------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. REAL names are preferred in this echo. If your BBS software will not allow you to change your name, then think about signing your real name to your messages. If you are using an pseudonym and a problem arises and I attempt to reach out for you but can not contact you due to the use of the pseudonym, your access may be forfeit. Please make sure your SysOp knows how to find you by your pseudonym. 2. No profanity. It is not required to make your point known. 3. No flames or inflammatory posts. Being topically controversial is one thing but when the line is crossed and controversial becomes a deliberate attempt to raise the sensitivity of others, warnings will be forth coming. Continued violations will get the violator's conference privileges revoked for a period of time suitable for the violation. This at the discretion of the Moderator. Personal attacks on fellow conference members are neither needed, sought, nor tolerated. 4. Personal disagreements will be taken to Netmail by participants. If Netmail is unavailable to the participants, the argument will be dropped. 5. Violations of conference rules will generate a polite response in the echo for a first offense. A second offense will, where possible, result in a NetMail warning being issued to the violator and the SysOp of the originating system. Further violations will result in potential loss of conference privileges, as determined by the moderator. System turn around, where applicable and recognizable, will be considered in such cases. Please be advised that there are certain Red Flag violations that fall under common sense guidelines that can get a user's access cut immediately, for instance the use of this echo to promote illegal activity, ie, the pandering of contraband like kiddie porn, etc. 6. Discussions are to remain within the topic of the conference. The moderator will be the sole judge of what is and is not on topic. Subjects that easily fall outside the realm of the topic, ie drug laws and fire arms topics WILL be kept to how they are DIRECTLY effected by ENFORCEMENT of the law. Please remember, LEO's are law enforcers, not law makers. The moderator will make all attempts to keep the conference open but if a string is declared off topic, all conference members are expected to concede the issue and take all additional commentary to NETMAIL. 7. Response to Moderators' messages will be made by NETMAIL only, response will not be made in the echo. Discussions dealing with the moderation of this conference are off topic within the conference itself. As stated above, I am open to discussions on the conference's rules [when done in netmail] and have already changed them more then once due to input from the conference's users, for instance, pseudonyms didn't use to be allowed in the conference. If you disagree with the rules in some way, and I find your presentation and reasons to be sound, it may very well happen again. TO ALL ASKACOP PARTICIPANTS: This conference is dedicated to the exchange of information between law enforcement professionals and the public they protect and serve. The current moderator of this conference is Paul Harney. I can be reached at 1:2630/321. However, the guy to call first is Tom Rightmer, at 1:385/20 as Tom is responsible for the day to day moderation of this conference. Policy is to try and maintain as open a conference as possible so as to allow for maximum exchange of information, while still maintaining the conference's topical integrity. Please assist in this endeavor by keeping your posts on topic and valuing the right of your fellow conference members to have an opinion, if not the opinion itself. If you have questions I or Tom am always available via Netmail to be of any assistance I can. If you want to introduce a topic you think is important but aren't sure as to its topicity, then NETMAIL me with your idea and we'll work on it together. I am also open to well thought out suggestions regarding the conference and how it might be improved. Rants though are appended to file >NULL. I very much consider this experiment in mutually beneficial communication to be a partnership we all have a stake in. Yours in that partnership, Paul H. Moderator --- Rise and be counted * Origin: (1:2630/321) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00029 Date: 04/13/98 From: BOB RUDOLPH Time: 08:12am \/To: RYAN BAGUEROS (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: racism in amerikkka ('m remote, so my quoter is offline. While it ammay appear that most property crime is committed by poor people, I'm not so certain that that is valid. Most property crime committed against poorp people is committed by poor people - but I can assure you that the burglars that work the suburbs aren't poor. I live in a police ddepartment, so I know all too well that cops don't get a free ride - on the contrary, they are scrutinized far closer than you are. There may be a bad cop or so around, and theyre may be abuses (but show me a profession in which they don't occur) but inm the main they are held to a far harder standrar. Damn backspace doesn't work either. Oh well.... --- AdeptXBBS v1.11z (FREEWare/2) * Origin: CopShop AdeptXBBS (1:261/3050) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00030 Date: 04/12/98 From: GLENN VERMETTE Time: 09:50pm \/To: BARBARA MCNAY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Stay Away! *** Quoting Barbara McNay to All *** BM> Say, I have a question for you folks. Occasionally, I stop at BM> the side of a highway in a rural area among flat, treeless or BM> bushless fields, for various reasons. Sometimes the reason is BM> car trouble, and in that case I appreciate it when somebody stops BM> to help. Sometimes, though, I not only do not need help, I BM> don'twant anybody to approach. Let's say I've got to go, or BM> freshen up, and have the necessaries for accomplishing this BM> without getting out of the car. How, in a case like this, can I BM> make the would-be good Samaritan understand, even before he gets BM> out of his car, if possible, that I want privacy, not help? Yes. If you don't want people to stop and see if you need help, then don't stop on the side of the highway to do your "freshening up". Do it at home before you leave, go to a gas station, or wait until you get home. Most decent people who see someone stopped on the side of the road in a rural area, in the middle of nowhere, assume you just might need help...so if you don't...then don't give them the impression that you do......pretty simple when you just think about it isn't it?? --- * Origin: The Smell Of Bacon II (1:340/210) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00031 Date: 04/12/98 From: GLENN VERMETTE Time: 09:52pm \/To: TOM RIGHTMER (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Obedience To Orders Of Police And Fi21:52:2104/12/98 *** Quoting Tom Rightmer to Glenn Vermette *** TR> I misunderstood and apologize. It is sometimes difficult to get TR> to know TR> someone in an echo simply from their messages. The missing TR> gestures, voice TR> inflections, volume, body language, and facial expressions TR> sometimes lead to TR> the wrong conclusion, something I was just guilty of. Or, maybe I TR> just TR> didn't read your message closely enough. I apologize and TR> appreciate your TR> participation in the echo. No need to apologize Tom...there isn't anything you could say that would offend me....I'm not a little delicate egg shell like some people.... --- * Origin: The Smell Of Bacon II (1:340/210) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00032 Date: 04/13/98 From: ALAN RACKMILL Time: 09:38am \/To: GLENN VERMETTE (Read 0 times) Subj: Legality of Commandeering cars Glenn Vermette wrote in a message to Barbara McNay: GV> *** Quoting Barbara McNay to Glenn Vermette *** BM> > Sigh..........!!!!!!!! BM> BM> Not a very enlightening answer. Is any citizen entitled to say, BM> "Not in MY car, you don't"? If not, what would it take, and how BM> long, to convince a cop that ready transportation really was not BM> available from me? My car does not have special equipment or BM> identifying features. Don't sigh again, please. Thinking does BM> not enable us to know laws, police procedures or any other BM> specialized, unfamiliar or unexperienced thing. GV> You're right...however I ask none of this...just that you GV> think and use common sence...that is all...no more...no GV> less. Bottom line is if your the only available car at the GV> time, and the cop really needs it, then he's not going to GV> wait for you to get your walker out, he's not going to wait GV> to listen to your story. There will be no debate, no GV> argument, you'll just be out, and that's it. You'll have GV> the rest of your life to complain, write letters, sue, stomp GV> your feet, cry, get mad or whatever else you like......and GV> in the end if you being out on your ass on the ground for a GV> while resulted in someone who just murdered a wife or child GV> or whatever being caught and arrested, then I'd hope you'd GV> also have the common sence to realize that although it may GV> not have been a very comfortable experience for you, that it GV> was necessary, and understand why it was necessary....as I'm GV> sure the family of the murdered child would understand and GV> be appreciative.....unfortunatley though, few people, and GV> obviously yourself included, even with the luxury of time to GV> think about it, still can't comprehend what possible reason GV> the cop would need to take your car without having a half GV> hour debate about it with you first....and that is the GV> reason why you get the: Sigh......!!!!! Glenn, we can comprehend why it might be necessary for a cop to want to take our vehicle in order to chase a felon. But you don't seem to comprehend our problems here. Barbara sounds like she has the same type of problem getting out of a car that I do: It can take an inordinately long time. I am severely limited im range of motion and mobility. Normally it takes me approximately 30 seconds to get out of my car. That is on a good day, when everything is working in good order. There are times, though, when it can take me two minutes to unbuckle and physically get out of the car. It thecop who wants to comandeer my car wants me top move any faster than that, he is going to have to physically pull me from the car. And I don't carte if he is chasing Attilla the Hun, that will bring about a nice law suit, and you know as well as I do that I would win. Or Barbara. Or whoever it is done to. Remember, "common sense" has to work on both sides -- the LEO and the ALC. Alan Team OS/2, Fidonet 1:107/101, ibmNET 40:4371/101, OS2NET 80:135/15 internet: alanrackmill@mindspring.com --- timEd/2 1.01 * Origin: The Maven's Roost * MAX/2 * WARP * v.34 1-908-821-4533 1:107/101) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00033 Date: 04/13/98 From: TOM RIGHTMER Time: 01:58pm \/To: SCOTT MCQUILKIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Legality of Commandeering SM> Bottom line..No Sworn LEO takes my vehicle SM> as I'd be filing theft charges against the LEO and their department, SM> especially if there was forced entry as described above..regardless SM> of what type of incident it was..for, guess what.. The bottom line is that you would be in jail for disobeying a lawful order, and the police officer would commandeer your vehicle anyway. If there was any harm done to your vehicle, it would be repaired by the City or entity that commandeered it. Your theft charges would be filed in the closest garbage can. Tom Rightmer - A Victims' Rights Advocate ... Never, never, never *MOON* a werewolf !! --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: 357 MAGNUM *Lawton, OK* 405-536-5032 (1:385/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00034 Date: 04/13/98 From: MARK RACIBORSKI Time: 02:34pm \/To: GLENN VERMETTE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Legality of Commandee I'm new so i'm unsure of how to quote, but this is in responce to your agreeing with a officer taking your car for his use, i'm sorry but there would be no way in hell i would let anyone take my car out, if i had to i'd lock the keys in the trunk just for the sole purpose of him not being able to take it. Police kill a enitre power train to a car, their 'driving' course claims its ok to shift a Chevy Carpices Classic tranmission frmo reverse to 1st, 2nd, Drive or Overdrive at up to 15 mph. THe Carpice uses a 700turbo tranny and is one of the heavyest units avaliable and even it cant take the force of repeated ABUSE like that. You say you can sue and write letters, what good would that do if the judges are all paided by the city, as well as the officers? of course the judge will side with the officer and you'll be screwed out of what was a good car, as well as payments for a new transmission, and probably body work. Thats why i'd refuse or as i said, lock my keys in the trunk. ALso an alterative for those that own GM products like me, is the On-Star system, where you could let the officer take your car, but pull out your ol' cell phone, call the GM On-star # enter your persnnal code and have it send the code to the car that kills the engine and locks the doors and wont restart until the code is rentered, this is a 4000 dollar extra feature on Gm cars by the way. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Lancor's BBS Hampton, VA. (757) 726-2511 (1:271/370.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00035 Date: 04/13/98 From: MARK RACIBORSKI Time: 02:39pm \/To: SCOTT MCQUILKIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Legality of Commandee I agree with you totally, police officers abuse the cars they have why give them someone elses to strip out the gears in? Every weekend at the local Ford dealership there is atleast 3 Crown Vics siting at the garage bay waiting repairs. -> Well.. I tell ya one thing, I'd be driving my car *NOT* the Sworn LE -> if he wished to file a complaint for me being in my car, thats fine -> I'd know it was in one piece. I know from first hand experience what -> happens on chases where such a senerio kills the vehicle used, no -> thanks, they can destroy the cars paid for by tax payer money as the -> are fully Insured when their driven, not private citizens vehicles. -> -> Bottom line..No Sworn LEO takes my vehicle as I'd be filing theft -> charges against the LEO and their department, especially if there wa -> forced entry as described above..regardless of what type of incident -> was..for, guess what.. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Lancor's BBS Hampton, VA. (757) 726-2511 (1:271/370.0) Hi Ryan, as you were just saying about Re: racism in amerikkka.... RB> RT> Why don't we focus on what makes folks shoot each other? If we can RB> RT> find ways to fix some of that, makes no difference, white, black or RB> RT> in between. RB> RB> Okay, so what do you think it is? I personally see the root RB> problem as being poverty. I agree that it is part of it. Education, future hopes, job possibilities, inability to leave, marital values, family values (other than marriage) are also parts of it. There is lot more I have left out. RB> In what neighborhoods do you find the RB> most property crime? The most claims of police brutality? Without a RB> doubt, it is universally the poor neighborhoods. Is that too much RB> of a coincidence for you? Why try to pick a fight when there isn't one there? RB> RB> because this nation is founded on racism, from the slave-owning RB> RB> Founding Fathers (who were quite rich in their own right) RB> RB> RT> Not all of them. RB> RB> Haha, that's truly funny.. to defend the racist Founding RB> Fathers, you say that RB> only "some of them" were slave-owners. The rest of them are racist RB> just for putting up with it. I didn't defend anybody. I simply stated that all the Founding Fathers were not rich (or didn't you completely read your own statement?) RB> RT> There are bad apples everywhere. There were (and still are) a lot RB> RT> more racist folks out there who are not cops than there are who are. RB> RB> RB> And it gets even better! Now you are saying that the undeniable RB> fact of a racist police apparatus running rampant for decades and RB> decades in this country is the work of "bad apples" ... RB> RB> I think I'm beginning to understand your perspective. Complete RB> denial. Not as much as yours is. I, at least, recognize that there are more than one type of person out there, you don't. RD sandman@azstarnet.com http://www.azstarnet.com/~sandman A well-educated Congress being necessary for the governing of a free state, the right of the people to read and write books shall not be infringed. ___ X KWQ/2 1.2i X Power corrupts! (Absolute power, though, is kinda neat.) --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: DPSystem:4285 OS2-WARPED 520-290-8418 USR V.e+ (1:300/105) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00036 Date: 04/13/98 From: RD THOMPSON Time: 06:03pm \/To: RYAN BAGUEROS (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: racism in amerikkka Hi Ryan, as you were just saying about Re: racism in amerikkka.... RB> RT> Why don't we focus on what makes folks shoot each other? If we can RB> RT> find ways to fix some of that, makes no difference, white, black or RB> RT> in between. RB> RB> Okay, so what do you think it is? I personally see the root RB> problem as being poverty. I agree that it is part of it. Education, future hopes, job possibilities, inability to leave, marital values, family values (other than marriage) are also parts of it. There is lot more I have left out. RB> In what neighborhoods do you find the RB> most property crime? The most claims of police brutality? Without a RB> doubt, it is universally the poor neighborhoods. Is that too much RB> of a coincidence for you? Why try to pick a fight when there isn't one there? RB> RB> because this nation is founded on racism, from the slave-owning RB> RB> Founding Fathers (who were quite rich in their own right) RB> RB> RT> Not all of them. RB> RB> Haha, that's truly funny.. to defend the racist Founding RB> Fathers, you say that RB> only "some of them" were slave-owners. The rest of them are racist RB> just for putting up with it. I didn't defend anybody. I simply stated that all the Founding Fathers were not rich (or didn't you completely read your own statement?) RB> RT> There are bad apples everywhere. There were (and still are) a lot RB> RT> more racist folks out there who are not cops than there are who are. RB> RB> RB> And it gets even better! Now you are saying that the undeniable RB> fact of a racist police apparatus running rampant for decades and RB> decades in this country is the work of "bad apples" ... RB> RB> I think I'm beginning to understand your perspective. Complete RB> denial. Not as much as yours is. I, at least, recognize that there are more than one type of person out there, you don't. RD sandman@azstarnet.com http://www.azstarnet.com/~sandman A well-educated Congress being necessary for the governing of a free state, the right of the people to read and write books shall not be infringed. ___ X KWQ/2 1.2i X Power corrupts! (Absolute power, though, is kinda neat.) --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: DPSystem:4285 OS2-WARPED 520-290-8418 USR V.e+ (1:300/105) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F5G00037 Date: 04/13/98 From: RD THOMPSON Time: 06:13pm \/To: BOB RUDOLPH (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: STREET PEOPLE Hi Bob, as you were just saying about Re: STREET PEOPLE.... BR> RT> FWIW, I think that there are racist individuals in the criminal BR> RT> justice system. I do not think that the entire justice system is BR> RT> racist. I think the reason that you see proportionally more blacks BR> RT> (per population) in prisons than whites is more that crime is prevalent BR> RT> in poorer areas than it is in wealthier areas. Those poorer areas BR> RT> happen to be predominately minority. Does this mean that minorities BR> RT> cause more crime? No, it means that socio-economic conditions breed BR> RT> crime. Fix those conditions and crime rates drop. BR> BR> While I think you might have something here, I wonder why the BR> effect isn't consistent across all enclaves of minorities (thinking BR> here of orientals) - or maybe I don't, since the orientals seem to BR> have strong familial ties and work together as extended families. Begorrah, you are on to something. Family values (and by that I do't mean just a mommy and a daddy) have been declining for years. Many kids today have absolutely no remorse for any trouble or pain that they cause. Thankfully, there are a great many of them who still do. BR> I believe that the crime problem is more related to the rise in BR> bastardy, the increasing numbers of children being born to children BR> with no effect parent of either sex on the scene than in outright BR> poverty, because in some cities there are no poorer areas than BR> those in which the vietnamese live, ane yet they're the safest BR> places for a persn to be. I agree. I was just addressing poor areas in general, not in specifics. BR> The demise of the family almost always presages a rise in crime. BR> Perhaps the most appropriate question to ask is where the family BR> structure went in the areas affected, and what we can do to BR> encourage that the damage be undone - I may disagree with you with the definition of structure. I don't agree that it must be an opposite sex family. The main thing is that it is structured, strong and gives the correct values on intereacting in society for the kids to live by. BR> ....not the race of the folks in BR> the area, because the race isn't really particularly interesting. Nor is it the main problem. RD sandman@azstarnet.com http://www.azstarnet.com/~sandman A well-educated Congress being necessary for the governing of a free state, the right of the people to read and write books shall not be infringed. ___ X KWQ/2 1.2i X She won't last forever........why give her a diamond? --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: DPSystem:4285 OS2-WARPED 520-290-8418 USR V.e+ (1:300/105)