--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00010 Date: 03/11/98 From: RICH WILLBANKS Time: 03:14pm \/To: CHARLES HUNTER (Read 1 times) Subj: Teenage Smoking RW>Now let's say I'm looking for a store in a new part of >town, which just happens to be a ZT area. I'm driving >slow, looking around, just like someone cruising the >area for drugs. I get pulled over and searched "for the >officer's safety" and they find the "drugs". Now I >don't have a script or a bottle showing I have a >script. Guess what? I'm in the back of the car on my >way to be fingerprinted because it is a ZT area and I >am in possession of "drugs". CH> Hate to break this to you, Rich; but if you were in a non-ZT CH> area and they found your unlabeled drugs you would be in the CH> same boat. And, in both cases if you were to tell the CH> officers that you had a bonafide prescription for those CH> meds, I am sure that they would call your doctor before CH> filing a criminal complaint against you. Under a ZT rule system the cop wouldn't have any choice. He would have to arrest me and take me to jail no matter what I told him or what he thought. ZT means that any violation of the law is treated the same as any other and because I was carrying a strange drug I would have to be arrested just the same as someone with 1000 quaaludes. Remember: Freedom isn't Free! --- timEd-B11 * Origin: My BBS * Dover, TN * (1:379/301.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00011 Date: 03/12/98 From: CHARLES HUNTER Time: 05:42am \/To: RICH WILLBANKS (Read 1 times) Subj: Zero Tolerance RW>That's the point I was making. The rule(s) on ZT are >stupid because they don't allow for exceptions. The >straight A, never been in trouble student is treated >just like the kid who is a straight F, just waiting to >get old enough to drop out, six time expelled student. >Also a life saving, medically necessary, doctor >prescribed drug is treated the same as LSD. RW>As I have tried to point out the schools have proven >that ZT is a monster that should be kept caged. Rich, there is no comparison between ZT in a school and ZT in a law enforcement setting. How can you complain about the Straight A kid being treated the same as the kid with a straight "F"? Rather than enforcing rules (only) that deal with controlling these kids, most of the discussion I have seen deals with issues of controlling what substances kids are exposed to. (e.g. kid giving another kid a supposed "glucose tablet"). THESE are children they are dealing with in the schools; and they are acting in "loco parentis" with regard to these kids to protect them. CHARLES HUNTER * 1st 2.00 #9124 * Chernobyl uses OS/2 --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0671 * Origin: AirPower Services www.airpower.com 610-259-2193 (1:273/408) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00012 Date: 03/12/98 From: CHARLES HUNTER Time: 05:43am \/To: MIKE MCCANN (Read 1 times) Subj: zero tolerance MM>Nurse dispensing rules. Tried in Nashville, problem was 2fold, school distri >did not want eithe r the responsibility or the liability, and then some >medicines are needed when they are needed, not when you can get to nurse. Common sense should dictate; and exceptions can be made where warranted, Mike. CHARLES HUNTER * 1st 2.00 #9124 * Daddy, what does "Formatting Drive C" mean? --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0671 * Origin: AirPower Services www.airpower.com 610-259-2193 (1:273/408) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00013 Date: 03/10/98 From: RYAN BAGUEROS Time: 12:18pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Street People ----------------- b e g i n e x t r a c t e d m e s s a g e --------------- * Quoting Tom Rightmer from a message to Ron Taylor * TR> to live and let live whenever possible. I offer information about TR> shelter, food, and other forms of assistance. I might also add that TR> some street people become very good sources of information for TR> the thoughts of others. I might add that I help with food, clothes, TR> and not their booze or dope. I wanted to chime in and say that when Don talks about true freedom - this is what he is talking about, I think. Your quote above is just totally patronizing - _you_ have mixed feelings about "street people," _you_ think that they are okay, as long as you don't see or hear them or have to talk to them, _you_ decide what they should do with their money, the alcoholism rate in the olice profession is widespread, but someone with no home can't get drunk on your fifty cents. The fact is that aside from the hobo lifestylists you are talking about, most of the homeless are transient and temporarily homeless, if they even are homeless. I've held a full-time job, paid my rent and all my bills, and still gone dumpster diving just to eat (you won't believe how many pizza places throw away hot, full pizzas) because my job didn't pay nearly enough. Where I live, panhandling is illegal if it is done near an ATM, near a bus stop, if you ask twice, if you touch the person you are asking, etc etc. Laws like that are classist in nature and are symptomatic of a society that forces people into desperate situations only to stigmatize them as incompetent and unworthy of food and shelter. The fact of the matter is that most squatters, homeless, dumpster diving kids I know are light years more self sufficient than the rich kid who has had the bill paid the whole way by daddy warbucks. --- FMail 1.22 * Origin: #thepublicistoblame#.subversivetelecom.OHiO (1:226/580.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00014 Date: 03/12/98 From: TOM RIGHTMER Time: 11:44am \/To: RICH WILLBANKS (Read 1 times) Subj: zero tolerance TR> Negative, they are not. All of the examples you cited were not the TR> law, they were school policy. Your examples of RW> Yes they are. The school board can, if they choose, have a student RW> arrested for a weapons or drug charge. If the school decides to RW> search a class of students at random and find a student w/ drugs RW> they can have him arrested. This w/o any PC for the search. Slightly RW> off the ZT topic but it shows how schools can use their rules in a LE RW> way. Rich, you change your examples when you see that they don't fit. All of the examples you gave in previous messages were school policy, not public law. I don't know if you see only what you want to see or if you fail to comprehend, but I'm going to quit wasting my time trying to explain it to you. Tom Rightmer - A Victims' Rights Advocate ... Are you a Klingon, or is that a turtle on your head? --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: 357 MAGNUM *Lawton, OK* 405-536-5032 (1:385/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00015 Date: 03/12/98 From: JOHN F DAVIS Time: 11:57am \/To: TOM RIGHTMER (Read 1 times) Subj: zero tolerance TR>John, you can't be charged in court with school policy unless that school TR>policy is public law. There is no jail time, misdemeanor or felony, for TR>chewing gum in class. This is the difference between school policy and publi TR>law. And I never said someone would be charged in court with violating school policy, At least not a court of law. But they are still convicted and sentenced. But it's before a SCHOOL BOARD, not a court. My point is that as an adult who is no longer in school, I have protection from the law, I have the right to a FAIR and SPEEDY trial before an impartial judge and a jury. and I am not guilty, till the judge bangs the gavel. These rights are guarenteed the accused in a Court of Law. I think they should also be guarenteed to a student in school "court" IN school "court" you have basically, no rights at all It's "Bend over and smile" as it were. TR>You are correct. However, most school districts have hearings or appeals TR>which can and are heard by the school board. Most school board meetings re TR>also public meetings with their agenda listed. Many school board meetings ar TR>televised, just like the city council meetings in many places. The biggest TR>difference between school policies and public laws are the tests of time and TR>the courts. Still... In the end..... The school board is not bound by such little bits as the constution... If they decide to expell a student for "pushing drugs" when all he gave away is pure sugar... They can do it. (Of course I've also heard smart mouthed lawyer types (not all lawyers) who could darn near convince you that I killed Kennedy (I was in high school gym calss here in Michigan at the time) TR>Schools are responsible for the welfare of children to and from school in TR>most jurisdictions. As a result, they can extend school rules to the bus TR>stop, the school bus, the walk to and from school, the lunch hour, etc. However to disipline a student for a traffic violation on the public road, when the police have already given him a ticket for said violation, Is to put the student in double jepordy. Another constutional no-no and exactly what happened in the case I was thinking fo TR>Again, applying a school rule is different than applying a public law. his TR>is nothing new at all, rather the norm for most portions of the country. That's the problem... I feel that school rules should be bound by the same constraints that public laws are. If feel the accused should be offered the same rights as a public accused suspect. The idea of a school who makes their own rules, then proceeds to enforce them on innocenet students who have, in fact, not broken any rules.... Well I'd like to say it's unthinkable... But I know better Another case. in the news. The one of the 3rd grader who was suspended for giving a girl a kiss. School rule: NO UNWANTED SEXUAL CONTACT (never mind the question of "is a kiss ALWAYS sexual contact for the moment) The young lady in the story freely admitted that she asked the boy to kiss her. IN SO MANY WORDS Yet he was still suspended for "unwanted sexual contact" This is an example of a rule and a school board, way off the deep end. * SLMR 2.1a * I have a new philosophy. I'm only going to dread one day --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.03H1 * Origin: The Chessplayer's Forum (313)386-7054 (1:2410/278) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00016 Date: 03/12/98 From: JOHN F DAVIS Time: 11:57am \/To: RICH GRIEBEL (Read 1 times) Subj: Police Recruits RG>tank when we heard two ricochets. The first one hit the back of the RG>tank, the second hit a fence post. There may have been more, but we RG>didn't hang around to find out. Humm... Did you break the sound barrier in your haste to get the (deleted) out of there? I used to work in a very nice shooting gallery, We had full length windows for the outside wall... And they were "half silvered" so that we could not see out at all at night.... I'm amazed that some gunman never bothered to look in, realise we could not see him, and plug away. At 6'+ by 300 lbs I make one of a target (how could he miss) I told my bosses that if I heard any bullets zinging off the one thing that was between me and that window........ Look for me about 2 counties NORTH (The window was on my south side) of where I worked. Now we have a mucher office, We have nearly 200 windows with excelent vision, We can look out of a maximum of 32 of them at one time (They are video cameras... The walls to the office are solid block/brick) * SLMR 2.1a * Life's a trip and then you run out of Travelers' Checks. --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.03H1 * Origin: The Chessplayer's Forum (313)386-7054 (1:2410/278) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F3H00017 Date: 03/12/98 From: MIKE MCCANN Time: 08:00am \/To: RICH GRIEBEL (Read 1 times) Subj: Police Recruits --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: UltraTech - Nashville, TN (615)356-0453 {V.34/V.FC} (1:116/30)