--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEK00003 Date: 10/16/97 From: ROBBY DITTMANN Time: 08:23am \/To: SEANETTE BLAYLOCK (Read 1 times) Subj: Herding Trials SB> MinPins weren't bred for herding, I don't think. :-) Actually they were bred for keeping rodents out of kitchens. Considering how much time he spends in the kitchen, he's true to his heritage! Robby --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: Red Shift BBS, Home of Mamoosoft! ... (770) 979-9467 (1:133/8003) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEK00004 Date: 10/16/97 From: JAN WERTZ Time: 11:46am \/To: JUDITH BANDSMA (Read 1 times) Subj: GENETIC PROBLEMS -> -=> Did Jan Wertz really say that to Cliff Hetherington? <=- -> JW> with the blood clotting disorder, Von Willebrand's disease, in which -> JW> one of the clotting factors is missing. One gene for it is enough to -> We are seeing Von Willebrand's in Bouviers, too. Not a lot...yet. But it -> has been recorded. -> JW> valve. It usually isn't detected until the dog is around 6 yrs old, -> JW> and drops dead. Which means that if Champion Sir Gorgeous, who is a -> Subvalvular aortic stenosis...SAS. Also affecting Bouviers. -> JW> destroying it! Like you, I think there are some folks who want to be -> JW> so exclusive of what can be kept in a breed, and insist that any others -> JW> be neutered to the point where they may actually destroy it! -> Well, I don't know about other breeds but Bouvier owners are trying to -> weed out the CHD, SAS, VW, a couple of eye diseases and a genetic thyroid -> disorder that is becoming almost the norm. -> What we want to keep, and breed, are healthy specimens of the breed. A -> breeder who ignores the available tests for genetic disorders is not one -> *I* want a pup from. The exclusivity I was referring to was nNOT a comment saying that carriers of genetic disorders should be continued to be bred. In some areas only a few dogs are permitted to be bred, such as champions. This is one of those ideas which sounds great, but results in any defects a particular dog has, such as recessives for hip displasia, collie eye, photo-degenerative skin syndrome, Von Willebrands and other such recessives being spread around. Of course only healthy animals should be bred! Unfortunately, the definition of what constitutes a champion is somewhat subject to wims, just like clothing fashions. An 'exceptional' looking male can be very heavily used. If he has an unfortunate, even deadly, recessive, that recessive becomes very widely spread. Von Willebrands CAN be detected as a recessive with special coagulation testing. Other problems are not as detectable, and can become endemic in a breed. As to the 'style' of what is popular in dog breeds, breeding for one trait to the exclusion of others can be hazardous. Consider color. In many breeds, such as Dalmatians, collies, shelties, great danes, daschunds, etc. mereling is popular. (I personally own 2 meredled shelties) Harlequin colors such as the Dalmatian's spots and harlequin Danes also fall into this category. Yet, if 2 mereled dogs are bred, the result can be deaf blind pups! A single gene for mereling is interesting, 2 can be BAD news! (Yes, it is possible to have a healthy double merel. However they usually have multiple health problems.) So, don't breed 2 merels. Nice. Obvious. Yet merels can be cryptic... sable merels in shelties can go undetected. Other breeds, such as Irish Setters have been bred for coat color. The deep liver red is beautiful, but it cost the dogs a bit in tmeperment. My point is, exclusivity which restricts the gene pool to too few animals is a sure formual for disaster. --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0 * Origin: Mr Zip "Home of Aunt Gabby Echo" (1:123/17) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEL00000 Date: 10/15/97 From: JUDITH BANDSMA Time: 06:44pm \/To: CLIFF HETHERINGTON (Read 1 times) Subj: BREED STANDARDS..BIG FOOT -=> Did Cliff Hetherington really say that to Judith Bandsma? <=- You really haven't read a word that I've typed to you. We DO NOT HAVE 'breed rescue centers' here. Breed rescue is done by local clubs and financed usually out of pocket by volunteers. The 'shelters' here are shelters, or more often just the pound. Animals are held in them for anywhere from 36 hours to 10 days for reclamation by owner or adoption. Then they are KILLED. Period. End of sentence. There is no effort made to make sure an animal is rehomed. IN THIS COUNTRY if animals are not neutered, a lot more end up in the pound and a lot more die. I have been trying to tell you that what works for your country WILL NOT work here and your insistence to people in this country that they should not neuter their animals is, in most cases, totally irresponsible. CH> Perhaps we are at x-purposes here.. Are you advocating the neutering CH> of any /all animals on the grounds that it prevents cancer? in some CH> animals at some stage in their lives? If you are not going to breed an animal, then yes, why take the chance. CH> If your particular breed of animal has a high incedence of canine CH> cancer, then you as the animals owner must take what steps you consider ALL bitches, of all breeds, have a higher incidence of mammary cancer if not neutered. CH> So, in order to avoid any further mis-understandings for whatever CH> reason.. Let me say I ONLY find fault in neutering 'SOUND' animals CH> which are going to a 'GOOD & RESPONSIBLE' owner.. That may work in the UK but it doesn't work here. CH> And given that your center is a breed specific [if I read your post CH> aright] And that presumably you vet the persons who come asking for an CH> animal, and that there must be some animals in he center which have all CH> the attributes expected of their breed, are sound and in good health, CH> or you wouldnt be selling them to anyone in the 1st place.. [fee was CH> mentioned and thus implies sale of the animal] No you did not read it right. We have shelters...not breed centers. In my area there is NO purebred rescue of any kind. The closest Bouvier rescue CONTACT (one person) is in Tennessee...about 700 miles from here. CH> Why should a perfectly sound animal be neutered? Are you either unsure CH> of the home its going too? or the condition/status of the animal CH> concerned in a transaction? Because there are too many people here who think that just because a dog is registered that it is somehow a candidate for breeding and the money to be made by selling the pups. AKC registration ONLY means that both parents were of the same breed...nothing else. These are the people who know nothing of genetics, and couldn't care less about finding out. And they are the ones whose puppies end up in the shelters and the kill rooms. Neutering them makes sure it doesn't happen. If we had less of a problem with stray, unwanted animals, or more facilities, people and money to help out with it, we could afford your attitude. We don't. So we do the next best thing...we push to make sure the animals are not even born just to die without ever having had a home. If that offends you, too bad. If you think telling you you are building strawmen is a flame, you ain't seen nothing. ... But my assault rifle IS for sport! I use it for hunting PETA members. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEL00001 Date: 10/17/97 From: CLIFF HETHERINGTON Time: 05:32am \/To: SHOSHONA BIEMAN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Breeder's guarantees Quoted From: Shoshona Bieman To: Cliff Hetherington Date: 14-Oct-97 Hello Shoshona, CH>> had made a mistake in the type of dog purchased... SB> There is NOTHING wrong with that, and I commend them for making SB> the responsible decision. It protects the dog from breeding abuses SB> and it helps to minimize the unwanted pet population. I regret that, in my view there IS something wrong with THAT.. Why systematically remove good genes from the animal gene pool? Bad genes I dont argue with, for heath reasons I have no argument with.. On the possible offchance some future owner MAY breed too many animals of a substandard type... THATs trying to predict when the planet will be visited by ET or the precise date and time and name of the winning horse in some obscure race somewhere.... SB> As I stated before, any rescue group WORTH IT'S KIBBLE will take SB> this responsible stand with ALL their animals. Otherwise, you run SB> the risk of providing grist for the puppy mills... Well that I do not consider to be the best method for dealing with puppy farmers / puppy mills.. It doesnt deal directly with those concerned.. And those who do that sort of thing still continue to operate... Why not press for legal action to make it difficult or impossible for puppy mills to make that FAST buck, no cash, no mill.. If any kennel not registered with the correct authorities asks for cash for any animal make it illegal to do so.. Make the resultant fine so stiff that there isnt any way its worth it to run a puppy mill/farm.. Or some other course of action to ensure that rescued animals dont fall into the hads of sub standard owners... SB> You MUST remember that the dog was already unwanted, for whatever Was it?, In every case? Sorry but I know of many cases in which rescue animals WERE WANTED, but the person wanting them simply couldnt cope, not because the animal was troublesome, but because the OWNER became destitute or had some other problem... And gave a much loved animal into a rescue center in the belief such a place would be able to care for their pet better than they could.. Breed specific rescue centers are held to be the best method of ensuring ones pet is best rehoused or taken care o,f as those involved KNOW the breed well. What seemingly happens is that even good stock is neutered, while stock that isnt as good, is permitted to breed, even passing on poor or even detrimental genes to the rest of the breed, simply because those owning the breeding animals are affluent or hold some particular status in the community... Hence we have dogs with breed certs and even AFAIK some champion animals that have spread bad genes into the rest of the animal population... So neutering so called unwanted animals has NOT preventd the problem.. and it MAY have exacibated it.. The human condition is in as much or a state of flux as anything else these days. Can anyone be absolutely certain of remaining in gainfull employment ALL their life, or be certain that when they retire, they will be able to maintain the standard of living they wish for? I dont believe so.. Is that a reason to decide NEVER to own a pet... perhaps.... perhaps not... Make an investment for retirement and some vagary of the world economy could well result in much reduced income or even destitution.. a 7% swing in exchange rates or raw material prices could well put a good many people out of work.. for a LONG time.. And there is no reason to suppose that those folk will not be pet owners and hitherto GOOD pet owners.... Now however much some people may want to care for their pet it may be impossible due to circumstances. So they contact the breed rescue center. Some being unaware of the general neutering policy, others who did know of it decided that a live pet that had been neuthered was still better than a having a pet put down or not otherwised cared for properly.. But I wonder how many if asked, would say they would prefer their pet not to be neutered UNLESS there was ABOLUTELY no other recourse... SB> sneak out of your home/yard to pursue the bitch -- all at risk to SB> life & limb). I hope in time you will come to understand this... What comes across is that WE [the human race] penalise animals for our failures... If we just accept this and do nothing, then nothing ever improves... Howver if we try to remove the reasons behind penalising the animal gene pool then we stand some chance of making progress, and eventually remove the need to deplete what may be a valuable gene resource from many beeds of animals... I disagree with the broad spectrum policy of neutering any/all animals REGARDLESS of their condition.. Its far to broad a policy. And IMO implies certain things that may well not be correct.. It is symptomatic of peoples unwillingness to make the effort to deal with the underlying causes..Or to deal with some situation which is percieved to be too difficult for whatever reason.. but people DO overcome amazing hurdles.. I hold certain views, you hold some which are opposed to mine, however I imagine there are areas on which we may agree:-) I've noticed a tendancy for some people to take offence at posts/posters that do not subscribe to whatever view is held by a poster.. This seems to me unwarrented, in my view debate between people holding opposing views is one way of getting a concensus and perhaps a more reasoned result... With that circumstance in mind I trust you will not take my views on this topic as an attack on you.. rather than what they are, a disagreement on methodology and practice.. Cheers, Cliff --- Terminate 5.00/Pro*at Support FREE2000 & Operation FidoNet * Origin: A pointed connection @ TRAK-ONE!, England. (2:254/60.10) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEM00000 Date: 10/16/97 From: WILLIAM GIVLER Time: 06:01pm \/To: AVRAMA GINGOLD (Read 1 times) Subj: Mea Culpa... An excellent point, and I thank you for the correction-- I guess "natural selection" should read: "captive-bred engineering specs..." As domestics, it's probably safe to assume that aesthetics are as crucial to an alleles's survival as utilitarian functions are to the wild relative. As far as I can see, ear clipping serves no purpose in the dog, apart froom a role in combat: against other animals or yeast infections. In the first case, who do I oathe more than a dog-fighter? In the second, Bassets and spaniels, most prone to these infections, are rarely clipped... It's purely a re-thinking of esthetes at work. Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow; dog issues put e up on the emotional soapbox and I tend to rant and rave... or had you oticed? Beware of Dog, --BG-- ... "Opie says you Touched Him, Goober..." ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 --- TriToss (tm) Professional 1.0 - #126 * Origin: Cyberspace Addicts, Surgar Creek, MO 816-461-0598 (1:280/37.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEM00001 Date: 10/17/97 From: CLIFF HETHERINGTON Time: 08:19pm \/To: JUDITH BANDSMA (Read 1 times) Subj: BREED STANDARDS..BIG FOOT Quoted From: Judith Bandsma To: Cliff Hetherington Date: 15-Oct-97 Hello Judith, On 15-Oct-97, Judith Bandsma: Cliff Hetherington JB> You really haven't read a word that I've typed to you. We DO NOT JB> HAVE 'breed rescue centers' here. Breed rescue is done by local JB> clubs and financed usually out of pocket by volunteers. Oh? perhaps I am reading BREED RESCUE is DONE by LOCAL CLUBS wrong? Make up your mind as to if you do or do not carry out breed specific rescue.. So Given that you have just repeated that breed rescue IS done by local clubs, pray tell me what I am expected to read into it? JB> of sentence. There is no effort made to make sure an animal is JB> rehomed. By the dog pound... but according to YOU local clubs run BREED rescue AND rehouse animals.. JB> IN THIS COUNTRY if animals are not neutered, a lot more end up in JB> the pound and a lot more die. I have been trying to tell you that JB> what works for your country WILL NOT work here and your insistence JB> to people in this country that they should not neuter their JB> animals is, in most cases, totally irresponsible. Take a deep breath lady, then read and inwardly digest the following.. THIS ECHO IS GATED INTERNATIONALLY it is NOT therefore USA SPECIFIC!!! Bearing the the FACT that this is an INTERNATIONAL echo, why do you assume that everything posted HAS to be aimed at the USA... And be applicable ONLY to the USA? I posted on what I considered to be bad practice as it applies here and you promptly jumped in and contradicted me... And as yet, you have failed to demonstrate to me that you are even cognisant of the content or meaning of what you yourself have posted. CH>> cancer? in some animals at some stage in their lives? JB> If you are not going to breed an animal, then yes, why take the JB> chance. Well people DO breed animals.. some people breed very few and others breed to many, others attempt to IMPROVE a specific breed, and due to lack of either understanding or lack of adaquate partners end up doing the breed no good at all, if however they bothered to do some work on the genetic problems associated with some types of breeding, and then stopped culling prospective good genes then perhaps, there would be fewer animals with congenital complaints.. Am I to assume that no one who is deemed to be a RESPONSIBLE person in the USA breeds animals? If so then I doubt the veracity of the premise. CH>> If your particular breed of animal has a high incidence of canine CH>> cancer, then you as the animals owner must take what steps you CH>> consider JB> ALL bitches, of all breeds, have a higher incidence of mammary JB> cancer if not neutered. So tell me do you then advocate that all bitches be sterilised as soon as possible? After all if one does that, folks in your neck of the woods wont have any problems with the canine population will they, there simply wont be a canine population at all. CH>> animals which are going to a 'GOOD & RESPONSIBLE' owner.. JB> That may work in the UK but it doesn't work here. So you are telling me that there are no good and responsible owners in the USA? No one who can be trusted to take proper care of an animal that hasn't been neutered? I very much doubt your fellow countrymen and wimmen will agree with that.. I wonder how many of the dog owners taking this echo consider themselves to be irresponsible? CH>> sale of the animal] JB> No you did not read it right. We have shelters...not breed JB> centers. In my area there is NO purebred rescue of any kind. The JB> closest Bouvier rescue CONTACT (one person) is in JB> Tennessee...about 700 miles from here. So let me got this straight, in para one of this post you said and I quote.. "Breed rescue is done local clubs and financed usually out of pocket by volunteers." In the para above you now state that there is NO breed rescue. And that the nearest specific breed rescue contact is 700 miles away.. Pardon me for being somewhat confused.. either there IS or there IS NOT a specific breed rescue [center/person/breed club associate]. One cannot have it both ways.. In the UK clubs which are involved in any specific breed of animal have some sort of plan regarding any animals of that particualr breed, an official or associate of the club will be a contact for a rescue center that is capable of dealing with the breed, members of the club may well give shelter if they are registered breeders or kennel owners to rescue animals.. And quite often where the nearest club is some distance away local owners of a particular breed may form some sort of association.. and setup regular contact with the nearest 'official' club. So lets define some terms BREED in my terminology means a specific BREED of animal, OTHER than crosses of two or more differing breeds of animal. Thouroughbred means apparently the equivalent to your purebred.. where I come from a specific breed and thoroughbred mean the same, one does not breed crosses deliberately for showing, nor are such animals recognised by the KC. And no one would recognise a cross bred animal as a BREED per se. So there is no need to specify PUREBRED as such when refering to a specific breed of animal, more commonly specific reference is made only when its NOT a definate breed of animal, ie:- a cross of x & y breeds.. CH>> animal concerned in a transaction? JB> ONLY means that both parents were of the same breed...nothing JB> else. Then perhaps more effort should go into educating those to whom the animals are sold? And if they wont take being told that an animal must only be matched with a compatible partner then they shouldn't be permitted to purchase the animal.. Perhaps if it were pointed out to people that just because 1 animal has a certificate it doesnt mean its offspring will get one? And of course ensure that any offspring dont.. JB> These are the people who know nothing of genetics, and JB> couldn't care less about finding out. And they are the ones whose JB> puppies end up in the shelters and the kill rooms. Neutering them JB> makes sure it doesn't happen. Then the solution is DO NOT rehouse animals with such people.. Do NOT permit the sale of animals BY or TO those people. I'm aware that it would not be easy to do the above, however I do not believe it is impossible, just very difficult, and it may well require legislation to enforce.. But if people can and have pressed for and passed legislation wrt to animals in the past, then it can be done again.. JB> If we had less of a problem with stray, unwanted animals, or more JB> facilities, people and money to help out with it, we could afford JB> your attitude. We don't. So we do the next best thing...we push to JB> make sure the animals are not even born just to die without ever JB> having had a home. As far as I know many countries have a problem with unscrupulous people breeding animals just to make a fast profit. And there are in all countries those who buy animals which are unsuitable and those animals end up unwanted.. However it is not the fault of the animals, its the fault of the people who sell animals and those who purchase them.. And should to be effective be countered at source... At the SELLER... not IMO at the animal. If as much money was spent on defeating the sellers, as is apparently spent on neutering the unwanted [to some] offspring produced by the fast buck merchants then maybe there would be fewer of them. JB> If that offends you, too bad. If you think telling you you are JB> building strawmen is a flame, you ain't seen nothing. I tend to find people who tell me to 'go immolate', which if you have a dictionary to hand will enlighten you that immolate means BURN.. as in self immolation.. to commit suicide by burning oneself to death.. When someone tells me to go and burn myself, I consider that to be a flame.. Both in the context of it being directed at me personally and in its involving heat.. and being by context abusive... I will reread you prior post to see if ANY mention was made of strawmen.. but I tend to doubt that any such was mentioned in that context. As for flames, well I too can go that route, probably far more effectively than you, at least my native language is English... and I'm very well aquainted with it.. Perhaps you should spend some time brushing up on yours? And deciding if you do or do not cater for the rescue of animals of a specific breed. A topic on which you are seemingly at this time unsure. Cheers, Cliff --- Terminate 5.00/Pro*at Support FREE2000 & Operation FidoNet * Origin: The Dragons Lair off TRAK-ONE........ (2:254/60.10) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEN00000 Date: 10/17/97 From: AVRAMA GINGOLD Time: 03:14am \/To: CLIFF HETHERINGTON (Read 1 times) Subj: Breed Standards..Big Foot The problem is that in the vast majority of purebreds who turn up in rescue..complete background information is not available. Even when the pedigree is known..little or nothing is known about what tests the parents have had (e.g.-OFA or PennHip for hip dysplasia..testing for vWD..thyroid..annual CERF for PRA). Just being registered--whether with AKC in the States or the Kennel Club in GB--does not say anything about the quality of the animal. ... nfx v2.7 [C0000] "Nature teaches beasts to know their friends." --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10 * Origin: MoonDog BBS RIME NetHub Brooklyn,NY (1:278/15) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEN00001 Date: 10/18/97 From: MARY GALATI Time: 07:22am \/To: MARG MCCORMICK (Read 1 times) Subj: Breeding Re: sad about my dog :-( > good breeder. Breeding just to produce puppies is not a good reason to > do it. There is an old saying in dog breeding that goes something like > this " If your still doing this 5 years down the road you're probably > hooked and will stay with it". I find most people good people get into > this with the idea that your going to breed the perfect dog, with no > genetic problems and you just know if you do everything you are > supposed to do, you won't run into any problems. It's called "Stars in > your eyes syndrome". By the time you get to the 5 year point you have > you to keep going. There are many wonderful things about breeding but I wouldn't be too worried about that...I'm definitely not out to produce a super breed because I really believe their can never be such a thing. I do believe that as long as the animal has no genetic deficiencies and a great character- then that is reason alone. People seem to forget that many of the great breeds out there are the result of many years of breeding different dogs to get the desired results. I'm more the type of person that would want to give families the opportunity to share their lives with a great member of the family. > making money is not one of them. It is not just the price of feeding, > vet bills, stud fees, registration, shots etc. There are also show > fees, your gas & meals at shows and running them around to be bred, > seminars, obedience lessons, courses in Canine Science, certification > of hips, elbows and eyes, kennel club fees, researching pedigrees, > telephone calls and faxes, dog crates, leashes and collars, and of It always boils down to money. My dream is to own a country home and take in all the unwanted pets. Unfortunately I can't figure out a way - short of winning the lottery- to accomplish this. I noticed you are calling from Toronto...Do you happen to know any Bouvier breeders from Belleville? In particular the one that did the Pedigree commercial..She's my hubby's cousin. I've never met her personally but I'd love to chat to her about her pups. ttyl, Mary Galati --- Virtual Advanced Ver 2 for DOS The Dragon's Den 1:250/104, a&m@to.org Toronto, Ont. (416)744-8654 * Origin: Platinum Communications : 905-770-9540 (1:250/301) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEN00002 Date: 10/17/97 From: KIMBER THURMAN Time: 08:09pm \/To: ELVIS HARGROVE (Read 1 times) Subj: For your info... EH>-> I've never had a Dane, but I like them. Going to need a much bigger EH>-> place before I get one, though! EH>They're very nice animals. Heck, they're very nice _people!_ They EH>really don't need a great deal of room, but they are easier to keep EH>where they can run some. OTHERWISE, they run in the house! EH>Their sweet temperament makes up for a VAST multitude of lamentable EH>traits they might have. Yeah, like the puppy stage!! I grew up with Danes and adore the breed! Oh and those tails when they get excited... watch out! --- QMPro 1.51 "Drawing on my fine command of language, I said nothing." * Origin: Trafalgar - OS/2 in B'ham 252-3112 (1:3602/1805) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 121 DOGS Ref: EEN00003 Date: 10/17/97 From: KIMBER THURMAN Time: 08:09pm \/To: CLIFF HETHERINGTON (Read 1 times) Subj: Breed Standards..Big Foot CH>If someone buys a thoroughbred dog, which is KC registered and is erfectly CH>fit, has no genetic defects, and then finds that they [the human] can no CH>longer take care of said dog, and takes the dog to a breed specific rescue CH>center, and that animal is then neutered, and its pedigree scrubbed from C CH>records.. particularly as that same animal is then usually rehoused with CH>someone who can and will take care of it properly, I cannot see why it CH>should be neutered.. and due to its pedigree being scrubbed, be unable to CH>contribute to that breed's gene pool.. If it ends up in a breed rescue I believe it *should* be neutered. There are no guarantees that this animal is genetically healthy nor that the new owners will behave responsibly about breeding it. If it was such a wonderful breed standard the owner could have taken the dog back to the person they bought it from or found a good breeding/showing home for it. CH> KT> I believe if you aren't going to breed an animal you should have it CH> KT> spayed or neutered when they reach the age. CH>Thats fine, as someone else has pointed out it prevents cerain medical CH>conditions.. BUT if you do want to breed a dog, but cannot simply because CH>some other person wasnt able to continue to care for it and placed it in a CH>rescue center thats a totally diferent story.. and a nasty one. If a person wants to be a breeder they should take the time to investigate the breed and get a good breeding specimen from a reliable breeder. Not just go pick up an animal from the shelter and go for it. If the animal was not good enough to go back to the original breeder nor be found a home then it should be neutered. CH>Well since you 'own' those animals you have that right.. as to that course CH>of action making a specific breed better or worse by removing genetic CH>material from the 'pure' breed thats another story.. Both my purebred dogs come from Champion bloodlines and would be great breeding stock. But it is my choice not to breed them and not take the chance of an accidental breeding. CH>Nevertheless I maintain having a simplistic rule that ALL rescued CH>thoroughbred animals be neutered, irrespective of their medical, genetic CH>status, usefull breeding capacity, and future welfare, is incorrect and CH>damages the very breed its supposed to help. Well human irresponsibility has caused this *NEED* to neuter. --- QMPro 1.51 Men apologize for being weak, women for their strengths * Origin: Trafalgar - OS/2 in B'ham 252-3112 (1:3602/1805)