--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBT00003Date: 07/22/95 From: ROGER BROWN Time: 12:24pm \/To: BOB HIRSCHFELD (Read 3 times) Subj: Ranting If I am in error, I will apologize in advance, but I believe you responded to a message I ssent to Barb Murphy. I intended to respond to it, but it is off the que now. It was not my intent to be ranting. Barb asked me if I had been abused. My response in part was to ask for her criteria for determining if abuse had occured. If she had responded, I intended to point out the problem in determining what was abuse. The first principle of Bhudism is that all life is sorrowful. There is a sound reason for stating that as a First Principle. We live at the expense of other organisms and other humans. There are injustices that are structural and those that are personal. My question, "Was I abused when forced in to the Army for two years and trained to kill people for your protection" raised such a distinction. My answer to this would be no. This is structural injustice, not the result of an individual act. Commiting child abuse, and falsely accusing someone of child abuse are both individual acts and I would argue are abuse - the same class of abuse. Eliminating structural abuse, such as institutional and institutionalized child abuse are collective decisions that have to be made. Falsely accusing someone of child abuse, even if wide spread, is still an issue of individual responsibility. ANY individual falsely accusing someone child abuse should be held accountable. I like the Hungarian solution. If someone falsely accuses anyone of a crime, they recieve the same sentence the falsely accused individual would have recieved if he had been guilty. I hope this corrects any misperceptions./ --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: Conway PC Users Group BBS 501-329-7227 (1:399/4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBT00004Date: 07/22/95 From: HANK BALL Time: 07:20pm \/To: JOE SAGER (Read 3 times) Subj: Civil Suits & Social Services Joe of 1:106/6003.0, writing to Hank typed: JS> I just noticed you're from Texas also have you had bad JS> experiences with CPS? Yes. My wife was accused of shaken infant syndrome in the case of an infant she was babysitting...The particulars include several hundred pages of a kangaroo court trial in which the DA, a doctor who never saw the child (and had only seen 3 cases of shaken infant syndrome in his career), and the CPS found a way to convince a jury to convict her with _no_ evidence except medical speculation...In this case, the doctor said that the incident HAD to occur at exactly a particular time...We all know that type of testimony is BUNK...He also said that the child would never walk, talk, etc...ALSO a lie because he attends public schools now...We speculate because of the unusual happenings that morning (the mother brought the baby over earlier than usual that day and he was unusually sleepy) and the fact that the parents fought all the time, we feel that something happened at the parents' house that morning and my wife was used as a scapegoat...The mother was a nurse for the doctor that testified and the grandmother is really good friends with the DA. As far as CPS, they were not in any way objective and had decided that she was guilty even before they had any idea what had happened...In an interview the same day of the incident and even before the police got involved, the CPS worker told my wife "You may as well go ahead and confess, we know you did it!" Yea, right. I saw right then how they work...I also got first hand experience with the Texas judicial system...I've been a Texan all my life and proud of it until now! I could go on, but it's useless now. She did 2 years of a 10 year conviction and has been out on parole for 3 years with no trouble...She is a successful business owner and respected in the town where we now live and ALL of our friends, new and old, know her background. Our kids were able to stay with us and we have not ever had any more trouble out of CPS, but I feel it is only because I had (some) pull at the governor's office in dealing with them... Sincerely, Hank Ball --- timEd-B11 * Origin: Hank's Point - Granbury, TX - (1:130/40.9) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBT00005Date: 07/22/95 From: ALLEN COWLING Time: 11:57pm \/To: DON FROSTY (Read 3 times) Subj: Case Update DF>Well, that's it. Court is August 2nd, from 10 am PST until we finish DF>sometime in the afternoon. Wish us luck. Hi Don. I read your update just after writing to Valerie and needless to say, my heat goes out to you. August 2nd is court? Let us know wht happens. You guys are in our prayers. Allen --- GEcho 1.00 OLX 2.1 TD Chicken heads are the chief food of captive alligators. * Origin: Cowling BBS * Jackson, MS * (601) 373-7495 (1:3632/57) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBT00006Date: 07/22/95 From: ALLEN COWLING Time: 11:48pm \/To: VALERY FROSTY (Read 3 times) Subj: Civil Suits 1/2 1/2 VF>Hi Allen, VF>About file suits against social services for civil rights violations ... VF> AC> I am told it's possible and we certainly want to follow that option, VF> AC> but the complaints I was referring to were not civil complaint, but VF> AC> rather complaint complaints because of their actions. Hmm, let me clarify on the complaints. We are filing two (2) with the local bar association; one against the attorney who represented my client and the other against the asst DA who prosecuted the case. The DA, knowingly, failed to respond to discovery in our case and, HOPEFULLY, that will remove his umbrella immunity and allow us to file a civil action against him. I was told that was not possible; however, Milton Silverman ripped away at a prosecutor's immunity in a case in California and got a $4,000,000.00 verdict against the "DA" and therapists, so it can be done. Our complaint against DHS will be filed with national and also with an organization I have learned is currently "checking out" various DHS involvements in cases. In our case, DHS was nothing but an arm of the prosecutor and we are simply laying the groundwork for hopefully what will be a civil action. We are also filing complaints with the local and American Psychological Association; again, laying groundwork for a civil action. I was VERY fortunite in our case to have found persons who could educate me as to proper steps. Daubert waas a major decision in that the court said there will be no expert testimony unless there is scientific data to support it and there certainly is no scientific data to support this psychologists EXPERT OPINION that two girls were sexually molested when the two girls testified they were not. I got VERY lucky in my research here and found two specific Missisippi Supreme Court decisions that followed DAUBERT and in each case, reversed because of the allowed testimony of an EXPERT. I also got very lucky and found two other cases where the psychologist who testified in our case testified in another and was all but destroyed by the judge who told her she and her testimony reminded him of "Old Salem" (The Witch Trials). According to everything we have found, we have excellent actions against the attorney who represented my client and the psychologist. Hopefully, we will also be able to file against DHS and the DA. OOPS, Almost forgot. We also have an excellent action against the CASA worker assigned to the case who "Instructed the mother to CHANGE CHURCHES" because she, the CASA worker, did not want the "girls" exposed to my client's FATHER. The CASA worker, who has less training than a baboon, said CHILD MOLESTING is HEREDITARY so the girls needed to STAY AWAY from my client's father! That was only 1 MINOR example of "stomping" on one's civil rights. VF>Big Laugh Here! I can no longer talk about "our" case due to a g_g ord_r, VF>but I have a "friend" with a case "exactly" like ours and she has OVER 40 VF>complaint complaints of state policies and procedures that were violated! VF>The Administration For Children and Families in Washington D.C. finally VF>called CPS and asked about my "friend's" case, but they really don't have VF>the power to do anything. The California Children's Operation Bureau is VF>also going to investigate her case. I am hoping for a successful outcome VF>on it, and so far it sounds very, very favorable. :) That may be the same group I am filing with, or at least one of them . I had hopes they had a little power. VF>I'd be very interested in seeing these lawsuits (that were won) if you VF>have the liberty to share them. I'd be willing to reimburse whatever osts VF>there were too. There are a lot of people here with different situations VF>who could file multiple lawsuits (including my "friend") and information VF>that could help them win would be a feather in our caps! Well, we filed our supplement to the appeal and 3 weeks later it was returned in a box with no letter or explanation to my client in prison. His father went to the supreme court the following day was was told they could not accept it because HIS ATTORNEY HAD NOT FILED A MOTION with the court asking to be dismissed. We are filing a complaint with the bar and then re-submitting the brief. With everything going on right now, I expect it will be about October before we actually begin anything lawsuit wise. VF>I had no idea how many people were being railroaded until it happened VF>to a "friend" of mine as well as to the numerous friends I have met. Yea, I know. It really has gotten WAY out-of-hand. This is about the seventh one I have really been involved in and I guess I just have had enough of these self-rightous individuals who claim to be "helping the children" when all they are doing is destroying them. VF>I really feel bad for your client and if there is anything I can do VF>I certainly will. Thanks a ton and the same here as far as "your friend's" problem goes VF>I too believe your client is innocent. Well, I assure you, if I did not believe with every ounce of belief I have that he was innocent, I sure would not have gotten so wrapped up in this. It's real hard for me to visualize a person, no cares at all one day, and then sitting in prison the next and for something he never did. He has been there one year; one year gone from his life he can never get back and while, by other's standards a year is not that long, to me, it's a lifetime. VF>The railroad jobs though just make me as mad as h*ll. I have never seen, in 25 years of practice, the railroad job they did in this case and no matter what happens, it will never make up for what he and his family lost. VF> That REALLY made me laugh! I'm no attorney either, although more than VF>once other attorney's have thought I was. A friend of mine is a District VF>Attorney and has been urging me to go to law school. With all the knowledge VF>I'm gaining through these experiences, I have decided I might as well do it. VF>It's not exactly what I wanted to do but I think I would be good at it. VF>There are many people out there who need lawyers that will believe in them VF>and fight like h*ll for them regardless of whether or not they can pay for VF>it. Don and I plan to use this as our contribution to "the cause". Don VF>will do the investigative work and I'll do the legal work. Although here VF>lately, I've had a hand in some investigative work as well. There seems VF>to be quite a lot of relatives working together in different capacities on VF>the same cases (judges, social workers, foster parents and law enforcement). VF>Now, I don't know about you but that sounds a little shady to me! t's VF>also interesting that most of the juvenile court judges were "appointed" o VF>their positions by other politicians that are related to the appointee. VF>Hmmmmm. Something is definately fishy in Contra Costa County, California! That is fantastic; the law school. We certainly need attorneys who honestly care about what they are doing and I cannot think of a better one that one that had to actually walk in the same shoes as some they may defend. As a team, you and your husband could really make a DENT together and I for one really hope it materializes. VF>I would have to guess that I have probably over 500 pages of documentation VF>and there is a publisher in Tennessee that is waiting for the book. VF>I'm a stickler for detail too, and what hasn't been written down has been VF>recorded in other forms. Hey, can I get you to write a supplement VF>for our appeal? (Just kidding! We do have an appeal in the process ough.) Well, if you ever want to see our report or supplement, let me know and I'll set it up so you can call our BBS and download it. What I tried to do in the Supplement to the lawyer was the same thing the lawyer did to my client; in otherwords, (bend over) . >>> Continued to next message --- GEcho 1.00 OLX 2.1 TD This tagline stolen by Off-Line Xpress! * Origin: Cowling BBS * Jackson, MS * (601) 373-7495 (1:3632/57) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBT00007Date: 07/22/95 From: ALLEN COWLING Time: 11:48pm \/To: VALERY FROSTY (Read 3 times) Subj: Civil Suits 1/2 2/2 >>> Continued from previous message VF>I've been hearing a lot about the DAUBERT decision lately. It must be a VF>pretty good one. I'll have to look into that one. It doesn't apply in VF>our case, but I know of others where it may. I commented earlier about DAUBERT, but as I understand it, DAUBERT basically turned expert testimony upside down and personally, I think it's the best ruling to appear in a while. Think about it. A person is accused of sexually molesting a child. The state has a psychologist as does the defense. One says the child was molested and the other says, not. Where is the scientific proof? There is noe and it becomes a question of "Who the jury likes best." Something wrong with that system! VF>(sarcasm mode on) How wonderful! (mode off) Get this, my "friends" case VF>supposedly involves sexual abuse, and her family has the backing of the VF>local MASA representative for their case. Fantastic. I guess we would to except for the fact they appeared to be on the prosecutor's payroll . VF>Oh brother! (sarcasm mode on again) I guess this makes me a child olester VF>too then. My father definately was a child molester and two of my sons VF>were accused of it! I guess there's no doubt about it now. I MUST be a VF>child molester! Perhaps I'm doing it in my sleep and even the victim is VF>unaware of it. (sarcasm mode off now) I really wonder what line some of VF>these people were standing in when brains got passed out. Well, most of them thought the good Lord said "RAIN" instead of brains, and ran for cover. Hey I just noticed your tag line; Pittsburg, CA. Is that where you are from. If so, I was in your area not long ago and met some of the most fantastic people. We started in San Diego (the grand jury) and kind of worked our way up-state. Some of our best help came from San Diego. Met a woman named Carol Hopkins who served on the grand jury during their studies into the false accusations of child abuse. She had a wealth of information and a world of great contacts. You could not meet a finer woman anywhere. Well, I've all but turned this into a short BOOK , so I'll let you go, but good luck and I'll be praying for YOUR FRIEND! . Hang in there and never give up the fight. It was great hearing from you and tell your husband hello. --- GEcho 1.00 OLX 2.1 TD This tagline stolen by Off-Line Xpress! * Origin: Cowling BBS * Jackson, MS * (601) 373-7495 (1:3632/57) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBT00008Date: 07/23/95 From: ALLEN COWLING Time: 12:14am \/To: VALERY FROSTY (Read 3 times) Subj: Civil Suits 2/2 VF>I love it! Don't tell me, you didn't inform her that she was being taped, VF>did you? It's amazing what these people will say when they don't now VF>their statements are being recorded. Somehow or other, my "friend" just VF>happened to tape the social worker admitting that her child would be safe VF>in her home , yet the same social worker is saying otherwise in his VF>written recommendation to the court. Now isn't that interesting??? :) Well, I didn't see page 2 when I stopped the other response . No they had no idea they had been taped, but they sure do now; they just don't know to what extent and the amazing thing was that they were never heard from again. Wonder what they could be worried about . VF>That is Absolutely Outrageous! One of my "friends" sons pleaded no ontest VF>to two misdemeanors rather than take a chance of being falsely convicted and VF>spending 8 years behind bars. My "friend" and her husband aren't happy with VF>this but fell that it may have been in his best interest. The charges ill VF>be dismissed and erased from his record in two more months though when his VF>informal probation is over. Charges against the other boy were dismissed. VF>I hate plea bargains. I understand the purpose of them but too many innocent VF>people end up admitting to things they didn't do to protect themselves rom VF>the consequences if they are falsely convicted. Basically, it's amounts o VF>innocent people being wrongly convicted and given extremely long entences, VF>while the guilty cop a plea and walk away. This is insanity! Well, I can understand a plea bargain under some circumstances, but not something like the sexual abuse of a child. There are many cases where the abuse it true and I won't even say what I think their punishment should be, but how in good faith can any prosecutor "plea bargain" something as serious as sexually abusing a child away. If he had no case, he should not have filed it, but to file and then a plea AT TRIAL to me is inexcusable. Although, I don't know why it would be considering the fact that as the girls were being taken to trial by a DHS worker, that worker told the girls the DA instructed him to ask them if they were saying they had not been molested because they were afraid their father would go to jail and if they would go ahead and tell the "TRUTH" and admit he had molested them, the DA promised their father would "NOT SPEND ONE DAY IN JAIL and WOULD GET THE HELP HE NEEDED!" VF>Oh, I do hope it is successful. These people really need to start being VF>held accountable for their actions. If there is anything I can do to elp, VF>please let me know. I'd love to see the cases where the DA's immunity VF>was broken, especially the suit that won $4,000,000! About the DA running VF>for Appeals Judge, it seems that about the only ones who DO care about the VF>children are their families, and of course, the legal system won't believe VF>them. This is such an injustice to our children, to families, and to the VF>American dream. Let us know what happens with the FBI deal. I've heard f VF>people going to the FBI with things like this, but I don't how successful VF>it is. This will be very interesting! Well, the $4,000,000.00 lawsuit was in San Diego. Milton Silverman was the attorney and Dale Akiki was the client as I understand it. VF>Thank you so much for your support. It is very welcome. About the Swan VF>case, I too have high hopes for the Swan case and am very interested in VF>it's outcome. Your client and his family are in our prayers as well. If VF>you get back out this way (San Francisco area) our door is always open VF>and you are welcome to stay here if you wish. (No, I don't tell everyone VF>that, but it seems to me that as long as the good guys are helping the ood VF>guys, then things will have to get better.) Of course, you would have to VF>put up with us, a bunch of kids, a bunch of cats, and our dog, but VF>we would consider it a privilege to help in some way. Thanks fo the offer and I wish I had know where you were while we were out there. I would love to have met you. I guess Bill Swan stopped monitoring this conference. I left him several messages and never got a response. I talked with him on the telephone just prior to making the west coast trip and planned to see him, but had to get back here faster than planned to deal with the appeal. I sure hope he has not just given up. He and his wife had already spent quite a while in prison and have been fighting this for 9 years or something in that neighborhood. He seems like a fine man and harly a day goes by that I don't think about him. Well, I'll close part 2 . Guess I should have put all this in chapters . Hang in there Allen --- GEcho 1.00 OLX 2.1 TD I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it? * Origin: Cowling BBS * Jackson, MS * (601) 373-7495 (1:3632/57) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBU00000Date: 07/22/95 From: HANK BALL Time: 11:55pm \/To: DON FROSTY (Read 3 times) Subj: Case Update Don of 1:161/19.0, writing to All typed: DF> Well, that's it. Court is August 2nd, from 10 am PST until DF> we finish sometime in the afternoon. Wish us luck. Don, I've posted to Val a couple of times and received replies...Good Luck and our prayers are with you... Sincerely, Hank Ball --- timEd-B11 * Origin: Hank's Point - Granbury, TX - (1:130/40.9) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBU00001Date: 07/23/95 From: GEORGE HERO Time: 11:02am \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: For your info... ======================================================================== Forwarded here by George Hero (1:396/17.27) ======================================================================== Area: NETMAIL Date: 22 Jul 95 19:57:23 Private From: tgrant@COMTCH.IEA.COM (396/17) To: George Hero (396/17) Subject: Wenatchee [1] ======================================================================== bigmuddy.jaxx.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA20577 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 19:59:22 GMT AA20577@bigmuddy.jaxx.com> (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0720; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 20:56:43 -0400 From: Tom Grant Subject: Wenatchee The first trial of the so-called Wenatchee child sex ring got underway on Wednesday of this week. Honna Sims, a Sunday school teacher at the Pentecostal Church in East Wenatchee, is being tried on charges of child rape. She is accused of taking part in a child sex ring run by Pastor Roby Roberson. It is alleged to have involved 15-20 adults and about as many children. (The charges on the Wenatchee side of the river separating the two towns are more expansive, roping in a couple dozen more people.) The first witness was 13-year-old girl who said Sims had assaulted her in the bathroom of the church once, and a second time in the church office in the company of several other adults. She admitted fabricating some previous stories about people sexually assaulting her, and she said she had threatened several other people with charges of sexual assault. The second witness was an 11-year-old girl who said Sims had taken part in sex ring activities on Fridays and Sundays in the basement of the church. This child is the foster daughter of the chief investigator in the sex ring cases, Detective Robert Perez. She says Pastor Roberson would hold prayer sessions upstairs with singing and sermons, then order everyone to go into the basement and undress. They would all pile their clothes in a corner, then the adults would take turns having sex with all of the children. The defense tried to show that the little girl seemed to have no knowledge of the sex act. She could not describe a sexual position, the could not describe an erection, she could not describe ejaculation, she could not describe any unusual breathing or smells, and she said no one ever said anything during these orgies. She described the man laying on top of her would always have his arms at his side, and that she had her arms at her side, which observers noted is a fair description of the position of two dolls positioned as if engaged in sex, but not of two people actually engaged in such activity. Defense attorneys also showed that this child had been interviewed as many as dozen times during the three months leading up to first disclosure that Sims had abused her. A third child was placed on the stand, the 11-year-old girl's older sister. This girl, a 12-year-old, pulled her teddy bear in front of her face and clammed up. The judge finally ordered the jury to disregard what little the child did say. Then the prosecutor called the man reputed to be the chief investigator on this case, Detective Helvey. Helvey admitted that Perez handed him a pile of reports on March 23rd, that he did one interview (with the 11-year-old foster child of Detective Perez), then began arresting people on March 28th. He also admitted that he had not taken any classes in how to investigate sex abuse cases until May of this year, more than a month after his arrests began. Later, he did do a number of interviews himself, but made a number of mistakes, such as allowing one child witness to remain in the room during the interview of another witness. Detective Helvey showed video tapes of the Pentecostal Church. They showed a cluttered basement filled with tables. There didn't appear to be room to hold the described orgies unless they cleaned the place up. He said that state forensic investigators searched the church for semen or pornographic photos, but found nothing. There is no physical evidence in this case. The prosecutor then called Linda Miller, a woman who is also accused of child sex abuse. Miller had signed a confession in which she said there were child orgies at the church. But on the witness stand, Miller said her confession was a lie, that none of it ever happened. She said she was coerced into making the statement by Detective Perez. That put the prosecution in the unusual position of having to discredit its own witness, so they called three other police officers who said they were in the room during the time of the Perez interview with Miller. They said Perez did nothing to threaten Miller. However, they didn't make any report of being there until three weeks after the interview, when it became apparent she was going to recant. And the defense pointed out a number of discrepancies between their stories and the Perez report. Detective Perez is due to take the stand on Monday. The defense is hoping for good day on cross examination. They expect to be able to examine the Detective about his own criminal history, about his training and about his behavior as a foster father. Many people believe the case may turn on Perez's testimony Monday, >> CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE << --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: George.Hero@nopc.org (1:396/17.27) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBU00002Date: 07/23/95 From: GEORGE HERO Time: 11:03am \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: For your info... ======================================================================== Forwarded here by George Hero (1:396/17.27) ======================================================================== Area: NETMAIL Date: 22 Jul 95 19:57:23 Private From: tgrant@COMTCH.IEA.COM (396/17) To: George Hero (396/17) Subject: Wenatchee [2] ======================================================================== >> CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE << and the whole pile of sex ring allegations could collapse if the defense gets the best of him. However, because this trial is in Douglas County (East Wenatchee) and the majority of cases are in Chelan County (Wenatchee proper), I believe Chelan County prosecutors will want to take their own shot no matter what happens in the Sims case. And if Sims is convicted, I believe a number of the accused would begin scrambling to cut a deal. At this point however, the Sims defense appears quite confident while the prosecutor appears to be a bit off balance. One note on the trial: The first newspaper account of the story led with an account of the judge admonishing the defense for going too hard on one of the child witnesses. In court the next day, the defense told the judge that he'd like a better signal when he was being admonished. And the judge said, funny, he didn't recall admonishing him. The reporter later told people at the trial that her editor had written the first five paragraphs himself, over her objection, because he was trying to juice up the story. The reporter says she won't let it happen again. Tom Tom Grant tgrant@comtch.iea.com Reporter, KREM-TV, PO Box 8037, Spokane, WA 99202 Phone: 509-838-7373 -+- GIGO+ sn 234 at nopc vsn 0.99.950303 --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: George.Hero@nopc.org (1:396/17.27) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 210 VICTIMS/FALSEACC Ref: CBU00003Date: 07/23/95 From: RICK THOMA Time: 06:06pm \/To: ALLEN COWLING (Read 3 times) Subj: Civil Suits 1/2 1/2 > Milton Silverman ripped away at a prosecutor's immunity in a case > in California . . . Please provide a pointer toward this particular case. It ought make for interesting reading. --- * Origin: Williamsburg, VA. (1:271/124)