--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2L00000 Date: 02/14/96 From: YVES POIRIER Time: 04:59pm \/To: LASZLO SOKOLAI (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: D.J.'s LS> 600 was cancelled by yorkville. The rumor is from their plant that the LS> AP800 is coming. Dunno why when they already have LS> the BETA 800 workhorse amps. The amps floating LS> around out there are the older ap500's (no activity LS> lights, just clip, protect and power leds), the newer LS> ap500's (clip, activity, protect, power leds). The LS> ap1200, 3000, 3400 watt models are still available and LS> being sold like hotcakes to clubs and studios. Being LS> chosen over bryston because audiopro amps are LS> transparent as the Bryston classics and 3B NRB, and 3b- LS> ST series. Cheap amps, but if you want bone rattling LS> bass, you need 2 ap3000's to equal ONE QSC EX 4000 watt amp. Alright I'm sorry but he is not looking for a 600... I made a mistake, he is looking for a 1200. If you have one for sale just leave me a message and I'll give it to him. yvel rhythm the rhythm rebel --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: The Cybernetic Jungle. Ottawa, ON 613-746-1025 (1:163/551) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2L00001 Date: 02/16/96 From: JACOB SANGSTER Time: 12:43am \/To: ALL (Read 4 times) Subj: Analog tape decks Sorry to post off-topic, but this is the best area I can find to ask such a question: Do any of you have any favorites for good, under $4-500 analog tape decks? Have done plenty of investigating on my own, but any input from you guys would be greatly appreciated! --- * Origin: Morph BBS, Wilmette, IL, 847-251-2307 - (1:115/251) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2L00002 Date: 02/16/96 From: THOM HONLES Time: 02:03pm \/To: SCOTT WADDELL (Read 4 times) Subj: better sound. Hi Scott. SW> keyboards? it sounds like a dumb question but... (BTW i'm using a KORG SW> keyboard) I like synth's but my songs sound liek damn SW> video games instead of SW> harsh gut renching industrial noise... help my sanity Try running your keyboard output through a typical guitar stomp box distortion or overdrive... vary the mix according to taste (or lack thereof ;-> ) Splitting the signal through a stereo chorus and feeding one side through the overdrive will also sharpen the sound for an industrial edge. T --- Maximus/2 3.00 * Origin: E3 Info Exchange (213)367-3715 * (1:102/945) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2L00003 Date: 02/15/96 From: LASZLO SOKOLAI Time: 08:43pm \/To: TERRY SMITH (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: big, big, big sound! TS > TS > LS> As you know, or should know, the impedance of a TS > TS > LS> speaker is a reactive load, never stays at one TS > TS > LS> impedance. I could visually see that happen over the TS > TS > Unless you defeated normal AC line protective devices, how TS > did TS > you sustain 100 amperes? TS > LS> Simple, plugged the amp into a 25 ampere 120 volt plug, 120 volts TS > dipped TS > LS> to 90 volts, and that's what i measured using an TS > LS> ammeter in parallel with a 8 ohm speaker. The TS > Sounds like you need better building wiring. Ammeters are TS > series devices BTW, unless they're AC current transformers TS > (amprobes) or DC hall effect transducer instruments. If TS > you connect an ammeter in parallel with a driver, you TS > likely have a near short load from an ammeter shunt with TS > little current to the driver. I meant amp in parallel with 8 ohm speaker, and the ammeter in between the two. The building's wiring is ok, except for line losses from the 6 guage wire they feed the house on AFTER i installed the proper 0/3 cabling on my 200 ampere meter feed. Still hydro insists on using 6 guage from the pole to the house. TS > LS> speaker did not like it, i measured 167 volts at 100 TS > LS> ampers into the speaker. I noticed amps are getting TS > If you mean 100 amps at a fractional ohm shunt impedance, TS > and 167 volts with no load or an 8 ohm speaker, those are TS > NOT numbers which can be simply multiplied to calculate TS > real power. Still, 100 amps sustained long enough so that TS > an ordinary ammeter could read it represents a LOT of power TS > for an audio amp. 167 volts RMS into 8 ohms would yield TS > nearly 3500 watts, or 435 watts if peak to peak. 100 amps TS > into a 0.05 ohm shunt would yield 500 watts, but represent TS > healthy reserves to deal with driver reactance. Well, i used the ammeter in series with the drivers. The current went up when i dropped the impedance to 4 ohms, but the voltage from the amp stayed steady and slow even when the line cord voltage took a nosedive. TS > LS> very efficient, 75 percent efficiency rating is on TS > LS> all my amplifiers with this class AB dual rail system. TS > It would be hard to spec meaningful efficiency on such a TS > design without the context of the measurement conditions, TS > as it would be highly variable. Yes, i figured that much out talking to an amplifier company named Mark Levinson and Krell. Class A/B has distortion which i did not know about until now. The distortion between the puch pull rails known as crossover distortion when the transistors are not working to their linear maximum. Laszlo Sokolai Team ANTI-Windows95/PRO-OS2/PRO-UNIX/PRO-XENIX/PRO-DOS lsokolai@bbs42.com lsokolai@albedo.net lsokolai@roxanne.bbs42.com --- BBS 42 * Origin: BBS 42 (1:221/605) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2L00004 Date: 02/15/96 From: LASZLO SOKOLAI Time: 08:54pm \/To: TERRY SMITH (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: Mic Spliters TS > TS > Why would you use more than 2 crossovers, or run a system TS > that TS > large without a limiter for protection? TS > LS> Well i run multi-crossovers for alot of reasons, when i had all the TS > amps TS > LS> patched into one crossover, when one amp clipped, the TS > LS> other amps emitted a slight popping noise which was TS > LS> enough to get through the subsonic filter and cause TS > LS> the cones on the speakers to slam into the front steel TS > Sounds like a poor protection circuit design on the amps. TS > You could also use a DA for buffering, which would likely TS > be more stable than several crossovers and cost less. It's TS > amazing where they cut corners on some products, including TS > stuff sold as pro gear. TS > Well, i found something very interesting when i moved my amps onto a common AC breaker panel. Every time ONE amp clipped, the line takes a drop as i figured out the amps output stage tried to stop the back EMF from the woofer and the woofer saw the amp as a complete short circuit on a clip blink. This is why the breakers on my speaker cabinets shut off when i drive a 800 watt speaker at 300 watts into a bit of clipping. When i run the 800 watt speaker at 900 watts into clipping, the breakers on the speaker cabinets do not shut off anymore. Damnest problem i ever saw. TS > LS> grilles on my yamaha 4115-II's. With a balanced line TS > LS> i can push the mixer higher because i lifted the TS > LS> negative on the balanced xlr lines. Makes the mixer TS > LS> go higher, and the amps clip exactly when i push or TS > LS> boost another 3db of say 40hz to 110 hz when the mixer is 100 TS > percent TS > Either your equipment doesn't use normal electronic design TS > or you're doing something that should give less headroom, TS > not more. Well, in english, i ran unbalanced source to balanced amps. This was why i could go higher on the master out feeds from the mixer. I just did the wiring like so: RCA jack red positive, shield negative. XLR end, ground not connected ut negative from RCA shield goes to negative on XLR, or ring on 1/4" plug. Positive from rca goes to tip of 1/4 balanced or positive of XLR plug. I found a standardized conflict when i ran my Crown amps, my AudioPro amps, and the new QSC amps i picked up. The Crown wants the balanced 1/4" to have the positive on the ring of the 1/4" plug. Same with the QSC. However, the AudioPro amps want the positive on the 1/4" balanced connectors to be the tip of the plug. Is there a standard for connecting racks of amplifiers together out there? I have dealt with Yamaha amplifiers connected with Crown connected with AudioPro connected with QSC and i had to reverse the phase on alot of banana jacks to get the sound straight. Laszlo Sokolai Team ANTI-Windows95/PRO-OS2/PRO-UNIX/PRO-XENIX/PRO-DOS lsokolai@bbs42.com lsokolai@albedo.net lsokolai@roxanne.bbs42.com --- BBS 42 * Origin: BBS 42 (1:221/605) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2P00000 Date: 02/18/96 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 12:03am \/To: LASZLO SOKOLAI (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: big, big, big sound! LS> I meant amp in parallel with 8 ohm speaker, and the LS> ammeter in between the two. Do you really mean two nominal 8 ohm speakers in parallel, yielding a 4 ohm nominal load? (Still, dummy loads are usually used for power ratings, as speakers have so many quirks.) LS> The building's wiring is ok, except for line losses from the 6 guage LS> wire they feed the house on AFTER i installed the LS> proper 0/3 cabling on my 200 ampere meter feed. LS> Still hydro insists on using 6 guage from the pole to LS> the house. That's not possible for a feed of more than 60 Amps. I've seen 4 AWG Cu THHN inside a meter housing catch fire in a 100 A service loaded to 70-80 Amps. I wouldn't be surpised to see 1 AWG Al (service wire is often high temp rated, and not subject to the cooling restriction or flammables exposure of indoor wiring). 1/0 Cu would be nice. You have to allow for xfmr drop and breakers too in figuring service losses. TS > LS> speaker did not like it, i measured 167 volts at 100 TS > LS> ampers into the speaker. I noticed amps are getting 167 V P-P into 4 ohms would yield 870 Watts and a current of 42 A P-P, or about 15 A RMS. Either your load is way below 4 ohms, or you have a huge reactive current flow, or inaccurate metering. What are the plus and minus upper and intermediate rail voltages? TS > LS> all my amplifiers with this class AB dual rail system. TS > It would be hard to spec meaningful efficiency on such a TS > design without the context of the measurement conditions,TS > as it would be highly variable. LS> Yes, i figured that much out talking to an amplifier LS> company named Mark Levinson and Krell. Class A/B has LS> distortion which i did not know about until now. The LS> distortion between the puch pull rails known as LS> crossover distortion when the transistors are not LS> working to their linear maximum. Crossover distortion is a bias matching problem, often most noted at low levels and high frequencies. All analog circuits have some distortion, though the best I've seen are around 0.0002% THD. That wasn't consumer electronics. BTW, Mark's company and Krell are both local to me. They're both a little strange, and not what is practical for most apps you're discussing. Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Do it near resonance! (203)732-0575 BPCN in CT (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2P00001 Date: 02/18/96 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 12:21am \/To: LASZLO SOKOLAI (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: Mic Spliters LS> common AC breaker panel. Every time ONE amp clipped, LS> the line takes a drop as i figured out the amps LS> output stage tried to stop the back EMF from the LS> woofer and the woofer saw the amp as a complete short LS> circuit on a clip blink. This is why the breakers on LS> my speaker cabinets shut off when i drive a 800 watt LS> speaker at 300 watts into a bit of clipping. When i LS> run the 800 watt speaker at 900 watts into clipping, LS> the breakers on the speaker cabinets do not shut off LS> anymore. Damnest problem i ever saw. If I thought you had studied integral calc of trig functions, polar conversions, forms of AC instrumentation including phase relationships relative to power, crest factor causing variable calibration errors, and a few other related areas of physics and math, I could help you sort out why that is fairly well. Short of that kind of background, you just have to trust the engineers who tell you about solid system design, including good components and clean support utilities. I'll give you a ratio that likely won't completely make sense: (pi/2)^2 That, about 2.47, is the ratio of power between a fully clipped square wave and a clean sine wave of equal peak amplitude. (Ask a calculus teacher with physics/electronics knowledge to explain it with some graphs.) Adding some allowance for amp derating and inaccurate power measurement through indirect means, the numbers you think you're seeing aren't that surprising. I suspect you're not seeing exactly what you think, and that the indicated 300 W is more than that, and the 800-900 W reading less. TS > LS> grilles on my yamaha 4115-II's. With a balanced line TS > LS> i can push the mixer higher because i lifted the TS > LS> negative on the balanced xlr lines. Makes the mixer TS > Either your equipment doesn't use normal electronic design TS > or you're doing something that should give less headroom,TS > not more. LS> Well, in english, i ran unbalanced source to balanced LS> amps. This was why i could go higher on the master LS> out feeds from the mixer. I just did the wiring like LS> so: If you're saying that jumpering input low to ground on your amps changes the input sensitivity, then the amp circuit has a quirk. That doesn't make it a balanced feed. I thought before you had mentioned using a pro mixer with balanced line outs. With some exceptions, the line drivers commonly used offer 6 dB more headroom balanced than single ended on such pro gear. Input stage gain isn't affected by full balanced, floating differential, or unbalanced operation. Some designs are affected by other factors that can appear related, but require some circuit design background to understand. LS> RCA jack red positive, shield negative. XLR end, LS> ground not connected but LS> negative LS> from RCA shield goes to LS> negative LS> on XLR, or ring on 1/4" LS> plug. LS> Positive from rca goes to LS> tip of LS> 1/4 balanced or positive LS> of XLR plug. "Tip" and "Ring" are old telephone switchboard plug terms. They apply to the similar 1/4" plugs used in audio, but not to XLRs. There are two standards as to which of pins 2 & 3 are + or -, often thought of as the center pin + for the US, and the center pin - for Europe. Fun, fun. That's one reason many pros with good budget don't mix and match brands too much. Custom cables and setup are one thing in the studio, but a real PITA on the road. LS> I found a standardized conflict when i ran my Crown amps, my AudioPro LS> amps, and the new QSC amps i picked up. The Crown LS> wants the balanced 1/4" to have the positive on the LS> ring of the 1/4" plug. Same with the QSC. However, LS> the AudioPro amps want the positive on the 1/4" LS> balanced connectors to be the tip of the plug. Is LS> there a standard for connecting racks of amplifiers On 1/4" Tip should be +, so that ring can short - to sleeve in some jacks. For XLR, see above. There's not really a means of enforcement other than learning which vendors to not buy. LS> together out there? I have dealt with Yamaha LS> amplifiers connected with Crown connected with LS> AudioPro connected with QSC and i had to reverse the LS> phase on alot of banana jacks to get the sound LS> straight. That's propbably more practical, as if you swap amps, you'll have less of a mess with input cables wired alike, and some bannanas flipped. Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Do it near resonance! (203)732-0575 BPCN in CT (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2P00002 Date: 02/17/96 From: ERIC FERRON Time: 03:39am \/To: ROBERT BARON (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: R0DE Mics. Robert Baron exchanged theses thoughts on the Rode microphone RB> EF> It effectively look like a U-87 but sure doesn't sound like one... I RB> Kind of thought so :) Kind of a gimme, wasn't it!? RB>The AKG414 is not a bad mic either. Good for acoustic guitar and such. RB>Mics are a very personal taste. I will likely try many out before buying fr RB>anyone. Nope, 414 isn't bad either though AKG needs to do something with their mic line... Nothing is really done and my guess is they will be continuing to "freefall" in industry respect... As for mics being very personal, I think the same about studio monitors. I'll suggest and share thoughs, but will never tell you "this is the best..." I just don't believe it! RB> EF> As of personal experience, i like the sound though nothing like a U67 RB> EF> U87 or TLM170... I would put more in the Langevin style with better RB> I'm unfamiliar with the term "Langevin style"? Langevin is a microphone made by Manley Labs, and is also a U87 look_alike! RB>Where in Montreal are you? I will be there for 3 weeks in July this year. RB>Could stop in and see, talk and hear what you got. I'll be hanging out on t RB>south shore! My office is in the general area of Jean-Talon/Decarie, near the Julep Orange (you know the big orange ball you see while driving down Decarie!). I'll be more than happy to meet you. Give me a shout, july is usually quiet at the office so we'll have time to talk and see! RB>Salut! Pareillement! * SLMR 2.1a * Hey, mister, what are all these knobs for...? --- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 10 * Origin: XON/XOFF Information Service (1:12/159) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2Q00000 Date: 02/18/96 From: LASZLO SOKOLAI Time: 09:23pm \/To: YVES POIRIER (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: D.J.'s YP > LS> 600 was cancelled by yorkville. The rumor is from their plant that YP > the YP > LS> AP800 is coming. Dunno why when they already have YP > LS> the BETA 800 workhorse amps. The amps floating YP > LS> around out there are the older ap500's (no activity YP > LS> lights, just clip, protect and power leds), the newer YP > LS> ap500's (clip, activity, protect, power leds). The YP > LS> ap1200, 3000, 3400 watt models are still available and YP > LS> being sold like hotcakes to clubs and studios. Being YP > LS> chosen over bryston because audiopro amps are YP > LS> transparent as the Bryston classics and 3B NRB, and 3b- YP > LS> ST series. Cheap amps, but if you want bone rattling YP > LS> bass, you need 2 ap3000's to equal ONE QSC EX 4000 watt amp. YP > Alright I'm sorry but he is not looking for a 600... I made YP > a mistake, he is looking for a 1200. If you have one for YP > sale just leave me a message and I'll give it to him. YP > yvel rhythm YP > the rhythm rebel Well i have a few here, i will look and see if i can do without one of em. Laszlo Sokolai Team ANTI-Windows95/PRO-OS2/PRO-UNIX/PRO-XENIX/PRO-DOS lsokolai@bbs42.com lsokolai@albedo.net --- BBS 42 * Origin: BBS 42 Node 3 7.5 gigs (1:221/605) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: D2R00000 Date: 02/21/96 From: TIMOTHY TRACE Time: 12:45am \/To: LASZLO SOKOLAI (Read 4 times) Subj: Power Amps Hey, Laszlo! LS> The ap1200, 3000, 3400 watt models are still available and I've always liked the AP3000 - it's one hell of an amp when given the room to run. Awesome for a small-club provider or a DJ. Can't compete with VZ-5k's or MT2400's in 4ohm, though. ;') LS> Cheap amps, but if you want bone rattling bass, you need 2 ap3000's LS> to equal ONE QSC EX 4000 watt amp. Ummm..if you want "bone rattling bass", you'd better getcherself a pair of VZ-5ks and drive four Basstech 7's with 'em. On a dismal note for the EX4000, recently our company sublet racks and stacks to a Chattanooga provider and got the shit kicked out of our EX4000/4842 bottom end by their MT2400's driving Community VBS-415s. Ah, well. Live 'n learn, eh? And buy nothing but Crown for your bottom end. Do you get H.T.I.C.S.' used equipment list? I got mine today, and it was hilarious to see that Bill had described a MT10k as a "room air conditioner with binding posts"... L8z... Tim == --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: NeverLand V.34+, 5+ gig, 2 nodes, OS/2 - 24/7/365 (1:100/440.0)