--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00009 Date: 02/17/98 From: RON TAYLOR Time: 07:56am \/To: PAUL HARNEY (Read 1 times) Subj: all PH> > Betcha can get his feed pulled . PH> > BTW... welcome back and we all hope you are feeling MUCHHHH > > better. PH>One would hope not Ron... PH>Pulling feeds in this line of work is corparal punishment.. PH>We don't give the "death" penalty around here for one act of >thougtlessness. If that were the case this conference could wind up >without many of its long time users...not limited to, in all likelyhood, >its moderator. :) Yours truly as well . It seems though that sometimes, a post is sufficient on its face to incur the death penalty all by itself. Thoughtlessness is a mild word when describing such a message. Ron --- * QMPro 1.02 42-7029 * This tagline guaranteed against defects in workmanship. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: CrimeBytes:Take A MegaByte Out Of Crime! (305)592-9831 1:135/5.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00010 Date: 02/19/98 From: MIKE MCCANN Time: 06:51am \/To: TOM RIGHTMER (Read 1 times) Subj: zero tolerance No confusion at all here, thanks. Well into basic in 1978 while studying police authority and laws, it was ppointed out by our police lawyer that police authority was on a continum, always swing either more pro police or the other way. This movement is effected by any number of circumstances. The pendulum swings both ways and a look at the albright college debate debacle indicates achange in society.EVERYTHING comes back and there is no original idea. mike --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: UltraTech - Nashville, TN (615)356-0453 {V.34/V.FC} (1:116/30) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00011 Date: 02/19/98 From: JIM WESTBROOK Time: 12:27pm \/To: TOM RIGHTMER (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Just Curious On Wednesday February 18 1998, Tom Rightmer wrote to All: TR> Here's a question for non-LEOs. What are your expectations of the TR> police? Although I've never been a commissioned PO, I worked for a police department for about seven years (told the cops where to go and got paid for it), and another seven years plus in the industrial security field. As a consequence, my perspective and expectations of PO's is undoubtedly different from the "man in the street" whose experiences are not the same. TR> First, I realize this is a difficult question, because TR> expectations are usually based upon problems endured by the TR> individual citizen in his or her neighborhood. Every neighborhood TR> has a different set of problems, so I'm sure that the answers TR> will be varied. I don't know that "endured" is the word I would have chosen. I think I'd have used "tolerated" instead. Without a degree of acceptance, the problem either doesn't take place there, is forced by the citizen(s) to cease, or soon moves elsewhere. TR> I would first make a general observation that the vast majority TR> of citizens are law abiding citizens who care about where and how TR> they live. Income usually dictates the "where", and numerous TR> factors influence the "how". Second, I would comment that nearly TR> everyone commits minor violations of the law from time to time, TR> and that does not make them a bad citizen. Nearly everyone TR> commits a traffic violation from time to time, maybe they get TR> caught and maybe they don't, but this does not make them a bad TR> citizen. It does, however, make them (us) technically criminals. And just like those whose criminal activities are of a more serious nature, they (we) don't want to be caught. TR> Most agencies receive hundreds of calls a week about reckless TR> drivers, speeding in school zones, speeding in residential areas, TR> running stop signs, running red lights, etc. There is irony here TR> in that they want the other guy caught, not themselves. Due to TR> the large numbers of complaints and demands, I would say that TR> reasonable traffic law enforcement would be one of the public's TR> expectations of the police. Catch the other guy, not me! Am I TR> close? Reasonably accurate in my experience. This dialogue may sound familiar: LEO: "May I have your driver's license, insurance and registration papers, Sir? JQP: "Why aren't you out there catching _real_ criminals?" LEO: "I'm too busy dealing with the one I _have_ caught." TR> The highest priority of the public appears to be reasonable TR> safety and security for their homes and their families. Thousands Unfortunately, most of the public has forgotten, or never known, that THEY are the ones with the primary responsibility for the immediate safety of themselves, families, and homes. This is just another example of "it's somebody else's fault." TR> of surveys over many years tends to confirm this. The purchase of TR> a home is a huge investment, and this tends to lock the average TR> family in to a long-term committment to the neighborhood. I am TR> one of those persons and have made a 20 year committment to the TR> same neighborhood. Maybe my expectations of the police TR> are different because I am a police officer, but maybe not. 1) Your expectations ARE different. If someone attempts to "tag" the front door of your home, YOU won't cower in the bedroom while waiting for 911 to send someone. YOU would call, request a backup, and confront the perp(s) urself. There is another difference, too. YOUR call for a backup would be handled as a top priority call because you are known to be a PO, known to be a reliable witness, and known to be willing to prosecute the offenders. YOU have accepted your responsibility for your safety--and that of others in your presence. TR> I've wanted to keep the property that I worked hard for; This is pretty much universal--for those who HAVE worked for what they have. TR> 2) I've wanted my children to be safe and be able to play outside TR> with other neighborhood children; 3) I've wanted drug dealers, TR> drunks, paint sniffers, and other undesirables to stay away from TR> my wife and children and leave them alone; These two items are essentially the same thing, item three just specifies some of the elements necessary for item two to be true. It also indicates that YOU have accepted the responsibility for determining what is required for that degree of safety. TR> 4) I've wanted to lock my TR> doors at night and have a reasonable expectation that my home TR> would not be invaded; Personally, I'd rather that I didn't feel a need to have my doors and windows locked. Or have the burglar alarm, or have trained my wife and daughters to be capable of firing twelve aimed rounds in 25 seconds with any handgun in the house. Or have had to teach them that deadly force may very well not be excessive force and under what circumstances that is true. TR> 5) I could go on, but I've basically wanted TR> a relatively safe place to raise a family. I'm obviously not TR> wealthy with my occupation, so I live in a lower middle-class TR> neighborhood. Are my expectations of the police much different TR> than the average person? I'm sure that your local drug dealers TR> have a different expectation of the police, but that is to be TR> expected. Just thoughts. Yes, your expectations are different because YOU are different from the general public. You have not only accepted your responsibility to yourself and your family, but have accepted similar responsibility as your chosen profession. In many ways, I'm just as "different" from the 'norm' as you are. Viva la difference, Jim --- GoldED 2.40.P0623+ * Origin: JimNet - Austin, TX (512)837-0953 (1:382/29) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00012 Date: 02/19/98 From: TOM RIGHTMER Time: 10:38pm \/To: MIKE MCCANN (Read 1 times) Subj: zero tolerance MM> No confusion at all here, thanks. Your previous message indicated that police routinely make arrests without merit. I read your message again to see if I misunderstood what you said, but this is what you said in the message. There is certainly no shortage of violations, so why would any police officer make an arrest without merit? Your statement was not specific, so I assume that you are talking about the entire profession, all police officers. I do not agree with your accusation, and I doubt that many others do either. MM> Well into basic in 1978 while MM> studying police authority and laws, it was ppointed out by our police MM> lawyer that police authority was on a continum, always swing either MM> more pro police or the other way. This movement is effected by any MM> number of circumstances. I've heard of this analogy before, regarding the pendulum, but it was stated in a more generic manner. The swing is from liberal to conservative or vice versa, and this change involves the entire society, not just thoughts about the police. The change eventually involves the entire criminal justice system. It is my opinion that popularity of the police is decided at the community level, not at a state or national level. The same would be true regarding the popularity of Police Chiefs. This is decided at the community level. This popularity factor is usually influenced greatly by the police department responding to the needs and desires of the people they serve. As a result, the people in one community might love their police department, and a community 50 miles away might hate their police department. It is my opinion that police popularity is either won or lost one contact at a time with the public. MM> The pendulum swings both ways and a look MM> at the albright college debate debacle indicates achange in MM> society.EVERYTHING comes back and there is no original idea. mike I don't think that 10 or 12 people disrupting a meeting indicates a shift of society. Maybe others may place a higher emphasis on this disruption than I do. Regarding the "no original ideas", I would say there would be at least one original idea by the second, somewhere around the world. These original ideas usually lead to progress, innovation, higher technology, and invention. The average person does things today that weren't dreamed of 30 years ago. Tom Rightmer - A Victims' Rights Advocate ... Why did CNN cancel that cool "Desert Storm" show? --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: 357 MAGNUM *Lawton, OK* 405-536-5032 (1:385/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00013 Date: 02/19/98 From: TOM RIGHTMER Time: 10:38pm \/To: JIM WESTBROOK (Read 1 times) Subj: Expectations of the Police JW> Yes, your expectations are different because YOU are different from JW> the general public. You have not only accepted your responsibility to JW> yourself and your family, but have accepted similar responsibility as JW> your chosen profession. In many ways, I'm just as "different" JW> from the 'norm' as you are. JW> Viva la difference, Jim Jim, I enjoyed reading your response. Your points were logical and valid. You have to stand in the other man's shoes to understand his perceptions, and those perceptions are reality and truth to him. My perceptions and thoughts may change as I get older and prepare to retire. I understand from your message that you have been a police dispatcher and also have a large amount of experience in the security field. This would change your perceptions dramatically, and you would be much different than the average person. I owe at least 9 lives to some great dispatchers, so I have a great deal of respect and admiration for good dispatchers. Your perspectives may add to some fairly lively conversations here on a regular basis. Tom Rightmer - A Victims' Rights Advocate ... Time heals all wounds, but the belly button remains. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: 357 MAGNUM *Lawton, OK* 405-536-5032 (1:385/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00014 Date: 02/19/98 From: TOM RIGHTMER Time: 10:38pm \/To: CHARLES HUNTER (Read 1 times) Subj: Questions to LEOs I'm not ignoring your recent questions directed to LEOs. I know there are numerous LEOs in this conference, and I'd like to hear from them. Your questions are interesting and should require some thought. Tom Rightmer - A Victims' Rights Advocate ... Did you hear about the new deli that opened in India?? --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: 357 MAGNUM *Lawton, OK* 405-536-5032 (1:385/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00015 Date: 02/19/98 From: TOM RIGHTMER Time: 10:38pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Use Of This Echo I've received several messages from Paul Harney regarding his thoughts about the use of ASKACOP. Paul wishes to encourage open and frank discussions in the echo without a lot of nit-picking and heavy-handed enforcement of the rules by the moderator. I would simply like to say that I agree 100% with Paul, and I wish to continue with this philosophy. I think that we have all enjoyed some conversations that were slightly off-topic from time to time, and little or nothing was said by Paul. If something was said by Paul, it was said in a very nice manner or handled by netmail. I think that we've all gotten a little bit hot under the collar from time to time, and the problem was handled in a like manner by Paul. I would simply like to say that I have no desire to change anything. My priority, as the new Co-Moderator, is the enjoyment of this echo and a free exchange of information between the participants. This has been and continues to be one of Paul Harney's highest priorities, and I agree with him 100%. Co-Moderator - ASKACOP Tom Rightmer - A Victims' Rights Advocate ... Windows would be better with curtains. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: 357 MAGNUM *Lawton, OK* 405-536-5032 (1:385/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00016 Date: 02/19/98 From: JOHN F DAVIS Time: 12:05pm \/To: RICH GRIEBEL (Read 1 times) Subj: Felony Vehicle Stops RG>Situation happened to me. I was blissfully doing the pre-tests for a DUI tr RG>driver when three Troopers and on County Deputy did a felony stop on a VW Va RG>behind my patrol vehicle. Well I guess that is better than the officer who was out on a DUI stop, A sheriff's dept pulled up behind him for moral support. And a second DUI slammed into the sheriff's car with considerable force (Debris from the crash hit the original suspect's car) Amazingly only the DUI #2 was injured. We had one the other (yester as I type day before as I upload) where we took an accident report. Wrecker arrived, Loaded the car and the troopers blocked the lane while the driver swept the debris out of the road. Car comes flying past the troopers, over the driver (He may die, don't know as of end of last shift) and ..... Driver refers to the Tow Truck Operator in this case. It's been a couple of fun days at work. * SLMR 2.1a * Oxymoron: HONEST POLITICIAN! --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.03H1 * Origin: The Chessplayer's Forum (313)386-7054 (1:2410/278) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00017 Date: 02/19/98 From: KENT ANDERSON Time: 03:26pm \/To: TOM RIGHTMER (Read 1 times) Subj: Just Curious -=> Quoting Tom Rightmer to All <=- TR> .......................................... Are my expectations of the TR> police much different than the average person? I'm sure that your local TR> drug dealers have a different expectation of the police, but that is to TR> be expected. Just thoughts. TR> Tom, I can't think of a thing I would add to what you expect from the Police, and I am not a LEO. Overall, our locals seem to do a good job, and they are quite shorthanded due to low salaries, and the difficulty of attracting young people into the career. Take care, and get yourself well. Kent, ... POGVLAC - Plain old garden variety law abiding citizen. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Rendezvous!! 8gigs_20000files_500echoareas 512-303-1324 (1:382/92) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 198 ASK A COP Ref: F2P00018 Date: 02/20/98 From: CHARLES HUNTER Time: 06:59am \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 1 times) Subj: felony vs routine stop RT>If it is John Q. Citizen involved, what would prompt the LEO to make >it a felony stop instead of otherwise? I think Tom's detailed explanation explains it nicely. As for John Q. Citizen, the officer acts on circumstances as he doesn't yet know if it it John Q. Citizen until after he has taken control of the situation,. CHARLES HUNTER * 1st 2.00 #9124 * Better is the death knell for Good Enough --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0671 * Origin: AirPower Information Services 610-259-2193 (1:273/408)