledge that we, too, like SB> Germany, intended to commit genocide; and that we are also capable of SB> intense evil. As long as the Indians were, and are, the enemy, the SB> "Indian wars", and the Indian deaths, are justifiable. It seems to me that same philosophy applies to most any race, color or creed that is the "other". SB> of their lives; and not also be susceptible to feel shame and dismay SB> over our ancestors if they have done wrong. Part of the problem is trying to decide if we should feel "shame", "dismay", "guilt", "blame", etc. I remember hearing a talk by a well-known and respected Klamath elder who placed just as much blame on her own elders for "selling out" during the 1950s termination of the Klamath and their extensive land holdings. I suppose similar things could be said about the Trail of Tears or the Holocaust. It's not an easy task judging our elders and ancestors even with 20-20 hindsight. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00011Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 07:03am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: BIASED TESTS -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Jim Casto <=- SB> @MSGID: 1:141/355.0 17168085 JC> IQ tests are _supposed_ to measure the "Intelligence Quotient" of omeone > to cope within the culture wherein the test is given, are they not? Would > you give an "American" IQ test in China? The tests _have_ to be culturally > biased". SB> Actually, I suppose that's true. Although I *thought* they measured SB> the ablility of a person to learn, But isn't "learning" part of one's ability to "cope"? Plus, even if we are measuring the ability to "learn", it is _still_ within a _specific_ culture. SB> which is not the same thing as SB> ability to cope. As a matter of fact, people who can't cope at all SB> (because they are extremely schizophrenic, for example) may have very SB> high IQs. But does that mean they have a high degree of "ability to learn"? SB> Actually, I'm not convinced that the average American is middle and SB> upper class anymore; I guess we have to define "middle class". Income? (That would put my wife and I in the ranks of the "poverty class".) Lifestyle? (Judging by the neighborhood in which we live, that would put my wife and I in the upper- middle class.) No, I think just by driving around, I can see that MOST of the major Portland metropolitan area seems to be doing fairly well with a few pockets of "not so good". This seems to be true of most of the major areas (like Seattle, Los Angeles, Baltimore, etc.) that I have been to in last few years. SB> although I will concede that the average american SB> is still white. Even that won't be completely true much longer, SB> however, if the demographic projections are correct. I think as long as the demographics are allowed to be "self-identifying" and there appears to be a distinct advantage to being "white", that the majority of most of America will be "white". SB> I believe that SB> by the year 2010, whites are expected to make up less than 50% of the SB> population of the US, although they will still control most of the SB> money, and will certainly still contain more people than any one of SB> the minority groups isolated from the others. Yes. SB> college. Somewhere in my years of growing up, I realized that the SB> test makers were no smarter than the test takers, and therefore the SB> test takers really could figure out how to do well on tests. Actually, there are a lot of ways to learn how to take tests. Classes, computer programs, etc. are available for almost every SAT, GAT, SMAT, SPLAT (or whatever the heck they are , post office, etc. I took a class for a "Limited Electrician's License". The _entire_ class was "How to Quickly Find the Answer in the Book Because the Test is an Open-Book Test". There was NEVER any "practical" knowledge (such as how to wire a house or change a light bulb) in the entire class. But, I _did_ pass the test and was licensed to do much of the electrical wiring in a home for alarms, sound systems, etc. as long as what I did "met the code". JC> "The average IQ is set at 100; about half those that take the test achieve > scores between 90 and 110." Encarta 97 SB> will probably score lower. I learned this from a person who spends his SB> life testing kids, and evaluating the results. I questioned the SB> validity of IQ tests, and he admitted they are not all that reliable. Again, only a measuring stick attempting to measure something not physical, but mental. SB> age 6, and their IQs, as tested, at age 18. There was not a high SB> correlation between tested childhood IQ and adult IQ before age 12, I don't _ever_ remember taking an IQ test. But, I am reminded of a test I took in about the fifth grade that was _supposed_ to indicate "suitability for an occupation" when we "grew up". The test said I should become a social worker. SB> above 150 at age 6 tended to stay in those postions, although, even SB> then, there was not 100% correlation. When it comes to "testing" any mental process, I doubt that there will _ever_ be 100% correlation. College exams/degress are a classic example. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00012Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 07:13am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: homeschooling -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Jim Casto <=- JC> From what I read in the news around here, most of the objection to home > schooling comes from those that stand to lose monetarily if people are > allowed to home school (or charter school or private school). These are > groups like the NEA, teacher's unions, textbook sellers, etc. I don't SB> Agreed. Although text book sellers are beginning to come around, SB> simply because many home schoolers buy textbooks for their kids. I'll have to take your word for it because I don't shop for textbooks. I have to rely on what I read (not only here in this echo but books like "Lies My Teacher Told Me", NHS, etc.) that History textbooks are poor and that the majority of the market is school districts. Most of the better History profs I had did not use what I would call "textbooks". SB> It's not *entirely* their fault. Parents, the community, and the SB> neighborhood all play a part. But it is at least partly the fault of SB> the folks running the schools and the classrooms. I agree. These cases are intentionally a "wake-up" call. JC> Actually, an uneducated parent probably knows _more_ about what public > schools _don't_ provide than an educated parent who is "assuming" their > child is getting an education. SB> That's *very* true. SB> Yep! And the results are absolutely shocking! SB> On the question, "how many hours per day does this child watch SB> television?," six percent of homeschooled kids watched three or more SB> hours a day compared to sixty-two percent of public schooled kids. Doesn't "shock" me. I am a firm believer in "Kill Your Television" (except for about five worthwhile channels ) Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00013Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 07:17am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: homeschooling -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Jim Casto <=- SB> Well, I think it should do that. But I happen to think that education SB> should impart to children the joy of learning for its own sake. I suspect that the "joy of learning" has been pretty much abandoned by the "mainstream culture". I am simply amazed at the number of people where I work(ed) that given the company benefit of paying for furthering their education had some excuse as to why they couldn't do it. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00014Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 07:19am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: PRAYERS -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Jim Casto <=- SB> I've heard that the Indians in Central America were the greatest SB> agriculturalists in the world at the time Columbus started stealing SB> the Americas. They were, at the time, experimenting with, and creating SB> new varieties of, plants on a regular basis. Yes, growing different colors of cotton, for example. SB> Of course that doesn't say anything about the plains Indians. Many of SB> the northern plains Indians had, in fact, given up agriculture, SB> preferring a hunting/gathering life style. Some of those groups have SB> oral history records of having made that choice. Yes. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00015Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 08:02am \/To: ROBIN ARNHOLD (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: religion -=> Quoting Robin Arnhold to Jim Casto <=- RA> And energy. I don't happen to have much of either at this point in my RA> life. That happens. RA> Reading the newsgroups is actually more in the way of RA> recreation for me. If it seemed too much like 'work', I'd probably RA> move on to something that provided more relaxation. That's why I retired. Someone asked me once why I never became a professional musician. I said: "Because I enjoy it too much." RA> I hadn't heard that. Thanks for mentioning it. I understand Congress RA> is starting to debate the various changes to ICWA that have been RA> proposed. I wonder how the departure of this particular Congresscritter RA> will affect the outcome of the proposed changes, if it all. Hard to say. We'll have to see if someone else picks up her "cause". RA> I think the implication is that these particular children were judged RA> as lacking in the ability to learn. Sounds like a defensive mechanism kicking in. The etacher can't find a way to "teach", so it now becomes the child's problem in not being able to arn. RA> Certainly they were placed in a RA> special education class and not in a class to teach them English as a RA> second language. That's why school boards get "fired" or taxpayers grumble about the public education system. JC> Virtually every culture/country in the world has an "official" JC> language. RA> RA> And some like Switzerland have as many as four. However, just because RA> other countries have official languages doesn't necessarily mean that RA> the US should have one. Note that I put the word "official" in quotation marks. I don't know a lot about Switzerland, but I suspect that ALL documentation and ALL literature is NOT written in four languages. For example Encarta '97 says that the "more imnportant (literatures are) German-Swiss and French-Swiss". If all languages were treated equally "offical" ALL literature would be printed in ALL languages. Is ALL government business (in their Federal Council, Federal Tribunal, and Federal Assembly conducted in all four official languages. Encarta '97 also says that schools are conducted in the language of the local canton, but that students can learn other languages if they want to. That would be like the U.S. declaring Metropolitan Los Angeles a _separate_ "canton" and the offical language (used in the schools) would be Spanish. RA> Heck, I have trouble at work understanding our Spanish-speaking RA> customers. However, that's another can of worms, especially since RA> I've been advocating for some time things such as having our RA> publications in Spanish. (playing 'devil's advocate here) Assuming the Spanish-speakers in your "canton" are in the minority, which makes more sense? They learn to "cope" in English or the majority learn Spanish? Or just how many languages do you propose the documents to be printed in? Brings to mind our bus/mass transit system... There are a lot of Spanish speakers that ride the bus in/from my area. Should they be expected to know enough English to use this system or should all the drivers be bi-lingual. RA> Depends on what kind of test it is. My two years of high school RA> Spanish 35 years ago is very rusty, but I can more or less muddle RA> through nonspecialized Spanish. At the local supermarket there is a rack of magazines (some are national titles like "Time" and/or "Newsweek" (I don't pay that much attention so I can't give you the Spanish titles.) Also the local paper prints a Spanish insert, but I can guarantee you that the insert is not a _total_ translation of the newspaper. No cartoons, for example. RA> Ah, but in France they love it if one makes an effort to speak French RA> and will go out of their way to be helpful if one does make that RA> effort. That was _definitely_ NOT my experience. RA> Well, since Quebec is still a part of Canada and Canada is officially RA> a bilingual country, yes, they are obligated to have their highway RA> signs in both French and English. However, since Quebec thumbs its RA> nose at the rest of Canada and likely wouldn't use the pictoral signs RA> used in Europe, it would be a real good idea to understand things such RA> as 'lente' and 'arret' before driving there. Or simply avoid Quebec. RA> No, I don't think he did. He was basically a character in search of RA> an identity and died because he couldn't find one. The killer was RA> acting out of an identity. That's kinda sorta what Alexie says. BTW, the "discussion group" on another "service" I might have mentioned to you or Sondra has decided NOT to read/discuss "Indian Killer" as it might be construed to be too "anti-white" and "angry". They are going to read and discuss "Reservation Blues" instead. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00016Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 08:11am \/To: ROBIN ARNHOLD (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: PRAYERS -=> Quoting Robin Arnhold to Jim Casto <=- RA> And humming 'Take This Job and Shove It'? Actually, the _job_ was o.k. It was the uncertainty of the whole situation as there has been _massive_ "downsizing" in our business. RA> When our section chief RA> retired this time last year, he walked out the door humming 'So Long, RA> It's Been Nice to Know You' (and he moved to Mexico even though he and RA> Jeannette don't know two words of Spanish between them). My Dad retired to Guadalajara and couldn't speak enough Spanish to communicate with his cleaning service. However, he _did_ live in a "non-Mexican neighborhood" and could speak, read and write Esperanto. (Now there's a discussion for you... Advocation of Esperanto as the _universal_ language. ) RA> Congratulations! I have this sneaking hunch you are going to enjoy a RA> very active and busy retirement. Thanks. And the wife and I intend it to be that way. RA> I hope it's happy and rewarding. So far it has been. Still trying to get all the bugs out of my "upgraded" computer so I can get down to some "serious" retirement. (I have _got_ to get this room cleaned up and organized. ) Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00017Date: 06/26/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 08:16am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Religion -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Jim Casto <=- SB> Hey, I';m registered "Independent" too; and have been known to vote SB> for all sorts of people in all sorts of parties. The only thing I _don't_ like about being a registered Independent in Oregon is that we can't vote for the _candidates_ in "Primary" elections. However, I _did_ register Republican for the Primary where Dole, Gingrich and their cronies were running trying to push their "Contract" through the second time. Voted for any Republican candidate "most likely to lose" in the General Election as a sign of protest. Then right after the Primary, I re-registered as Independent again. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00018Date: 06/27/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 04:49am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Supreme Court Decision Anyone care to comment on the recent (Wednesday, June 25, 1997) Supreme Court decision to overturn the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993? The Act was passed to overcome a HORRIBLE decision by the Supreme Court in 1990 regarding the use of peyote. Now the Supreme Court has ruled that Congress overstepped its authority by passing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Whilst I agree that the Act has been used in some OUTRAGEOUS legal claims, _some_ form of legislative action is needed to overrule the Supreme Court's 1990 decision. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: EAY00019Date: 06/27/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 12:32am \/To: LORRAINE PHILLIPS (Read 0 times) Subj: BIASED TESTS LP>People with high IQ's can fall into 'intelligence traps'. For instance, >a highly intelligent person may be able to come up with a half-baked >answer to a question very quickly, at which point he or she stops >thinking about the question, satisfied with the answer and confident >that they'll be able to defend their position convincingly. This is why >highly intelligent people can be so shockingly out-to-lunch, why >intelligence has gotten a bad name, and why the English have the >expression 'too clever by half'. That's true. Also, sometimes brilliant people have more trouble in college than your more run of the mill student because they never learned how to study in high school. They simply picked everything up in class from listening to the teacher. Suddenly, there are classes where the teacher doesn't each you everything, and you're competing with other brilliant students. A young friend of mine is going to enter 9th grade at George School next year. George School is a highly expensive, highly elite, and very fiercely academically competitive boarding school. It costs $24,000 a year just for tuition, room and board. But a graduate of George School can go, with no trouble, to any university in the nation. She's going on scholarship. This is a welfare kid with absolutely zilch income. She's also astonishingly brilliant. Some of us who have befriended this youngster were brainstorming how to help her earn her own spending money. She's going to *have* to earn her own spending money, or she's not going to have it. I suggested we give her so much for every A. Someone said, "No. She's going to be competing with kids who are as smart as she is, and who have been to the top elementary schools in the nation, because their parents could afford to send them there. She's a product of public school, where she got all As with absolutely no effort. She's going to struggle just to get Cs that first year." I thought about it. And it's true. This kid is truly brilliant, and she has *no* study skills, because she never had to develop them. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a Babylon 5: Our last, best hope for TV SF --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.7 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0)