--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00022 Date: 03/19/98 From: DON BOX Time: 06:18am \/To: RICH WILLBANKS (Read 1 times) Subj: TEENAGE SMOKING RW> Now before you, or anyone else, starts jumping on me about how RW> Germany and the US are so different remember that the anniversary RW> of a "small incident" in Vietnam involving US troops is upon us. RW> Ever read the history of My Lai? Discovery Channel has a regular program called American Justice. It covers anything and everything about the US Legal system... murderers, rapists... con-men, prisons, firebugs, police corruption, courts; anything concerned with the legal system itself. Last night the subject was about innocent people (proven) who'd been coerced into signing confessions by local LEO, or beaten into signing confessions, or had been railroaded by doctored evidence. I was pretty amazed but not surprised as case after case was focused on, where innocent people had been deliberately incarcerated for many years; all because the enforcement parties concerned didn't have a suspect in a high-profile case and needed to satisfy the cravings of the public or a prosceutor wanting political leverage. One even made it to Congress until he got caught in a check-kiting scam. They weren't talking about Vinnie, Bubba, and Bruno crying about being sent up the river for the third for fourth time... the highlighted cases were people who'd not been in trouble with the law, or had only a few minor incidents before. In one case which happened in the deep South, about ten or fifteen black men had been beaten with saps, until someone "confessed." Most of them had never had legal problems before. DNA had reversed all of the cases. While the victims of these "legal" miscarriages were interviewed on camera, well after their releases from prison, those who drove them into the belly of the beast refused to comment, explain themselves or even face the camera. Actually, they scattered, covering their heads with their hands and coats... funny, a different channel and program about the "Travelers" provoked the same reaction. People scattering like cockroaches caught when the light turns on. I remember Lt. Calley and Mai Lai. I also remember the people involved with the chain of command above him seemed to not "have anything do do with it." I still have Vet friends dealing with demons from the past. Many of them still live under overpasses. Seems like our military doesn't want to deal with the responsibility of the monster it created. No, I don't think ZT is a good thing. The American people have a formidable enough enemy to deal with as it stands; wouldn't be wise to make it a stronger beast. DB --- * RM 1.31 3089 * I love my country but am embarrassed by my government. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Computer One BBS (818) 763-0678 - bbsinfo@comp1.com (1:102/836.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00023 Date: 03/19/98 From: D.E. BRYANT Time: 03:51pm \/To: RICH WILLBANKS (Read 1 times) Subj: Humane Society -> -> Also I get a lot of strange looks when I tell people -> -> raising kids is just like training an animal. You have -> -> to teach right and correct them when they screw up when -> -> they are young or when they get older they will be out -> -> of control. If I raised my dogs the way some people -> -> raise their kids I'd be knee deep in doggie poo and -> -> covered with bites. Then again if people raised their -> -> kids like I train my dogs (and raise my kids) the world -> -> would be a much better place. IMNSHO of course ;). -> -> DeB> It may be even as you say, sir. Your children would be -> DeB> well-disciplined--and likely the methods used would fester -> DeB> subconsciously and reveal itself as so much inner resentment -> -> Nope. You must be using some method that is reassuring to the offspring if, as you suggest, there is no negative response in the children at all. -> DeB> later on. Discipline is wonderful for both children and -> DeB> pets...and so is an abundance of overt love and affection. -> DeB> Far too often, the two are not thought mixable. -> Which is the same way you have to treat animals. You -> can beat kids or animals in to submission and they will -> do what you want. But only when you are there, when -> you aren't they revert back. You are saying that you enrich discipline with overt love and affection then? I do not want to presume. -> Now I would hear them telling people about how well -> their kid was doing in school and what a good kid he -> was, never in any trouble. You guessed it, when ever -> he was out he was out of control. He'd drive too fast, -> he'd drink, he'd do drugs, he'd screw almost anything -> that would let him (and at least one who didn't want to -> let him which lead to a rape charge). -> -> He finally self destructed. It hit an overpass support -> doing over 100 mph. His family called it an accident -> but I have always wondered if it was suicide. [snip] This is tragic; how old was the fellow at the time of death? In some ways I can empathize with the extreme behavior the fellow indulged. Obviously trying to get his folks to notice, maybe find a way to reach out. No go, it seems. Parents are either your best friends or your greatest, most perilous enemies. In my case, I set a goal. I needed to just endure until I completed high school. That done, I was straightaway out the door and on my own. It is unfortunate the fellow wasn't able to look to his future without his parent's direct influence. But I can see that that kind of scenario can have life-long effects; there seems ALWAYS to be authority figures wielding power and it is effortless to fall back into the same patterns. Ah well, I have no remedy to offer except some empathy. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Computer One BBS (818) 763-0678 - bbsinfo@comp1.com (1:102/836.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00024 Date: 03/19/98 From: D.E. BRYANT Time: 04:08pm \/To: RICH WILLBANKS (Read 1 times) Subj: Police Recruits -> DeB> 300 lbs on a 6'[+] build? You sound like the small-town -> DeB> southern sheriff portrayed in "My Cousin Vinnie". I mean no -> DeB> offense, but isn't all of that weight a detriment? No -> DeB> agility...always the risk of a heart attack...[as mentioned] -> DeB> a very convenient target. -> -> Depends on how the 300# is made up. Most people don't -> know it but a volume of muscle weighs more then the -> same volume of fat. You can have two 300 pounders; one -> will look like the Pilsbury dough boy and the other -> like Arnold. Yes, I know of the volume to weight ratios. :) Nonetheless, even if much of it was sheer muscle there is still a likelihood of limited agility & maneuverability. If you aren't fat, then you must possess a naturally beefy and muscle-responsive body to move a hardcore bodybuilder to head-shaking envy. I am 6'6 and 218. During my college years I knew fellows at 6'7/270. They were massive. I cannot imagine someone a bit over 6 feet and 300. [Of course, you did not mention your exact height. Care to give more exact stats to satisfy curiosity?] --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Computer One BBS (818) 763-0678 - bbsinfo@comp1.com (1:102/836.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00025 Date: 03/19/98 From: D.E. BRYANT Time: 04:35pm \/To: DON BOX (Read 1 times) Subj: STREET PEOPLE -> Please keep in mind I differentiate between common "riff-raff" and -> homelessness... there is a difference. But others, too many of which are in lofty social/job positions, do not. In fact, some of these with authority to make a difference may actually move to CREATE homelessness and economic hopelessness. Drop in at Social Services, not everyone is there looking for a free handout but ALL get the "case number" treatment as if to be in need is to sacrifice your humanity. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Computer One BBS (818) 763-0678 - bbsinfo@comp1.com (1:102/836.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00026 Date: 03/19/98 From: D.E. BRYANT Time: 04:54pm \/To: RICH WILLBANKS (Read 1 times) Subj: STREET PEOPLE -> DB> Why is it Seattle has a large homeless (tramp, bum, hobo, -> DB> etc) population without the massive problems other areas -> DB> seem to have. Yes, there's societal problems but they're -> DB> over on Cathedral Hill, another part of town. You do see -> DB> the indigent walking around, even sitting on public -> DB> benches. You don't see them sleeping under downtown -> DB> underpasses and public parks. -> To me they are no better than the people who live off -> the system by getting welfare, medicare, food stamps, -> et al. Be careful with the aspersions, friend. All of these social services can be a god-send. The news reports in LA continually relate the diminished unemployment. I wonder where these jobs are, if not at McDonalds or Burger King. Employers seem not in a hurry to hire elsewhere, holding onto applications for months before accepting interviews, then deliberating in slow-motion as if applicants have stipends to live on while waiting to get a job. When the money runs out while waiting for one of those employment opportunities to materialize, you must do what is practical to survive. If it is food stamps or welfare--then so be it. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Computer One BBS (818) 763-0678 - bbsinfo@comp1.com (1:102/836.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00027 Date: 03/19/98 From: D.E. BRYANT Time: 09:17pm \/To: DON BOX (Read 1 times) Subj: STREET PEOPLE -> DB> -> Please keep in mind I differentiate between common "riff-raff" -> DB> and -> homelessness... there is a difference. -> -> DB> But others, too many of which are in lofty social/job positions, -> DB> do not. In fact, some of these with authority to make a differenc -> DB> may actually move to CREATE homelessness and economic -> DB> hopelessness. Drop in at Social Services, not everyone is there -> DB> looking for a free handout but ALL get the "case number" treatmen -> DB> as if to be in need is to sacrifice your humanity. -> -> That's the Civil Service unions and the tax bloat... Your reply seems so off-hand, Don, as if we are having a PBS "Life & Times" discussion. This is REAL, Don. Too many people are becoming statistics. Being told that Civil Service unions and tax bloat is the cause won't sweeten the odor in the midden. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Computer One BBS (818) 763-0678 - bbsinfo@comp1.com (1:102/836.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00028 Date: 03/20/98 From: PAUL HARNEY Time: 02:14am \/To: TOM RIGHTMER (Read 1 times) Subj: Thanks Tom Tom, I have been following right along and I don't know how others may feel but I think you are doing a fine job as co-mod. Thank you very much for stepping in and helping out. I am very appreciative. Let me know if you want to keep it going along like this or if you would like me to send in the mod_update and list you as sole moderator. Yours in partnership, Paul H. --- Rise and be counted * Origin: Simplicity @FidoNet "Its Simplicity Itself" (1:2630/321) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00029 Date: 03/20/98 From: KENT ANDERSON Time: 06:00am \/To: RYAN BAGUEROS (Read 1 times) Subj: STREET PEOPLE -=> Quoting Ryan Bagueros to Rich Griebel <=- RB> Quoting Rich Griebel from a message to Don Box RG> Whoa, you've not been watching the news. In the past 6 months RG> Seattle and the surrounding communities have had two widely RG> publicized murders committed by "street people". Over the past 2 RG> years communities have passed a series of laws prohibiting aggressive RG> pan handling after a history of assaults by pan handlers. RB> You know, its odd, there have been at least three widely RB> publicized RB> murders by the police in my town. And not only RB> has there not been any RB> action taken against the police RB> in general, but the specific officers involved were not RB> disciplined. RB> -!- Ryan, Murder? By whose definition? If the officers were not punished/disciplined, then it was not "the unlawful taking of human life." Taking the life of a crook under certain circumstances is "justifiable homicide," not "murder." Since, by your own admission, you stay high most of the time, how in the world could you make ANY believable evaluation of ANYTHING you happen to hear? When you disappeared from here for a couple of months, I thought you had finally gotten high at the wrong time and in the wrong place and were enjoying the classless society in a jail somewhere. Too bad. Society has not improved as much as I thought it had. ... There's no freedom of association without freedom of non-association --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Rendezvous!! 8gigs_20000files_500echoareas 512-303-1324 (1:382/92) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00030 Date: 03/19/98 From: RICH WILLBANKS Time: 10:27am \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 1 times) Subj: Zero Tolerance RW>Now there were probably a couple of dozen of public >drunk (illegal) people disturbing the peace (illegal) >there but no one was arrested, no one was even >questioned. Was this good law enforcement? >Technically it wasn't because a LEO was 'over looking' >a crime, but using common sense it was. Peace was RW>Now if the town had passed a ZT law they would have HAD >to arrest them or face disciplinary action. RT> You are making Tom's and Charles' point Rich. No I'm not. RT> In the situation you were involved, common sense and good RT> law enforcement was working. No requirement for ZT. RT> Now let's think for a moment... what if your situation RT> happened EVERY night. And night after night, the walk RT> through temporarily solved the problem, but then the rowdies RT> went right back to it when the cops left. The -=COPS=- would know that and instead of walking through they would arrest them. No need for another law/regulation/rule just COMMON sense at the STREET level. RT> You can bet that a ZT policy will be adopted and the cops RT> WILL arrest each and every one of the "good guys" that show Ok lets say that this has happened. Now J. Q. Citizen and his wife are sitting in lawnchairs on the sidewalk in their front yard watching their kids play in the wading pool. Mr. C has a beer but Mrs. C doesn't. Now the C's neighbor has it in for them for reasons unknown and knows about the cities new ZT on public drinking and calls the cops to report a man drinking in public. The cops show up and see Mr C on the sidewalk with beer in hand. Now because of the ZT policy and the fact that a sidewalk is considered public (in most cases) Mr C is handcuffed (SOP for everyone arrested) put in the back of the car and taken off. If it wasn't for the ZT policy that FORCES the police to arrest EVERYONE drinking in public the cops could have just talked to Mr C and found out the situation. They would, most likely, have just told him to either move the chairs off the sidewalk or dump his beer. But because of the ZT policy Mr. C is faced with all the crap of being arrested. The questions from the neighbors, the rumors, having to explain it to the kids, etc. All because the politicians didn't trust their police to have enough common sense to do their jobs. RT> up with beer in hand. Once the situation is back under RT> control, ZT will be relaxed. Really? When have you EVER heard of a ZT law/policy/rule being "relaxed"? RT> ZT is usually implemented NOT as a blanket policy, but RT> selectively... either by location or by type of offense. And in either it can get to the point where it is out of control. Examples for you; DUI checkpoints, confiscation of private property THOUGHT to be related to illegal drugs. RT> Most ZT policies that I've seen in action involved drunk RT> driving on special occasions.... say New Year's Eve. That RT> over the limit, open bottle in the car, minor in possession, RT> ect., it was a trip to jail, booked and charged. Then why not do the same for outstanding warrants? After all if a person is wanted by the police doesn't he pose some kind of danger to the public? Wouldn't that be just as easy as the DUI stop. You just stop the cars at random and run their DL. Good idea or does it sort of smell like the papers check done in. . .well let's say less free countries? RT> While I agree 100% with your sentiments on school policies, RT> I think you are taking the ZT policy in law enforcement to Because if you look at laws and law enforcement over the past 5, 10, 15 years you can see that things have a nasty habit of going to extremes. One way or another. With such a past record like this I don't want to take any more common sense out of LE. RT> the extreme. It is intended to be a remedy for a special RT> problem, usually enforced selectively, and it works. No, good law enforcement works. A ZT that is "enforced selectively" is a nasty thing in many ways. Using your NYE DUI example, because you have so many extra officers on the streets then you have fewer on the streets at some other time. You are telling the people that you, the police, have the power to stop and search you at any time so the people should live in fear of breaking the law. If you set these road blocks up in selected areas and these areas just happen to have a large number of minorities you face legal problems. If you don't set these road blocks up in those areas you could reduced the effectiveness because the stats show that these areas have the highest rates of DUI. Add to that the fact that one of the people stopped may take the entire idea to court and find a judge that think he has a case. Then you wind up spending money that could be used to hire more police so you could catch more DUIs through out NYE and the rest of the year. One last thing. I have never seen any stats that show that these road blocks catch more DUIs then just having officers patrolling the streets. Remember: Freedom isn't Free! --- timEd-B11 * Origin: My BBS * Dover, TN * (1:379/301.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3P00031 Date: 03/19/98 From: RICH WILLBANKS Time: 11:09am \/To: TOM RIGHTMER (Read 1 times) Subj: Zero Tolerance CH> But it's not selective for the sake of being selective. Usually CH> in law enforcement zt is invoked for an area that has serious CH> problems and needs cleaning up. RW> Ah, but tell that to the civil rights people who point out that all RW> your ZT areas are minority or low income areas. TR> Our biggest campaigns ever in my city were in minority or TR> low income areas, but your argument wouldn't work here. The TR> citizens of these areas begged, threatened to picket City Really? What if one of the people charged used it as a defence? The only reason he was arrested was because he was a man in a neighborhood. If he had been a man in a neighborhood he would not have been arrested. And his lawyer had numbers to back him up. You use that argument in front of the right judge and every man arrested in your little ZT purge would be back on the streets. They would now feel even safer to do their thing because the judge has told the cops that they can't be arrested. Remember just because members of a group want you to you still can't violate that groups (or a member of that group) civil rights. TR> simple: the rich white neighborhoods don't have these TR> problems because they get all of the police services. The But the stats would not back that up in most areas. The area with the higher crime rate has the higher number of police in it. The difference in the crime rates has very little, if anything, to do with city services. Using the amount of service logic: Very few rich neighborhoods have drug rehab/methadone clinics in them yet they have a low number of junkies on the streets. Therefore the way to get rid of the junkies is to get rid of the rehab clinics. TR> tactics, strategy, progress, complaints, etc. You will find TR> programs of this nature around the country that work when TR> the citizens decide to get involved. Which would work just as well and probably even better if the police just enforced the laws on the books and were allowed to use common sense. IOW, there is NO need to take the enforcement of the law away from the cop and give it to the politicians. How many junkies are let go by a beat cop because the junkie has info that can lead to a bigger fish? If that junkie knew that he was going to get arrested no matter what he'd just keep his mouth shut and the big fish would keep swimming. Remember: Freedom isn't Free! --- timEd-B11 * Origin: My BBS * Dover, TN * (1:379/301.1)