--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2S00001 Date: 02/21/95 From: RICH KOERNER Time: 09:53am \/To: CHRIS BAUGH (Read 10 times) Subj: Studio Stuff!!! Hello Chris!! CB> RK> So far, we are turning heads. I've had our TEST TAPES played in > RK> other studios, to get opinions and advice. Some of them Can't > RK> Believe that these are DRY. No Effects! The Sonics and Room Image > RK> are Really "IN THERE". It took a Lot of Time and Playing with the > RK> Mics. CB>Rich, if you can take a break from the champagne, caviar and paparrazi >trying to sneak in to discover your studio secrets, how about telling >a bit about your techniques and equipment to create your special >sound? Well Chris, I Really don't know where to start. Maybe the thing to do is to is to review some things, break others into parts, keep things in General, or I'll be writing a BOOK!!! I'm asked to listen to Project Tapes, from time to time, to give advice and hints for improvements. Seems people are tracking me down lately. During some of these Listening sessions, I've asked people, "Why did you pick This Studio or That Studio, to record in.?" Most of the times, the answers sounded a little like this,............. "The *Room* in Studio________ has a Great _______Sounding ROOM!!!!!!!" Then, as we are listening to the MIX, I'll ask, "Where were the Mics Placed on the Drums, Guitar, Bass, etc........" Then I'd ask, "Were there any ROOM MICs Used?" Room Mic's? Yes, Room Mic's! Rich, You mean the two over-heads on the Drums? No, Room Mic's! As In Mic's for The ROOM! I'd say as we're Listening to the tape, "Hey Man, I DON'T Hear the Room, Do YOU?" Followed By, "Hey Rich, I'm a little LOST. What Is It, That I'm NOT HEARING?" Well, most of the time the Drums were CLOSE Mic'd. The Guitar was in another Room and CLOSE Mic'd, the Bass went Direct, Keys went Direct, and the Vocals CLOSE Mic'd in another separate Room. Well, There You Go!!!! You Never Had a Mic for the Room Sound!! Not to mention, some of the Instruments Were Never In The ROOM!! Sometimes when listening to a Mix, I'd get a Comment something like this: Hey Rich, we had this Killer Sound coming from the Guitar amp, like really Killer, but couldn't get it in the Control Room Monitors, or on the Tape. The Guitar Sound Sucks! What the Hell Happened??????? My approach to Capturing Sound, I guess, has to do with the way I Look, or rather Listen to Sound. It's really kind of like a 3D type of thing. There is a Vertical, a Horizontal, and the Depth. I try to MIX for THAT in my Mixes. In other words, RE-BUILD The ROOM in the MIX!!! To be able to do that you have to really pay attention to the Mic Placement in the Room to Capture the 3D Elements of the room. This can be done a couple of ways. One way, is with one Mic that captures both the Instrument and the Room at the Same Time. Or, one Mic for the Instrument & one Mic for the Instrument IN The ROOM. Mic's DON'T HEAR Sound in 3D. It's a 1D thing. Your Ears HEAR in 3D! The Answer is in using Multi Mic Arrangements. That's why the Killer Sounding Guitar NEVER MADE IT to the Control Room! There are MANY AMAZING THINGS going on when we LISTEN to SOUND. The function of the Outer Ear, Inner Ear, to the Way the Brain Interprets this Complex Information through this Little Opening We All HEAR Through! I Developed this Learning Experiment years ago to help a friend of mine get a Handle, on THE ROOM, that He Didn't HEAR! Do this with a friend or two. You will need the following: 1 empty room with bare walls. Cement or Cinder block is the best. 1 room about the same size but with Sonex All over the Walls. 1 Speaker Monitor and program source. 1 Paper tube, like those use with X-mas wrapping paper. Approx. 3'long. The setup for My "FIND THE SPEAKER" Game is: 1. Blindfold on person in an office chair with wheels.. 2. Put an Ear Plug in one of His ears. 3. Locate the Monitor anywhere in the Room. High, Low, Left, etc. 4. Spin and Move around the Room the person in the Chair for 2min. till He Doesn't Know Where in the ROOM He is!! 5. Play Program Music through the monitor for 15 seconds then stop. 6. Without Him Moving the Chairs Location, He may spin around in it, (Continued from previous message) (Continued to next message) * SLMR 2.1a * --- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 5 Beta * Origin: Westfield DataLine * Westfield NJ * 1-908-654-3178 (1:107/912) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2S00002 Date: 02/21/95 From: RICH KOERNER Time: 09:53am \/To: BONNIE GOODWIN (Read 10 times) Subj: Pzm'S BG> I've been using PZMs since long before Crown started making them.. the BG>Pres BG>Zone Microphone approach can be used with almost any microphone as long as BG>t BG>element is in close enough proximity to a boundary. I used to use BG>Electrovoice BG>RE-15s with a "cheese slice" which would position the microphone element BG>very BG>close to the stage in the pressure zone. Hi Bonnie! I downloaded all the posts that I could get from My BBS's link to this conference and came across this post of yours. Bonnie, after a very long Retirement from the Live Sound & Recording Studio Field, I'm back into it and I've found a lot of New Things have appeared. I've used my first PZM mike about 1 month ago. Worked Very well for Big Kick sounds. I'm not up on the latest terms used in todays circles. What is a "cheese slice"? Would that be the modern version of the folded cheese cloth over the wire coat hanger in front of the mike trick from the old days? BTW, The PZM I used was a Shure mic, don't remember the model Number of it. Sorry! Must be getting old. Could you recommend some others PZM's that may be good to try out. I'm wondering about the technique used with the PZM's for Over-Heads on the drum kits. Never would have thought of using them for the drums. (have used AKG's and 81's for that job recently.) Keep in mind that the PE-54's were the Hot mikes for Vocals when I dropped out of the Sound Game. Since I got back into It, I've been feeling my way through all these "New Things" used today! Would you also be able to recommend a Good Book that I could use to bring me up to "Todays" *Standards and Practices*, for Both LIVE Sound & the Recording Studio? I need a handy Ready Reference Book. BTW, I can't believe what a Fairchild Tube Compressor sells for today!! Your Advice would be really Welcomed! Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. * SLMR 2.1a * --- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 5 Beta * Origin: Westfield DataLine * Westfield NJ * 1-908-654-3178 (1:107/912) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2S00003 Date: 02/21/95 From: RICH KOERNER Time: 09:53am \/To: RICK BLOCH (Read 10 times) Subj: Studio Stuff!!! Hi Rick! RB> RK> The Only Negative Comments we have gotten so far is that, "People ar > RK> so used to the Processed Recordings, That they will think there is > RK> something WRONG with Yours". RB> This is very true...too many recordings are heavily processed, with > artificially generated sounds. Most of the processing done in a > recording studio will go un-noticed by the uneducated listener, which > a good majority of the population. But the good news is, natural > recordings are becoming a much sought after product. There are a new > bunch of purists with a great appreciation for well-recorded, natural > sounding recordings. If you are capable of doing great sounding > recordings out of the recording studio, your talents would be much sou > after by independants who want high quality, without paying the big bu > that go along with it. Thanks for telling me that. I'm glad that there are some people out there that can enjoy the REAL Sounds of Music!!!! That was always the Goal back when I started. Thanks, and Best Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. * SLMR 2.1a * Tagline --- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 5 Beta * Origin: Westfield DataLine * Westfield NJ * 1-908-654-3178 (1:107/912) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2S00004 Date: 02/19/95 From: TITUS CHEUNG Time: 11:26pm \/To: JOE BEELS (Read 10 times) Subj: You and JBL JB> *** Quoting Titus Cheung to Bonnie Goodwin dated 01-29-95 JB> *** JB> > I think this is true since JBL claims that over 80% of the theaters and JB> > studios, not over 80% of home users. JB> > JB> Titus...I may not look like Bonnie but....I've used lots of JB> different manufacturers speakers and horns/drivers over my JB> 25 years of audio work. The majority of my work has been JB> live sound support.. My current system is all JBL.... After JB> using everything else I prefer JBL... Point is I think it's JB> a matter of what you like to hear... JB> --- T.A.G. 2.7c Beta JB> * Origin: The Music Connection..the original since 1987 JB> (1:106/1000) Oh, did I miss something when I was typing the message last time? I thought I also said that people like JBL may not because of it's capability of delivering the sound from the amp to your ears without adding it's own signature. I think I wrote people like JBL because they like JBL's sound. In order words, people like JBL's very own sound. People like music that sounds musical instead of true original. And that's true. --- FMail 0.96 * Origin: The Discovery BBS (1:153/953) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2S00005 Date: 02/19/95 From: TITUS CHEUNG Time: 11:32pm \/To: TOM MCGEE (Read 10 times) Subj: You and JBL TM> TM> >> They say JBL speakers TM> sound good, but does it neccessary mean that JBL speakers TM> reproducing what TM> the original is like? Or will it be better to say that JBL TM> speakers intro- TM> duces artifacts into the audio signal to make certain TM> unpleasant sounding TM> equipment to sound good? << TM> TM> Titus, JBL makes mighty fine pro-audio speakers. They are TM> efficient, dependable, and as you've mentioned....the choice TM> for demanding applications like theatres and recording TM> studios. I used them for many years in sound reinforcement TM> application for bands and groups and liked them better than TM> any of the other gear that was available at the time. TM> TM> BTW.....I am not at all impressed with their consumer TM> products line. TM> TM> --- MacWoof 1.5.3 TM> * Origin: Tom's BBS - Braintree, Mass. (617) 356-3538 TM> (1:101/470.1@fidonet) Um... may be that's the problem. I've heard mostly JBL consumer stuff but none of their pro stuff. Probably they really sucks at consumer level products and good at the pros. But still, I won't consider it to be that great. I've recently looking for subs and have found that in order to use a JBL sub, I need an 15" to 18" one with an enclosure of the size of about 5 to 10 cubic feet. And it still can't go to the lowest part of the audio spectrum. Moreover, the distortion of it was quite high too. I was comparing it against Velodyne ULD series powered servo subs. See the diff? I guess one of the reasons that people like JBL is also because most of the experienced pros compared JBL and other manufacturers long time ago and put all those better manufacturers(new ones) aside. So they always think that JBL is better but actually someone is already better than they're. --- FMail 0.96 * Origin: The Discovery BBS (1:153/953) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2S00006 Date: 02/21/95 From: MARK SHANDER Time: 02:11am \/To: BARRY BURKE (Read 10 times) Subj: Neve 55-Series BB> MS> The 55-series is starting to disappoint me...but it IS a Neve.... BB> Usually the "N" word is enough to draw quite a few BB> bookings to the room. BB> That's TRUE! And believe it or not, I use it to mix our newscast with a stereo soundstage. --- FMail/386 0.98 * Origin: The Broadcaster's BBS - PRO_AUDIO Echo Host (1:114/91) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2T00000 Date: 02/21/95 From: TITUS CHEUNG Time: 06:15pm \/To: CRAIG ARNATT (Read 9 times) Subj: Surround sound, etc. CA> The new Dolby Digital Theater Surround Sound System kept oh CA> so hush hush CA> until the patents kicked in, uses the space between the CA> sprocket holes CA> on the film stock to record square digital matrix images CA> that contains 6 CA> tracks of audio. This ingenious use of a forgotten space on CA> mag stock is CA> a far easier than dealing with time code based external CA> units. The CA> matrix images are read by special decoder units (go figure) CA> attached to CA> existing projectors. -and of coarse Dolby gets a royalty CA> each time it's CA> used! Denifinitely simpler and surely it will sound better if using the information between the sprocket holes. However, most theaters use DTS because they're cheaper and they know most people doesn't care about the sound quality. Except probably a few would have complained about Jurassic Park's harlyness due to equipment clipping. --- FMail 0.96 * Origin: The Discovery BBS (1:153/953) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2T00001 Date: 02/21/95 From: TITUS CHEUNG Time: 06:19pm \/To: MICHAEL HARRIS (Read 9 times) Subj: Speaker enclosure design software * In a message originally to Everybody, Michael Harris said: MH> Can anybody recommend a speaker enclosure design program MH> (preferably MH> shareware, of course). If so, where might it be found? MH> Thanks in advance. MH> Mike Harris MH> --- Maximus 2.02 MH> * Origin: Mountain Retreat (1:216/506) I have a bbs opened in Vancouver that's specialize in audio and electronics and I have a few loudspeaker design programs up there. One of them is called PERF box and it's a good one. My number is (604) 327-0893 open 10am to 4pm everday PST. --- FMail 0.96 * Origin: The Discovery BBS (1:153/953) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2T00002 Date: 02/20/95 From: STEVE MILSTEAD Time: 08:46pm \/To: ALL (Read 9 times) Subj: Klipsch Howdy All! I am contemplating buying a pair of Klipsch Heresy II speakers, and an Onkyo 80 watt stereo integrated amp to provide background music and occasional primary entertainment in a 20' x 30' adobe room with abundant hard surfaces. Seems I should be able to pick this equipment up new for less than a grand. Can anyone comment on price and/or a good source? This will be a commercial application. For that matter, how about sugestions of "better for the same or less money." I am very interested in the Camber speakers, manufactured in Canada, but I haven't any idea where to buy them. I like NAD amplifiers, but I don't know if I can get one of comparable specs/price to the Onkyo. Recommendations? Best wishes, Sfm --- GoldED 2.40 * Origin: LittleBend * 24 Hrs * (915) 345-2135 (1:381/136) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 200 PRO AUDIO Ref: C2U00000 Date: 02/22/95 From: BONNIE GOODWIN Time: 02:17pm \/To: RICH KOERNER (Read 10 times) Subj: PZM'S Hi Rich! Well, "cheeze slice" is a term I came up with. EV first marketed the approach of pressure zone mics by taking existing designs (RE-15, 635D etc outline) and put it into some acoustically transparent foam and called it a Mic "mouse", I took regular thick foam rubber and cut it into "cheese slices", put a angle down the front and a slit down the center for the mic to fit into. Worked out better in the particular application, helping to block sounds from the orchestra on the other side of the stage lip that I was using as the boundary. The idea here is to get the capsule as close as possible to the stage without actually touching physically, shock isolating the capsule from foot stompings and still be fairly low profile. Crown holds most of the patents for this stuff and has the largest line of PZM designs. One called a SASS which can take either their elements or B&K-4001s is a dual PZM design doing the "human head" thing which is VERY good for stereo imagry which I want to use for remote recording. I've heard of the Shure whatever's but haven't tried them out yet.. wonder how they got around patents on this. I've seen a couple of other "close" technology by a couple of other manufacturers too. My biggest problem with using PZM (Crown now) or any condenser around drums is the possibility of overloading the mics. The SASS in an overhead position (just above the drummer's head) or a pair of PZMs mounted at right angles (you decide whether the mics to be on the inside or the outside of the right angle) is another way I've done it. What ticks me off more than anything else in most drum mixes is monaural overheads! They deserve some stereoness!! You used a PZM for a fat kick drum sound.. That works for me. Maybe a few highlighting mics on the snare and here and there of a traditional type and you have the kit covered. As far as getting back up to speed, check with Mix Bookshelf for recent books, MIX, Sound and Video Contractor, EQ, Pro Sound News, NAMM and others are good sources for info on the current state of the art. I spend a lot of time going through the AES ASA and IEEE and others journals out there just trying to be one step ahead of what they are going to spring on us next. If you have excellent microphone to line level analog experience, then you will find that shortly everything other than that is going digital and then you are dealing with computer networks, telecommunications, backup and other network adminsistrator position of most small companies. I can't believe what they get for those Fairchilds myself.. Have used one only once many years ago and wasn't overly impressed with it as I recall, have use the LA2,3,4 UREIs quite a bit but my all time favorite compressor/peak limiter is the Spectrasonics 610. But the next major change in studios is central equipment rooms, computer networks and getting everything into digital as soon as possible and leave it there as long as possible. Fortunately, I saw this coming many years ago and have been studying ever since trying to be ready for all of this stuff! Hope I've been of some help to you. Would love to write more but have to get going! Bonnie *:> --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: SIREN Multimedia 10+GB/12CDs/V.32 916-486-2963 (1:203/11)