--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5E00000Date: 05/09/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 05:55am \/To: LORRAINE PHILLIPS (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: PRAYERS -=> Quoting LORRAINE PHILLIPS to JIM CASTO <=- LP> Maybe there's a cluster of alternative therapies, such as prayer, LP> touch therapy and pet therapy, that work because they allow us to feel LP> unconditionally loved. Well, I guess that doesn't explain to my satisfaction why an "alternative therapy" would work one time and not another, or why it would work for one person and not another any more than "standard therapies" work for some people and not others. In other words, if I were a "touch therapist" and my "touching" worked for one person and not for another, does that mean the two people were not "unconditionally loved" the same? Why are some people helped by placebos and others aren't helped by the "real thing"? All a mystery to me that I don't even bother to try and figure out. Kinda sorta like a discussion I'm involved in on another 'net. "What is the meaning of life?" For me personally, I don't think life has a "meaning". It just "is". -> ...I'm an atheistic agnostic. (And, yes, according to my dictionary I -> _can_ be both.) LP> So your position is that we can't know whether or not there is a god, LP> and you yourself do not hold the belief that god exists? That's correct. Except for one minor correction. "_I_ (not "We") can't know" Maybe you _can_ "know" a god exists. The other part of that is "proof". Someone may be able to "prove" it to you. It can't be proven to me. LP> I've wondered what we have in mind when we say 'god'. Actually, I'm saved from that "wondering" process. LP> It could be very LP> different for different people. The god that comes to mind for me is a LP> nature spirit that exists in everything for all time. If that works for you, it's o.k. by me. That also seems to work for Shinto believers, also. LP> A lady I admire LP> says 'god is people being good to other people'. And she is probably good to people. LP> I know that praying has brought me comfort and allowed me to be more LP> creative at understanding and solving my problems. One explanation LP> I've considered for this is that praying sends a message to the LP> unconscious mind, that 'God' was invented to explain praying, and that LP> religion was subsequently invented to codify it all. IOW, petitionary LP> praying could be effective whether or not god exists. Again, whatever works for you to solve what you perceive as "life's problems". I don't perceive any aspect of life as being a "problem". It just "is". Plodding along (stumbling?) works for me. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5E00001Date: 05/09/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 06:00am \/To: DENNIS MARTIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: what are we? part 1 -=> Quoting Dennis Martin to Jim Casto <=- JC> Uh, you want to be a little more specific as to where in the Constitution JC> find that slavery was ever _legal_ under U.S. Constitutional law? The firs JC> time I even _find_ the word "slavery" is in the Thirteenth Amendment that JC> specifically states that slavery is _illegal_. JC> JC> Perhaps it was considered by some to be "legal" simply because there was N JC> federal law saying that it was _illegal_. DM> Jim, Article IV, Sec. 2 provides some insight into the leagality of DM> slavery. Paragraph two states: DM> "No person held ins ervice or labout in one state under the laws DM> thereof, escaping into another, shall be in consequence of anytlaw or DM> reguliation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but DM> shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whome such service or DM> labour may be due. DM> (Please excuse the typos, but I was typing while reading my DM> encyclopedia. DM> This is printed in my 1952 edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. That Constitutional statement could apply to indentured servants or nvicts. DM> The term "held in service or labour" means that a person is no DM> voluntarily in service, (held). This may apply to criminals fleeing DM> the state, but the law is written in such a way that it's unclear as DM> to whether the "party to whom such service or labour" is a legal DM> jurisdiction, (as in an escaped prisoner) or a wealthy landowner. DM> This law is what made the Underground Subway into Canada necessary. DM> Otherwise, and escaped slave could have been protected by escaping DM> into a nearby "free state." Again, you make _my_ point when you say the "law is unclear". BTW, if you do some careful research other than encyclopedias, I think you might find that the Underground Railroad has been overrated. Shenkman covers this myth pretty well in "Legends, Lies & Cherished Myths of American History". DM> Also, Article I, Sec. 9 covers the "migration or importation" question DM> quite extensively. By importation, don't they mean "for slavery"? DM> This too, from the Encyclopedia Brittanica. You may have to find an DM> old one, as the new ones may have been edited, especially those on DM> disk. DM> The use of terms such as slave and slavery are not used, but the DM> similer, more "PC" terms are easy to understand. Note that Article 1, Section 9 reads: "The Migration or Importation of such Persons as the _States_ now exisitng shall think proper to admit, shall _not_ be prohibited by the _Congress_ prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight..." (emphasis is mine) So _who_ could be Migrated or Imported whether it be slave, indentured servant, convict, indigent person, etc. was decided by the _state_ NOT the federal government. You and Sondra have pretty much stated the pro-slavery arguments that were made in the 1830-50s forty to fifty years after the Constitution was written. DM> I'm not a supporter of slavery, just one who's a stickler for accuracy DM> when discussing this dark episode of this nation's history. So, in the interest of "accuracy", let me reiterate the original statement. The _original_ statement made in this echo was that "slavery was Constitutional". That implies _Federal_ law. _Not_ state law. I didn't say that slavery was (or was not) legal (or illegal) in some states. At the time of the Constitutional Convention(s) in some states it was and in some it wasn't. And it might depend on the exact moment in time. For example, the importation of blacks was declared illegal in Georgia in 1735. Within fifteen years, the practice was declared legal again. The point _I_ am _trying_ to make is that at the time of the Constitutional Conventions, the authors of the _Constitution_ were creating a _Federal_ document, not a _state_ document. They were _clearly_ trying to keep the rights of the states to make their own laws _separate_ from the federal law. The authors of the Constitution were "operating" under the theory of natural law" (as opposed to "positive law") as far as the _federal_ government was concerned. To clarify "natural" and "positive" law. " LAW. All the rules requiring or prohibiting certain actions are known as law. In the most general sense, there are two kinds of law _natural_ law and _positive_ law. _Natural_ law has been recognized since the ancient world to be a general body of rules of right conduct and justice common to all mankind. This concept grew from the observation of the operation of the laws of nature and their uniformity. _Positive_ law, on the other hand, consists of regulations formulated by the heads of a country or society. In many cases, _natural_ laws have been written into _positive_ laws by governments. The prohibition against killing, for example, is common to virtually all of mankind, and most nations have enacted laws against it." Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia. Copyright 1994, 1995 Compton's NewMedia, Inc. The emphasis is mine. Notice that nowhere in the Constitution is "killing" (the crime of murder) _specifically_ made illegal. I suspect, however, that at the time of the Constitution, several of the colonies/states had laws related to "murder". Therefore, at the federal level it was "natural" law, at the colonial/state level, "positive" law. -=-=-=-=- And to quote an abolitionist point of view from the pre-Civil War era: From: "Not So!" by Paul F. Boller, Jr. "The word 'slave' he [Frederick Douglass] noted, appeared nowhere in the _Constitution_, and if the document were to fall from the sky onto a land unfamiliar with slavery, the people there would never dream there was anything in it _sanctioning_ human bondage. He also pointed out that there were numerous phrases in the Constitution which were clearly _incompatible_ with slavery." (The [] and emphasis is mine.) The text by Boller goes on to cite the Preamble and several clauses Douglass referred to such as 'prohibition of bills of attainder', 'trial by jury', 'right of habeas corpus', 'due process of law', 'rights of security', etc. And also from: "Not So!" "The Constitution , in short, was a charter of freedom, not a slaveholder's document." So you and Sondra can argue the pro-slavery position if you like (I am fully aware that neither of you are advocates of slavery) but I guess I have to take the abolitionist viewpoint that slavery was _neither_ legal OR illegal under the _federal_ Constitution until the passage and ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment. At that time (1865) it had apparently become clear to the _federal_ government that the states were NOT able to adequately resolve this issue at the _state_ level, so a _Constitutional_ amendment was required. Hence, another of the Civil War issues: "state's rights". Note that to this day, slavery is one of the few "natural" laws that the U.S. government has seen fit to turn into a "positive" law at the federal level. There is _still_ NO _federal_ _Constitutional_ law _specifically_ addressing "murder", for example. So, were the authors of the Constitution _deliberately_ avoiding the issue of slavery? Were they _deliberately_ avoiding the issue of other "natural" laws? Was there some sort of a compromise made to get the Constitution approved at all? IF the authors of the Constitution HAD put a SPECIFIC Article in the Constitution outlawing slavery from the very beginning would it have been ratified? (It required nine states to ratify.) Note that according to "The World Almanac" the basis for the Bill of Rights was based on the Declaration of Rights of Virginia, written by George Mason in 1776. "Mason, a Virginia delegate to the Constitutional Convention, did not sign the Constitution and opposed its ratification on the grounds that it did not sufficiently oppose slavery or safeguard individual rights." quote from "The World Almanac - 1997" It's been interesting in my U.S. Constitution class to actually read some of the opinions set down by the Supreme Court and just _exactly_ what was being argued. We had one just the other day about a contraceptive law in Connecticut from the 1960s. The case, when it got to the Supreme Court, was NOT whether the accused were guilty or innocent. It was about the onnecticut law. And what was the issue? "Did it violate 'Constitutionally' protected privacy?" You would probably be amazed at the conclusions drawn by some of those learned men on the Supreme Court. (I like Justice Stewart's comment that the CT law was "an uncommonly silly law", but that doesn't make it un-Constitutional. ) But it is always clear in class as to what is _Constitutionally_ being argued and what the _actual_ crime might have been. BTW, in the CT case, the conviction _was_ reversed by the Supreme Court, but the CT law remained in effect as far as I know and it could still be in effect for all I know. As the Justices basically said... it's up to the _state_ to change a _state_ law. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5E00002Date: 05/09/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 05:54am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Another Culture Sondra: Awhile back I mentioned a picture in one of my textbooks about a culture that apparently allows the children to starve to death. From: "Cultural Anthropology" by William A. Haviland, page 49. The caption for a picture of a young girl, still living in the picture: "An Ik child in the unused kitchen of her family compound. Her parents were unable to feed her, and when she persisted in her demands, they shut her in. Too weak to break out, she died there; a few days later her body was unceremoniously thrown out. Such acts have become standard among the Ik." Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5E00003Date: 05/08/97 From: KAY NEWMAN Time: 08:57pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Prayers Hello Friends, I have to go into hospital for tests the next weeks. I have been having chest pains. I had EKG today and that came back all okay. I have to be at hospital on 5/15, for routine Echocariogram. Again on 5/20, for Thallium stress test. They are both scheduled for 8:45a.m. Dr. thinks it maybe stress but he wants to make sure. Prayers appreciated. God Bless. Kay --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: Kay's Place --Rochester, NY (1:2613/229.3) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5E00004Date: 05/10/97 From: PATTI JONES Time: 11:38am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Hello Sondra, What a welcome bit of info about Bill...that's really wonderful to know that he doesn't have to go for another check-up for another year. It's a beautiful spring morning here.....I got up at 0500 to let the dog out, and then went back to bed.......I just laid and listened to the Doves and the other birds outside the window . Figured I had better get up and get some stuff done. Started working last week for another temp agency. This job will last 6-8 weeks and they assure me that they will be able to use me throughout the summer to cover for vacations. The place I'm working is pretty kick back, and mostly older women at an OB/GYN Group. Three days at one location and then two days at another one.....all with the same doctors, but two different hospitals. I'm tired when I get home, but not stressed like working at the other place. Hope you and yours are doing well and enjoying the new life that springtime brings. Patti --- * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5F00000Date: 05/10/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 07:57pm \/To: LORRAINE PHILLIPS (Read 0 times) Subj: PRAYERS LP>My concern with studies such as the above is that medical science is >obsessed with measuring things...to the point where it forgets that >things that can't be measured by modern instruments might exist just the >same. Religion does not require medical science to assess its >legitimacy. I agree that religion does not need medical science to assess its legitimacy. But it makes life easier for those who "believe" if their doctors don't belittle them; and, for those doctors who need measurements to be convinced, these studies could be helpful. By the way, thanks a lot for doing this research. I have saved this stuff to a folder in my computer, which, hopefully, I will be able to locate when I want it. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a Let us have faith that right makes might. Lincoln --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.7 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5F00001Date: 05/10/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 07:57pm \/To: LORRAINE PHILLIPS (Read 0 times) Subj: PRAYERS LP>I conclude that no one with a physical illness should be discouraged >from praying or going on pilgrimages. (Nor should people be told to >pray or go on pilgrimages if these are not activities that make sense to >them.) I think this statement is terribly important: that ill, and dying, people need the freedom to follow, or not to follow, religious practices, as their own consciences and desires dictate. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a The poet lifts his pen; the soldier sheathes his sword.jt --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.7 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5F00002Date: 05/10/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 07:57pm \/To: LORRAINE PHILLIPS (Read 0 times) Subj: PRAYER CONT'D... LP>Hi. I just sent you a message on the subject of medical papers about >prayer. Re-reading the message, I can see that it looks like I was >going to message you a vast collection of medical abstracts, but in fact >I only sent you a selection. Actually, you did exactly what I thought you were going to do: send me a sample. I have an idea of how much data is out there in the world. Anything more than a sampling would probably be absurb. Thanks a lot for doing this. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a 12345679 x 8 = 98765432 --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.7 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5I00000Date: 05/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 07:52pm \/To: JIM CASTO (Read 0 times) Subj: Another Culture JC> "An Ik child in the unused kitchen of her family compound. Her parents were > unable to feed her, and when she persisted in her demands, they shut her in > Too weak to break out, she died there; a few days later her body was > unceremoniously thrown out. Such acts have become standard among the Ik." Absolutely awful! Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a In the dark night of the soul, it's always 3 A.M. --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.7 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E5I00001Date: 05/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 07:52pm \/To: KAY NEWMAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Prayers KN> I have to go into hospital for tests the next weeks. I have >been having chest pains. I had EKG today and that came back all >okay. I have to be at hospital on 5/15, for routine >Echocariogram. Again on 5/20, for Thallium stress test. They are >both scheduled for 8:45a.m. Dr. thinks it maybe stress but he >wants to make sure. Best of luck in the tests. My prayers are with you. let us know what the results are. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a We are outsiders in a land that is ours. Delores Garcia --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.7 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0)