--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3^00007Date: 03/31/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 03:02am \/To: DENNIS MARTIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Maybe you can help.. -=> Quoting Dennis Martin to Jim Casto <=- DM> It's a fairly large school, (5-6000 students possibly). However, I DM> don't recall seeing too many books on the northwestern peoples. Again, be sure you're looking in the Anthropology section, not History. DM> Wouldn't it be fun to learn more about them though? Actually, I think it's more interesting to learn about the Native Americans where I _live_, not where I was _born_. That's why my area of interest is the Pacific Northwest. The wife and I went on a three-day trip through the Olympic Pennisula. She commented on how neat it was to have her own "personal guide" to explain things as we went along the highway or stopped at various museums. After I retire we plan on doing more traveling in the Pacific Northwest and I find I get more out of it if I know something about the area and its people and history beforehand. DM> I'm familiar with that. Used it several times when I was taking DM> history classes and writing papers for them. (Instructors told me DM> I had a great feel for writing fiction about that time too. I wonder DM> if there's and correlation.) Could be. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3^00008Date: 03/31/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 03:04am \/To: DENNIS MARTIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: bread -=> Quoting Dennis Martin to Jim Casto <=- DM> Jim, I've found avoidence to be a classic tactic of people when they DM> can't answer a question. They often prefer "to do a little sidestep" DM> to avoid answering. That's true. DM> With regard to your second question, the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) had DM> a pretty good working communist economy going until the invading hoarde DM> from Europe destroyed it. It had it's severe internal problems, however, that had little to do with the Europeans. (And even then it depends on which Europeans you're talking about.) Ever read a book by Richard White called: "The Middle Ground: Indians, Empires, and Republics in the Great Lakes Region, 1650-1815"? It's way too complex a time period and the issues involved to simply say it was "destroyed by the invading hordes from Europe." DM> Actually, communistic economies were very successful throughout the DM> peoples of Turtle Island. That's true, but it is also true that some communistic economies were verrun by bigger more powerful economies. And it's also true that some peoples on the North American continent had very successful economies that _weren't_ communistic. Some of the peoples of the Pacifc Northwest are very typical "stratified, class" economies. DM> However, no economy is going to work in as large a scale as is now in DM> place here and globally, except for a true communistic economy where DM> all people work together for the common good. And that virtually confines communism to a small scale (population-wise). And even then, in the cases of most communes throughout history, it has proven to break down as human nature creeps in. DM> Why do you think Ben Franklin lobbies so hard for the Constitutional DM> form of Government we have today? His inspiration was the DM> Haudenosaunee "Great Law of Peace" which stressed cooperation between a DM> multitude of differing nations. The only problem is... What does the "Great Law of Peace" say about the nations _outside_ the Confederation and those nation's geographical territory? What does the "Great Law of Peace" have to say about the enemies of the Confederation? What provisions were made in the Confederation to hold it together? Why did two tribes decide to break away? All very, very complex. And White's book only covers one hundred sixty-five years and a relatively small area of the U.S. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200000Date: 03/29/97 From: PATTI JONES Time: 12:57pm \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Hello Sondra, The last earthquake I was in, I was at the hospital and was starting to get on the elevator. Since it was just a couple of years after my head injury, when the door opened and the elevator was moving inside, I thought sure that the vertigo had returned. Luck for me that it finally registered in my mind EARTHQUAKE !! and I quickly threw my foot into reverse, and got up against the elevator wall. I thought about going down the fire excape, but had second thoughts since it was an open stairwell. Instead, I stood there and looked over to the nursery where the nurse was standing in the doorway, while baby basinets were rolling all over the nursery. Soon the shaking stopped, and I insisted on going home to see the damages. When I got home the only portion of the hosue that was hit was the kitchen. It looked liek a couple of kids got on either side of the kitchen and threw stuff at the other one. The frige was open with the eggs, jelly pickles etc at the other side of the kitchen, and sme of the contents splattered on the cupboards. The frige was the stoping point for jars of peanut butter, jelly, glass containters of oil, splattered everywhere. I tried to clean it up with my plastic dustpan, but that didn't work at all. So I went to the grocery store and got a heavy duty metal dustpan, and proceded to scoop up the remains. It was very unnerving to say the least. I only visualized what it may have been like had the whole house been hit. I do believe that that was the beginning of thinking it was time for me to move. It was the first earthquake that really effected anything in my area. Now I live in an area where the largest earthquake has hit in the 1850's. The diary that my Aunt left tells about the earth tremor that caused cups to fall from the cupboard, and oil lamps that fell to the floor started fires. If I never experience another earthquake it will be far too soon. Hopefully by now you are gettting some of the springtime weather. It has been cold here and in the 50's and 60's during the day. I did see that back east had snow...hope it didn't get to your house. Patti --- * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200001Date: 03/29/97 From: PATTI JONES Time: 01:02pm \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Hello Sondra, Yup, I can recall my Mom raising us 4 kids afetr my Father moved out when I was 15. It must have been a terrible struggle for her. When my future Step-Father came into the picture when we were a bit older, I can recall him asking when if ever did she feed us kids meat. She promptly told him that she couldn't afford meat except for special occasions . He went out the next day to the meat packing plant and bought a freeze full of meat and brought it to her to fill the freezer with. He has always been a good kind man.....I lucked out as did my Mom and all my brothers. Patti --- * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200002Date: 03/29/97 From: PATTI JONES Time: 01:08pm \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: what are we? part 1 Sondra, We see the same thing right here. Parents that have transferred to the midwest to keep their children from being adversly effected by gangs and corrupt kids. Problem is their kids are just what they wanted to keep them from. I stay away from the community where a lot of transplants are. I slept with a gun under my pillow far too long while in la la land to start doing the same thing here. The community I live in is a bit backwards, and not many transients. Living in the woods though has its drawbacks also though. Seems people on the run are looking for just the right place to hid out or burglerize. So for now, I'll stay where I am, and be content in knowing when I accidentally leave the keys in the door over night, I have a darned good chance of waking up in the morning Patti --- * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (816) 361-7670 (1:280/76) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200003Date: 03/30/97 From: KAY NEWMAN Time: 11:29pm \/To: PATTI JONES (Read 0 times) Subj: Where are you? Hello Patti, Happy Easter. Hope you had a nice day. PJ> Well I have been to another interview today for a part time PJ> position, and the temp service has called me to work all next week, so PJ> hopefully something will come my way soon. Congradulations! I applied at Kaiser so something should come of it. Hope you wil hear from them soon. I'll probably go see Mike's Mom in the next week or so. Will Mike be there when you go see his Mom? I was thinking it would be hard on you if he was. Just thinking about you. (s) Funds are pretty tight right now anyway so the drive PJ> is just a waste of gas at this point. I should call her today and see PJ> how she's getting along. I know what you mean about money being tight. I had interview with TAD tempory agency last Thurs. They had co. that is hiring part time and they was going give them my resume but I haven't heard anything from Holly at TAD or Co. Tomorrow Bill and I have appointment to fill out papers and have interview at Burns Personnel INC., tempory agency. Have to be there at 2:00p.m. We have our resume and applications into The Employment Store and Metro. Both temporary agencies. Kelly also has our resumes and applications. They called that they received them but didn't set up any appoinment as right now they have send them downtown where they do interviewing and they would call us. NO call! Sorry to hear your friend is leaving for two weeks but glad to hear he will be back. I can see phone lights burning up from S.C. to you now.(VBG) PJ> How are you doing in getting unpacked etc. We are all unpacked and settled in. And how is Bill doing....what did the Doctor say on his last visit? Bill had a good check up lasted week when he went to his heart specialist here in Rochester. He hasn't been to NYC yet. He will be going middle of April don't now when as they haven't called yet. PJ> Seems like there's more outgo than there is income. Yep! I know what you mean. But I did get a pleasent surprise, they had overbilled me on the electric bill for two PJ> months, so I got credit and only have to pay 9something this month PJ> instead of the usual $126. that I have been paying monthly. At least PJ> the weather has turned warmer, and I can hold out for awhile before PJ> turning on the a/c which will help a lot in getting finances squared PJ> away I am glad you got credit on your electric bill and you don't have to pay so much this month. That is big help! Have a nice week. God Bless, Kay ... Kay Newman -- Rochester, NY -- KWNEWMAN@juno.com --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: Kay's Place -- Rochester, NY (1:2613/403.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200004Date: 04/01/97 From: DENNIS MARTIN Time: 08:19pm \/To: JIM CASTO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Maybe you can help.. JC> DM> It's a fairly large school, (5-6000 students possibly). However, I JC> DM> don't recall seeing too many books on the northwestern peoples. JC> JC> Again, be sure you're looking in the Anthropology section, not History. Hi Jim. I checked the computer at my public library, but they didn't have ny of the books you mentioned. I'll check the school library sometime this eek, when I get a chance. I did find a little info about the Northwest People in one of my class texts from several years ago. Mostly the article dealt with the Natives from Vancouver Island north, (Haida, Tlingit, etc.). JC> DM> Wouldn't it be fun to learn more about them though? JC> JC> Actually, I think it's more interesting to learn about the Native American JC> where I _live_, not where I was _born_. That's why my area of interest s JC> the Pacific Northwest. My thinking on this is that the creator put me in that area for a reason, and due to modern influences, I moved from there. It might help me to learn bout what the Creator had in mind for me, as much as why I wound up here in SoCal. Also, information about the Kumeyyai is much easier to find now. They are beginning to reach out into the community more, and information is flowing better. I still read what I can, when I see it. JC> The wife and I went on a three-day trip through the Olympic Pennisula. She JC> commented on how neat it was to have her own "personal guide" to explain JC> things as we went along the highway or stopped at various museums. After I JC> retire we plan on doing more traveling in the Pacific Northwest and I find JC> I get more out of it if I know something about the area and its people and JC> history beforehand. Sounds like a lot of fun. I'd love to visit the Northwest Coast again. I really felt more at home there than I have anywhere else I've been. Only een north of the Bay Area once since 1978, and that was a quick 3 day trip to Portland, and couldn't get away from my sister long enough to visit anyplace interesting. The day I left Washington, (I lived outside of Olympia), I cried. No job, nd one waiting here when I got back. (Shrug) Guess it wasn't meant to be. Take care, and talk to you later. Dennis --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: No Such Luck BBS, San Diego, CA. (619)583-5379 (1:202/810) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200005Date: 04/01/97 From: DENNIS MARTIN Time: 08:54pm \/To: JIM CASTO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: bread JC> DM> With regard to your second question, the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) ad JC> DM> a pretty good working communist economy going until the invading hoard JC> DM> from Europe destroyed it. JC> JC> It had it's severe internal problems, however, that had little to do ith JC> the Europeans. (And even then it depends on which Europeans you're talking JC> about.) Ever read a book by Richard White called: "The Middle Ground: JC> Indians, Empires, and Republics in the Great Lakes Region, 1650-1815"? It' JC> way too complex a time period and the issues involved to simply say it was JC> "destroyed by the invading hordes from Europe." Jim, Never heard of the book, but I'll look for it. Have you seen any literature on what life was like prior to the coming of the europeans, (traders, explorers, etc.)? Paul Wallace's book takes the issue from the founding of the Five Nations (Haudenosaunee) Confederacy approximately 1250 A.D. forward. Remember, european influences (diseases, nd trade/value economics, etc.) began around the turn of the century (1500) and spread through the native nations like wildfire. Imagine the damage done by disease alone in the 100-130 year span that The Middle Ground doesn't cover. In fact, if I recall correctly, anyone group who showed an interest in oining the Confederacy and living by their rules, was welcome to join, as the Tuscarora did approximately 1600. The time span you are referring to though was a time of radical change throughout much of the Eastern US, so how could the Native Peoples have avoided being caught up in it, especially when their lands were the basis for most of the conflict? JC> DM> However, no economy is going to work in as large a scale as is now n JC> DM> place here and globally, except for a true communistic economy here JC> DM> all people work together for the common good. JC> JC> And that virtually confines communism to a small scale population-wise). JC> And even then, in the cases of most communes throughout history, it has JC> proven to break down as human nature creeps in. True. In most cases I see, any large scale form of civilization tends to outgrow it's ability to prosper in about 600 years or so. Look back at the Romans, the Ancient Egyptins, the Mayan, Incan, and even the Chinese dynasties. In smaller groupings however, secular types of civilizations tend to grow and according the the food availability. The Hopi and Puebloan peoples have ived their way for over 700 years with little outside influence. Cooperation seems to be the key, and greed and arrogance are the welds which seem to fuse the locks and keep the keys from working. JC> The only problem is... What does the "Great Law of Peace" say about the JC> nations _outside_ the Confederation and those nation's geographical JC> territory? What does the "Great Law of Peace" have to say about the enemie JC> of the Confederation? What provisions were made in the Confederation to ho JC> it together? Why did two tribes decide to break away? All very, very JC> complex. And White's book only covers one hundred sixty-five years and a JC> relatively small area of the U.S. As I said before, anyone willing to live within the laws set down by The Peacemaker (Deganawedah), and live peacefully with the other members of the Confederation were welcome to join as the Tuscarora did. The "enemies of the Confederation" then faced the entire confederation's warriors, not just those of a member nation. I believe Deganawedah used the example of breaking one arrow to show the relative strength of one nation, then tied five arrows together and dared any of the assembled leaders to try and break the "unified" arrows. This showed that one alone is not as strong as many together. Ben Franklin used this same example in trying to sway the Continental ongress to adopt a "Confederation" style of goevernment. Also, the time period you are talking about is at the beginning and most active time of interference by the europeans. Constant battles between the English and the French over control of the area seperated the people of the region, and in the late 1700's the battle between England and the Colonials took over after the French influence had weakened. Take care. Dennis --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: No Such Luck BBS, San Diego, CA. (619)583-5379 (1:202/810) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200006Date: 04/01/97 From: CHARLES MURRAY Time: 04:36pm \/To: JIM CASTO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: what are we? part 1 -=> Quoting Jim Casto to Charles Murray <=- -=> Quoting Charles Murray to Dennis Martin <=- CM> simply I am for less goverment control and more personal (choice) CM> freedom ! JC> JC> Unfortunately, in order for _me_ to have _my_ personal choice that JC> _you_ NOT have _your_ personal choice and be allowed to drive an JC> automobile without proper licensing, paying a share of road JC> maintenance, etc. requires _more_ government controls in the form of JC> licensing, gas tax, etc. JC> To simply allow people to do whatever they darn well feel like, is JC> called: anarchy. JC> Anarchism: The theory that all organized government is repressive and JC> undesirable. JC> Jim I'm not anarchist Jim, I'm a realist and as such anti-socalist! No one was talking about anarchy we were talking about un-fair taxes in the name of freedom . Next time refuse the pay into the "voluntary" IRS tax system and see just how free you really are. Charles ... Save the whales , we'll eat them last ! --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: River Canyon Rd. BBS Chattanooga, Tn (1:362/627) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E4200007Date: 04/02/97 From: JIM CASTO Time: 03:17am \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: no more from me -=> Quoting Charles Murray to ALL <=- CM> Weary of being the bad guy here so I will say no more......... Maybe you should become one of the "good guys"? But if you wanna be a "bad guy" that's your Constitutional right (as long as you aren't violating some law) guaranteed and paid for by the taxes paid by the citizens of the United States of America. Jim --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: NorthWestern Genealogy BBS-Tualatin OR 503-692-0927 (1:105/212)