--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00001Date: 04/17/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 08:48am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: What Are We? Part 1 -=> Quoting Jane Kelley to Jim Casto <=- JK> Thinking about my own family back on Long Island in New York which had JK> no animosity at all about Indians. What time frame are we talking about here? JK> Ever. One of the male ancestors JK> even married one of them. Cannot find any of the records of that JK> today as there were no reservations and no BIA then. Actually, as a genealogist and family historian, I can tell you there _are_ records from colonial days forward (not as many as we would like, unfortunately) but neither reservations or the BIA would necessarily keep those kinds of records (marriage) anyway. JK> As far as the Pacific Northwest is concerned, the Spanish got here JK> first and introduced both syphillis and smallpox. I think you'll get some argument about syphillis. Any idea what the early (16th century) word was for syphillis and it's earliest mention? JK> This is covered in JK> "Daughters of Copper Women" the tales told to a white reporter by the JK> Indian women about that time. JK> They tell of the Indian women who had intercourse with the Spanish JK> sailors so that they were easy for their men to kill, knowing that JK> they risked getting the dreaded syphillis. They were considered to be JK> heroines. That's the first time I have ever heard that theory. I checked the library and I see that "Daughters of Copper Woman" by Anne Cameron is listed as "fiction". That right there would be enough to make me somewhat skeptical of the book. I'd like to see the author's sources. JK> Even before that the Vikings came up the St. Lawrence and across the JK> top of the U.S. Their wanderings have been documented by those who JK> sought out the places where they have left their mark long ago. This JK> accounts for the blonds and red heads found in some of the West Coast JK> tribes. Uh, as North American Prehistory Anthropology and Archaeology is my Minor in college, perhaps you can give me your sources for the Vikings being much more than a few miles inland from any Eastern coastline? I don't mean to sound "nitpicky" or accusatory, but there is a LOT of what I will call "trash" regarding the reality of Ancient America. (People like Von Daniken, Hancock, Velikovsky, etc., for instance). But, I'm always looking for more information from reliable sources. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00002Date: 04/17/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 09:49am \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: no more from me -=> Quoting Charles Murray to Jim Casto <=- CM> No seatbelt laws were passed because the BIG 3 was going to have CM> to put air bags in all cars before a certain date and the CM> goverment said fine them put seatbelts in all if them now then or CM> else !! The fact that seatbelts were/are required by federal mandate to be in ertain cars after a certain date has NOTHING to do with the seatbelt-wearing laws. I distinctly remember voting on the issue TWICE in my state. It's just like maximum speed limits. The federal government can say all it wants to about the maximum speed limit even to the point of holding federal highway funds to the states that do not want to comply, but it is still up to the _state_ to establish their own maximum limit. CM> Allen Greenspan was never elected, he was appointed . And who appointed him? Represenatives _elected_ by the _people_? [For the education and edification of anyone reading over my shoulder... The chairman is one of a Board of Governor's that have been _appointed_ by the President (an elected offical) _with_ the _approval_ of the Senate (all elected representatives of the people). Greenspan has been the Chairman since 1987 which means he has served more than one four year term. Oh, and if Greenspan was first appointed to the Federal Reserve Board in 1987, we can thank(?) a Republican president.] I didn't get to vote _against_ Noot Getrich being Speaker of the House, either. Even the _thought_ that he could _conceivably_ become president of the U.S. simply by right of succession, terrifies me. CM> did you CM> vote for a higher intrest rate ? Nope. Not a "democratic" (one person-one vote) issue. Lot's of things happen in government that it would be _immpossible_ to have a purely "democratic" vote on them. (BTW, where is the law that says I have to _pay_ a higher interest rate?) JC> You keep implying that I am "happy" being a "slave" or opposed to JC> "reform". STOP IT. CM> Then stop playing games , CM> I said I dissaprove of the IRS and CM> the Federal Reserve not all taxes or all goverment. NO, that is NOT what you said (and keep saying) that I am objecting to. To paraphrase your statement: "If you are happy being a slave and paying taxes, then so be it." ^^^^^ ^^^^^ I have NEVER objected to any statement that you might have made that implies or states _your_ disapproval of the IRS and the Federal Reserve, taxes, or government. What I _do_ disagree with is your statements that all of the those are "unConstituional". You have YET to explain to me why. CM> I dissagree CM> with the idea of people being a slave to the goverment rather CM> than a active part of it . And, I'll ask you again. Do you or do you not get to vote at the ballot box on Election Day? Do you or do you not have the opportunity to "vote" with your pocketbook? And if you disagree with any part of the government what ACTIVE part are YOU exercising? Are you running for political office? Serving on election committees? Going to City Council meetings? Going to School Board meetings? CM> Who is kidding who Jim ? You would still need a place to live CM> and food to eat, you pay hiden taxes on all these things already. But I also get to choose what I purchase and where I live. If I didn't like where I live I could move. There is no law (or "Berlin Wall") that says I _have_ to stay in the U.S. CM> New laws are passed daily,that you did not vote for and nor did CM> you vote for your elected offical to pass them because I am sure CM> there are laws being written you have know forehand kmowledge of CM> and these laws take freedom away form you . Case in point : no CM> clild under the age of 16 shall ride a bycycle in the state of CM> GA. unless the are waring a helmet. Sounds like a good law to me CM> if you make the helemts :) Uh, I'm not from Georgia but unless Georgia is a LOT different than Oregon, the similar in Oregon _was_ voted into law by the State Legislature. _AND_ most of the laws passed by the Legislature (elected by the people, BTW) ARE_ public knowledege beforehand as they wind their way through the legislative process. BTW, I might consider a parent that would allow their child to ride a bicycle _without_ a helmet, a parent that does NOT have the best interests of their child in mind. The fact that _some_ parent's are NOT good parents is apparently the need for the law. CM> Though I am not opposed to good public CM> safty laws, the people were never ask to vote. That may be correct. And that's not the way our form of government works. JC> "There you go again" - Ronald Reagan CM> Sorry I did not vote for Reagan can't lay that one on me :) No, but I _can_ "lay this one on you".... CM> Now if CM> you are truely happy being a slave, ^^^^^ ^^^^^ It is a flat out and out LIE. I am neither HAPPY about the way things in government are going nor am I a SLAVE. And I show my displeasure at the store checkout stand (by not purchasing certain items), the gas pump (by using public transportation), and the ballot box (by voting Independent). JC> post an opinion. But if you are going to post _extremely_ _radical_ JC> ideas or unsubstantiated opinions, CM> You don't know me Jim and yet you call me a radical ??? Really! _Please_ pay attention. I DID NOT call YOU a radical. Your _posts_ and ideas are somewhat radical, however. You could be a conservative Catholic nun for all I know. You could be some lonely old man craving attention for all I know. Your P-O-S-T-S. - Get it? You keep saying "This is my final word", but it never is. See the "Subject" line. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00003Date: 04/17/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 09:52am \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: no more from me -=> Quoting Charles Murray to Sondra Ball <=- CM> simple answer , just do away with the IRS and the Federal Reserve CM> and turn all rights back over to the states . That sounds a lot like what some people were saying just before some states seceded from the Union. Sounds to me like you want to abolish the "United" part. And if we do away with the IRS and federal taxes, how do you propose we pay for national defense? And I can just imagine what the national highway system would be like if every state did their "own thing". Or railroads? "Hey, we're Oregon and we wanna have different sized tracks than Washington, Idaho, or California. (Come to think of it, that sounds vaguely familiar.) CM> Then you can move CM> to a stated that has taxes and intrest rates you like the best! Actually you can do that today. Charles Murray can move to any _country_ that has taxes and interest rates that he likes (and the form of government he likes), renounce his American citizenship and live happily ever after. Is this a great country or what? BTW, ever stop to think that the Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN _not_ OUT?) CM> Give all control of the Local schools back into the hands of the CM> parents who have children who attent those schools. But the education of the rest of my community is a _community_ responsibilty and concern. I don't think I would be real happy if all the parents with children in school decided to teach things I disagree with. Those children could grow up to be my community leaders and business people in my mmunity. CM> Use my tax CM> dollars on a local scale to help those in need in my communtity. That's what local taxes are for. Local taxes are voted into effect by the people. Local taxes are the biggest "sore spot" in Oregon right now. More Oregonians are complaining about State, County and local taxes than ever complain about Federal taxes. As far as I know, none of my local taxes go to the federal government. BTW, Charles, even if we busted up the Union and split off into 50 separate states, I suspect you'd have a problem of one kind or another with all of them judging from the amount of agreement for your positions you get on this echo. For instance, _I_ wouldn't move to Tennessee because they have a sales tax which Oregon does NOT have. DIDUNO... That Tennessee ranked 32 in order of the _amount_ per capita they pay into the federal coffers, but 21 in order of the amount they collect from the federal coffers? (1994-5 Fiscal Years) Tennessee got one dollar and twelve cents in 1995 federal money for every dollar they paid (1994) into the federal treasury. And one more thing... In some cases (marital status, income, etc.) a person does NOT even have to file a Federal tax return. Is this a great country or what? Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00004Date: 04/17/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 08:10am \/To: ROBERT SCOTT (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Shawnee -=> Quoting Robert Scott to All <=- RS> I am looking for information and history of OHio's Shawnee tribe. RS> I am a person interested in history, stories, legend, cooking, and RS> general life of the Shawnee tribe. -!- I guess I'll ask the same questions I always ask... Where have you looked already? Any particular time frame? Have you contacted any Shawnee tribe? Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00005Date: 04/17/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 09:55am \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: what are we? part 1 -=> Quoting Charles Murray to Sondra Ball <=- CM> so was slavery Sondra and many men died to keep it legal vainly Uh, you want to be a little more specific as to where in the Constitution ou find that slavery was ever _legal_ under U.S. Constitutional law? The first time I even _find_ the word "slavery" is in the Thirteenth Amendment that specifically states that slavery is _illegal_. Perhaps it was considered by some to be "legal" simply because there was NO federal law saying that it was _illegal_. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00006Date: 04/17/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 09:57am \/To: LORRAINE PHILLIPS (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: WHAT ARE WE? PART 1 -=> Quoting LORRAINE PHILLIPS to JANE KELLEY <=- LP> Hi Jane... -> Those settlers who had kinship with the earth and all that is on it -> still get along with the native Indians, both here and in Canada. -> Those who look at pastures and calculate how many instant urban slums -> they can plant there do not. LP> I'm not trying to turn the tables on you...but I have to admit that LP> some of those calculating types are native Indians themselves. I can't LP> blame them. This city is growing and growing and overlaps with reserve LP> land. The housing market is booming. Lorraine's post reminded me... NAs around here are either building on their own reservation land, recently acquired trust lands or lands that are neither. Case in point is in Lincoln City. The Siletz want to build a housing development for their casino employees (and anyone else that wants to buy in the development, I suppose.) The land is land just like any other developer's, AFAIK. The big issue? The Siletz _want_ it to become trust land but also a part of Lincoln City with all its services. They are asking that they be allowed to pay as much or more than their fair share of the bill, however. The point is: they are still developing land. LP> reserves has been given over in part to residential development for LP> sale or lease (the ad didn't specify the terms). When you have a lot LP> of land, why not sell or lease some of it? Land is worth a lotta money LP> here. Why not? Is there some reason why NAS can't be business people, too? In act, around here they will tell you that in _that_ respect, they want to be just like everyone else. That's one of the big issues/concerns around here. NA owned businesses. How to get them started, how to run them, etc. BTW, speaking of businesses.... The local paper (largest circulation in Oregon) has an annual restaurant "contest". The winner this year specializes in Native American dishes and the owner's wife is Chippewa. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00007Date: 04/21/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 09:34am \/To: LORRAINE PHILLIPS (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: WHAT ARE WE? PART 1 -=> Quoting LORRAINE PHILLIPS to JIM CASTO <=- LP> that's the usual story in this constantly-growing city. It makes sense LP> to sell or lease some lots on a reserve that's becoming surrounded by LP> city anyway. LP> Well, hey, however a native Indian does something is the 'Indian way'. LP> :) It would make sense to me. And they do on the Warm Springs rez. Also, there are a LOT of NA-run organizations around to advise the NAs on business such as that. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00008Date: 04/21/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 12:59pm \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: no more from me -=> Quoting Charles Murray to Sondra Ball <=- CM> seems we did just fine before the 1930 and the IRS came alongs CM> I even seem to remember a world war....... :) Just so everyone will know. The first income tax was collected during the Civil War in 1862. And income tax was made a permanent fixture of the American culture in 1913 with the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00009Date: 04/21/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 11:03am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: no more from me -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Charles Murray <=- SB> But before I agree to your way of doing things, I have a lot of SB> questions I want answered. If you want to convince me (or most other SB> people), you had better come up with answers, and not with evasions. No answers, only evasions? Sounds like a politician to me. Jim (who would _much_ rather be called a "radical" than a "politician". ) --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4R00010Date: 04/21/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 01:03pm \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: no more from me -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Charles Murray <=- SB> Question: do *your* kids wear bicycle helmets? If they don't, and there is a bicycle helmet law in Tennessee, then is Charles the criminal or are his kids? Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212)