--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3G00017Date: 03/11/97 From: KAROLINA STUTZMAN Time: 10:27am \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: ? -=> Quoting Sondra Ball to Charles Murray <=- SB> Charles, is there any possibility that you are not 100% correct in all SB> your beliefs? CM> CM> I all truth and honesty , I believe what I believe . But your is to CM> prove me wrong not just to say your views is correct and my is not ! Charles, first, you might have sent this to me by mistake. There is no indication that this has anything to do with me. Secondly, if you did intend this comment for me, then, okay: I agree. You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0462 * Origin: << Don's BBS >> Stratford, NJ. USA 609-435-1663 (1:266/507) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3G00018Date: 03/11/97 From: KAROLINA STUTZMAN Time: 10:27am \/To: JIM CASTO (Read 0 times) Subj: capsules of plastic JC> What Sondra says is probably true depending on exactly _what_ JC> comprises "culture". SB> The DC is what most of the people in this country tend to believe. It SB> is the culture of the *average Joe* American. JC> But, I am convinced that the "average Joe American" is also "taught" JC> to believe that the "average Joe American" _is_ just that. In other JC> words, "someone" (the ubiquitous "they/someone") _says_ that the JC> "average Joe American" is _this_. (Again the all-encompassing _this_. ) Therefore if and individual who is NOT an "average Joe American" _wants_ to JC> be "like everyone else" they will _do_ "this". What gets confusing is JC> the "how". To me the "how" is the denial of personal accountability of the "why's" of our choices. By refusing to look at "why" we are buying into the "American dream", we can blame the end result on "them", not "me". It really works quite well for everyone concerned. Even for those that perceive themselves as not being a part of the "dream" and want to be. They refuse to look at "why's" of their choices also and prefer to blame "them". (g) JC> achieve that "dream". (Your house _must_ be bigger and better than JC> your neighbor's house, your car _must_ be better than your neighbor's JC> car, etc.) VALUES. The VALUE that I see as missing is the value of self. A married woman who values herself knows that she is a contributing member of society even though she doesn't work "outside" of the home, and appreciates herself. A married man whose wife "works" at home values himself if he knows that he is a contributing member of society even though his paycheck alone does not buy all the things his "average Joe" neighbor has, and appreciates himself. JC> The result is we now have both parents working to JC> get the BIG house with the STONE WALL and gates and the JC> family/community unit breaks down, etc., etc. Community is made up of families, and families of individuals. If the individuals make poor decisions and aren't willing to be accountable or even see their accountability, it breeds more of the same. JC> The "mainstream culture" of America is VERY conservative when it comes JC> to "change". It *is* difficult to find time for that when we are busy being "upwardly mobile". One must be able to acknowledge the "why" of our choices before one can make a choice about changing. JC> A classic example came up in the Canadian class the other day in a JC> discussion about the metric system. One lady had trouble relating JC> kilometers to miles. The prof asked her this question: "How long are JC> you in a foreign country before you stop calculating the monetary rate JC> of exchange?" In most cases, we decided it wasn't very long. JC> As a result of our "conservatism" (or maybe American's are stubborn JC> or "better than"?) we are only one of (maybe) two countries in the JC> world that have not adopted the metric system. How long would it take to get used to it? A couple of weeks perhaps? Sondra spoke about our human frailty to, from time to time, be unwilling or incapable of examining our belief systems. The same holds true for the belief systems we hammer into place about ourselves. Unless we can look at them, there is no hope for change. If we can't look at an issue inside us, we can't see its parallel outside of us either. ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0462 * Origin: << Don's BBS >> Stratford, NJ. USA 609-435-1663 (1:266/507) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3G00019Date: 03/11/97 From: KAROLINA STUTZMAN Time: 10:27am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: surpriss KS> Btw - Am in a position to order books and I need ISBN numbers. Life is such a pain! Every time I turn around my position changes! :( SB> ISBN numbers [.....] If you call the SB> Gloucester County Library, and talk with the reference librarian, she SB> should be able to get them for you. Duh! Thanks for reminding of one of the many services I can avail myself of. Will do! Even if it's one book, it's a start. SB> Hey, that's part of what you pay your taxes for. (g) Oh, goodie! (rubbing hands gleefully) Tanx. Later! ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0462 * Origin: << Don's BBS >> Stratford, NJ. USA 609-435-1663 (1:266/507) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3G00020Date: 03/11/97 From: KAROLINA STUTZMAN Time: 10:27am \/To: SONDRA BALL (Read 0 times) Subj: what are we? part 1 SB> home schools, many private schools, most rez run schools, etc. She saw SB> it as a threat to several groups of people. (It was definitely a SB> threat to Native Americans.) "rez"? reservation? ... I'll have an irreverant double, thanks ... ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0462 * Origin: << Don's BBS >> Stratford, NJ. USA 609-435-1663 (1:266/507) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3H00000Date: 03/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 10:47pm \/To: CHARLES TESTERMAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: what are we? part 1 CT>I have enjoyed reading your replies as you seem to have a lot >of knowledge. I guess that I need to quit stirring up the hornet's >nest as I download and fax a lot of this echo to a friend in California >and I suppose that I am way off topic. Whether you participate or not, I have a feeling this discussion is not over. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly. --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3H00001Date: 03/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 10:47pm \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: ? CM> CM> SB> Charles, is there any possibility that you are not 100% correct n > > SB> your beliefs? CM> Sure Sondra I could be worng about a lot of things, but most of my > political and religious views I am very secure in . I didn't just > jump onto somes band wagon and adopt there views as my own . I have > lived and seen with my own eyes thing I do not talk about in public > forum . OK, it was important for me to hear you say that. I do believe you have seen much you do not talk about here. That is probably true of all of us, even me, despite all the things I *do* talk about. But I needed to hear that before continuing the dialogue we are involved in right now. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a I was born because it was a habit in those days - Rogers --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3H00002Date: 03/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 10:47pm \/To: DOUG CARTER (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Hello DC> SB> Hmmm -- that *does* sound like a good cure. I wonder whether ailey's > SB> Irish creme would work. That's one of my favorites, you know? DC> It's a matter of degree, really... ONE is a 'cure', your suggestion is > ongoing 'preventative' treatment. Another alternative is IRISH COFFEE. > But again, purely for medicinal purposes... Actually, I realize this has slipped into an area that is potentially dangerous. I don't want any natives reading this board to take this conversation as permission to go out and get drunk. Alcoholism is a major problem for Indians; I've seen its destructive hand up close in my own family; and I mostly recommend that Indians don't drink. I've seen very few Indians who will take one drink and stop. It's mostly an all or nothing thing. Alcoholism kills. It killed my father. It has killed other people in my family, either directly or indirectly. I do, very, very rarely, take a drink. I never, ever take a second drink. Well, except at Jewish passover. I have close friends who are Jewish, and my family celebrates passover with their family every year. I drink the traditional four (or five) glasses of wine there. Otherwise, it's an absolute policy of mine never to have a second drink. I joke about the use of alcohol, but, for me, it's only joking. Except for that very rare social situation when it is almost impossible to avoid it, I don't use it. We do keep wine in the house, but that's because I cook with it. And I refuse to cook with "cooking wine." I cooked with good drinking wines. It makes for a better tasting dish. I also have an agreement with my husband, that if he ever sees any signs that I am misusing alcohol, he is to sit me down and talk with me about it, and I am to accept his word for it, and act accordingly. DC> Let's see, we've had a few Robins and others... they got snowed on hard > this week. There is some sign of life in the rangelands in the hills > around town... on the south facing slopes... or at least there WAS... > We don't have a lot of deciduous growths in sight, mostly conifers... > forecast is for a below normal MARCH... which might be good thing consideri > how much snow is on the ground in the hills... a slow melt is critical this > year... I've been watching the news and feel sorry for some of my friends > in W.Va and that area bounding it... also Ohio... The cold is returning. The artic winds are sweeping down from the north again. But I don't care. It is *still* spring, no matter what the thermometer says. It *can* snow in the spring, you know. (said as I stick my tongue out at the weather) (g) Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a GK> Quantum mechanics use extremely small tools. --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3H00003Date: 03/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 10:47pm \/To: CHARLES MURRAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: what are we? part 1 CM> My point Jim they are un-constitutional, where as the state passes > a law and the constitution dose not defend or up hold . I could use > another law , how about you have to show ID to but tobacco unless > you are over 26... but the law for legally buying tobacco is 18 yrs > of age . Unless you *look* over 26. That's because some 16 and 17 year olds *look* 25 or 26, and are, consequently, getting away with buying cigarettes. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a Don't let school interfer with your education. --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3H00004Date: 03/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 10:47pm \/To: JIM CASTO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: capsules of plastic JC> A classic example came up in the Canadian class the other day in a discussi > about the metric system. One lady had trouble relating kilometers to miles. > The prof asked her this question: "How long are you in a foreign country > before you stop calculating the monetary rate of exchange?" In most ases, > we decided it wasn't very long. JC> As a result of our "conservatism" (or maybe American's are stubborn or "bet > than"?) we are only one of (maybe) two countries in the world that have not > adopted the metric system. This "cultural thing and the metric system is interesting. In a RIME writers conference I belong to, there are some people from South Africa, who often discuss the weather. ("It was 33 last night; and we had trouble sleeping"). Some Californian said that she couldn't understand them unless they tranlated their tempertures into fahrenheit. I told her I thought we were only the only country in the world that did not use the metric system, so *we* should do the translating. Someone then said that the US measures system is *his* cultural heritage; and he didn't feel he should change it. (probably a jibe at some of *my* cultural heritage things -g-) It's amazing how closely tied to our system many of us are. And writing this made me realize something. I think I have more serious dialogue about Indians on the poetry and writers conferences I belong to than I do on this conference. I wonder why. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a Treknobabble, n: nonsense words that solve a problem. --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 212 INDIAN AFFAIRS Ref: E3H00005Date: 03/11/97 From: SONDRA BALL Time: 10:47pm \/To: JIM CASTO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Cowlitz Gain Recognit JC> In a way, this kinda sorta refutes the "U.S. government is all bad." syndro > Or "The big, bad BIA 'lost' all the money." It looks like in this particula > case the "money" was there all along, it just took a long time and a lot of > work to get it. Another interesting aspect of this case... The money was NO > "awarded", "put into a trust fund", etc. as the result of a treaty. Why _wa > the money "awarded"? Benevolent government? The US government is a hodgepodge of good and bad. When it sterilized Indian women in the seventies, it was being bad. When it put this money aside, it was being good. Sometimes I think it would be easier to deal with a system that was all a villian, or all benevolent; but I guess the reality is that that is not how human institutions , or human individuals, work. JC> And as I taxpayer, I resent the fact that the "government" wasted a lot f > _my_ money by not simply recognizing the dept and paying it sooner. One > could speculate where (economically speaking) the Cowlitz would be today if > $1.5 million had been given to them twenty years ago. One can put ogether > all kinds of scenarios. That would be worthy of a poem, or story, or novel. I wonder if there are any Cowlitz thinking of writing it. I don't think *I* should write it. I don't know enough about the Cowlitz to do it justice. Sondra -*- SLMR 2.1a I don't want you to think I'm not incoherent. Ross --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: the fifth age - milford ct - 203-876-1473 (1:141/355.0)