--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F4200017 Date: 04/01/98 From: ELVIS HARGROVE Time: 12:06pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Ye Olde Rulez RULES OF THE INTERNATIONAL AVIATION ECHO This echo is for the discussion of flying full-size, real aircraft of all types within the earth's immediate influence. 1. Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Personal attacks, flames, and abusive language will not be tolerated. The basic rules of FidoNet are: don't be excessively annoying, and don't be too easily annoyed. The rest of the rules here are extensions of these. 2. Stay on-topic. Acceptable topics include, but aren't limited to: general, commercial, and military aviation, and products and services relating to aviation. It includes flying of fixed-wing, rotary-wing, ultralight, soaring, and experimental aircraft. The moderators reserve the right to declare a topic or thread off-topic if it threatens to disrupt the echo. A response to an off-topic message is also off-topic. Just ignore it. Discussion of PC or arcade-based aviation simulators and games are on- topic only as they relate to the flying of real aircraft. The FidoNet FS (Flight Simulator) echo would be more appropriate for any other discussion of these simulators and games. Likewise, the discussion of radio-controlled models is on-topic only if it relates to the operation of full-sized aircraft. Other discussion of these models is off-topic for the AVIATION echo and should be taken to the FidoNet RCM or RC_MODEL echoes. 3. All messages posted to the echo should be in English. Since this conference is read by some whose primary language is not English, please do your best to use proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation, so that others can clearly understand your meaning. 4. Don't post two or more identical messages (i.e. to two or more different people). Instead, write a blanket message that conveys the information you want to relay, and then address your message to ALL. One message (instead of a dozen) saves echo bandwith, sysop phone bills, and moderator wrath. SPAMMING of any type is EXCESSIVELY annoying, and will get your local SysOp in a bundle of trouble! 5. Do not post commercial for-sale messages. If you have an aviation-related item for *one-time* sale, you may post a short notice about the item in the echo. 6. Test messages are not appropriate. If you're not sure your messages are getting out, check with your sysop (if you're a user) in a *local* message area (such as "Comments to Sysop") or your NC/NEC (if you're a sysop), or post your test message in a local-area or regional echo. NOTE! ***** 7. Don't quote more than is necessary to remind other users of the conversation in progress. Above all, DO NOT quote taglines, ***** tearlines, origin lines, and other such "control" lines, as these can cause severe problems for some systems. Don't post in ALL-CAPS. Not only is it difficult to read, but it's the BBS equivalent of SHOUTING. Don't use high-bit ASCII (fancy graphics characters). These, too, can cause some systems to choke. Signatures must be limited to three lines or less. Preferrably LESS! 8. You must use your real name in the message headers (the "FROM" line). Handles may be used *only* in the message body. Aliases, used to disguise your true identity are strictly forbidden, and will get you an inforced vacation from AVIATION for sure. If complying with this involves changing your log-on name. Ask your sysop for help. 9. Messages suggesting or encouraging illegal activity will NOT be tolerated! Period. 10. No profane or vulgar language is permitted. As pilots we've all heard enough. The Mile High discussion is perpetually OFF topic. 11. The SysOp of each system carrying AVIATION is responsible for all messages that enter the conference from his/her system. Since this is a FidoNet conference, all messages must include a FidoNet address in the origin line. Sysops are STRONGLY encouraged to make inbound and routed netmail available to their users. 12. Do not gate AVIATION to or from another network without prior moderator approval. Messages originating from other networks must be routed through approved gateways. Only full FidoNet nodes will be considered as possible gateways. 13. If you choose to reply to a moderator message, do so ONLY via NETMAIL, NOT in the echo. Not having access to netmail and not knowing how to use it are not acceptable excuses for replying in the echo. Most sysops will allow at least one-time access to netmail as long as you pay any long-distance charges involved, especially if their feed to the echo is in jeopardy. If you have comments or questions regarding these rules or the conference in general, you may reach me via direct or routed netmail to the address below. My system is CM and will accept your netmail at any time. Elvis Hargrove, Moderator 1:397/6 Now, let's get on with discussing the joys of flying. ^..^ --- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j' * Origin: BOO! Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas (1:397/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F4200018 Date: 03/26/98 From: BILL WUNSCH Time: 12:29pm \/To: JIM SANDERS (Read 0 times) Subj: news-896 Greetings, Jim! On 31 Dec 97, Jim Sanders entered the following ASCII codes for the express viewing pleasure of Tony Paton: >> May I ask if it was during the war? JS> JS> 30 1/2 missions with 15th AF.. Shot down on 31st... Saw a program last night on WINGS about the B-17 in WWII. Most crew members were happy to go home when they made Lucky B*****d list after surving 25 missions. How come you stayed on? -==- --- GoldED/386 2.42.G0615+ * Origin: Bill's Point -=- Regina, Sask, Canada (1:140/118.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F4200019 Date: 03/26/98 From: CHRISTOPHER TARANA Time: 11:04pm \/To: JACK KINNEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: F-7 TIGERCAT -=> Quoting Jack Kinney to Christopher Tarana <=- JK> your message should get me in really good shape for this JK> weeks statistics. Last week I quoted a whole 4 line message JK> and got on the "bad guys overquote list". This one outta JK> put me on the "good dude" list... There's nothing wrong with quoting, especially with longer messages that might have several subjects. You'll frequently see a larger message broken down with several quotes inside it. On the other hand, if you reduce the quotes to the essentials needed to allow the person you are talking with to remember the topic, you usually can't go wrong. Check your off-line mail reader to see if it has a "quote-meter" function. Such mail readers check to make sure the message doesn't exceed a pre-configured "Quoted Text percentage and warns you before you save it if the quoting might be excessive. enerally a figure between 70% and 80% works well. I'm glad you liked the material on the Tigercat, and if you need anything else don't be afraid to ask. Christopher ... SYSTEM ERROR: press F13 to continue... ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0 * Origin: Computer Vision BBS! (compvision.dyn.ml.org) 1:3603 (1:3603/20010) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F4200020 Date: 03/26/98 From: JIM SANDERS Time: 12:19pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Aviation history 27 November 9, 1967. While attempting to rescue an Army Reconnais- sance team, Capt. Gerald O. Young's Sikorsky HH-3E is shot down in Laos. Badly burned, he gives aid to a crew member who also escaped from the wreckage. After seventeen hours of leading enemy forces away from his injured crewman and himself, the two are rescued. Captain Young is later awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions. November 17, 1967. Operation Eagle Thrust, the largest and long- est airlift of troops and cargo from the US to Southeast Asia, be- gins by C-141 and C-133 aircraft. During the operation, 10,356 paratroopers and 5,118 tons of equipment are airlifted to the com- bat zone in record time. November 9, 1967. While on a flight over Laos, Capt. Lance P. Sijan ejects from his disabled McDonnell Douglas F-4C and success- fully evades capture for more than six weeks. He is caught but man- ages to escape. Recaptured and tortured, he later contracts pneu- monia and dies. For his conspicuous gallantry as a POW, Captain Sijan is posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. December 11, 1967. The Aerospatiale-built Concorde supersonic jetliner prototype rolls out at the company's plant in Toulouse, France. January 12, 1968. The Air Force announces a system for tactical units to carry with them everything they need to operate at "bare" bases equipped only with runways, taxiways, parking areas, and a water supply. February 29, 1968. Jeanne M. Holm, WAF director, and Helen O'Day, assigned to Office of the Air Force Chief of Staff, become the first women promoted to colonel. March 2, 1968. The first of eighty C-5A Galaxy transports rolls out at Lockheed's Marietta, Ga., facility. March 25, 1968. F-111s fly their first combat mission against military targets in North Vietnam. March 31, 1968. President Lyndon Johnson announces a partial halt of bombing missions over North Vietnam and proposes peace talks. May 12, 1968. Lt. Col. Joe M. Jackson, flying an unarmed Fair- child C-123 transport, lands at a forward outpost at Kham Duc, South Vietnam, in a rescue attempt of a Combat Control Team. After a rocket-propelled grenade fired directly at his aircraft proves to be a dud, Colonel Jackson takes off with the CCT on board and lands at Da Nang. He is later awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions. May 18, 1968. In response to a massive flood, the Air Force air- lifts 88.5 tons of food and other supplies to Ethiopia. June 30, 1968. The world's largest aircraft, the Lockheed C-5A Galaxy makes its first flight, as company pilots Leo Sullivan and Walt Hensleigh use only 4,500 feet of Dobbins AFB's 10,000-foot runway to get airborne. July 1, 1968. The first WAF in the Air National Guard is sworn in as a result of passage of Public Law 90-130, which allows ANG to enlist women. August 13, 1968. The National Guard Tecnician Act of 1968 becomes a public law, placing full-time Air and Army Guard technicians under Federal Civil Service Retirement. August 16, 1968. The first test launch of a Boeing LGM-30G Minuteman III ICBM is carried out from Cape Kennedy AFS, Fla. August 21, 1968. NASA pilot William H. Dana becomes the last pilot to fly into space in the North American X-15 research aircraft. One of seven pilots to earn their astronaut wings in the X-15, Mr. Dana atttains an altitude of 264,000 feet and a speed of Mach 4.71 in the flight over Edwards AFB, Calif. September 1, 1968. Lt. Col. William A. Jones III leads a rescue mission near Dong Hoi, North Vietnam. Finding the downed pilot, Colonel Jones attacks a nearby gun emplacement. On his second pass, Colonel Jones's aircraft is hit, and the cockpit of his Douglas A-1H is set ablaze. He tries to eject, but the extraction system fails. He then returns to base and reports the exact position of the downed pilot (who is rescued the next day) before receiving medical treat- ment for his burns. Colonel Jones dies in an aircraft accident in the US before he can be presented the Medal of Honor for his actions the day of the rescue. October 11-22, 1968. Apollo 7, the first test mission following the disastrous Apollo 1 fire, is successfully carried out. Navy Capt. Walter M. Schirra, Jr., USAF Maj. Donn F. Eisele, and R. Walter Cunningham stay in Earth orbit for ten days, twenty hours, nine minutes. October 24, 1968. With NASA test pilot William H. Dana at the controls, the North American X-15 makes the type's 199th and final flight, completing ten years of flight testing. The plane reaches a speed of Mach 5.04 and an altitude of 250,000 feet. November 1, 1968. President Johnson halts all bombing of North Vietnam. November 26, 1968. While returing to base, lst. Lt. James P. Fleming and four other Bell UH-1F helicopter pilots get an urgent message from an Army Special Forces team pinned down near a river- bank. One helicopter is downed and two others leave the area because of low fuel, but Lieutenant Fleming and another pilot flying in an armed Huey press on with the rescue effort. The first try fails, but not willing to give up, Lieutenant Fleming lands again and is suc- cessful in picking up the team. He then lands at his base near Duc Co, South Vietnam, nearly out of fuel. Lieutenant Fleming is later awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions. November 30, 1968. The Air Force's aerial demonstration squadron, the Thunderbirds, fly their 471st and last show in the North American F-100D Super Sabre. Except for six shows in 1964 when they flew F-105s, the team had been performing in "Huns" for thirteen years. December 21-27, 1968. Apollo 8 becomes the first manned mission to use the Saturn V booster. Astronauts USAF Col. Frank Borman, Navy Cmdr. James A. Lovell, and USAF Maj. William Anders become the first humans to orbit the moon. End of Part-27 === --- DB 1.39/004487 * Origin: Volunteer BBS (423) 694-0791 V34+/VFC (1:218/1001.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F4200021 Date: 03/26/98 From: JIM SANDERS Time: 07:30pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: News-109 Pilot of U.S. F-16 missing after crash in Yellow Sea WASHINGTON -- March 25, 1998 11:34 p.m. EST -- The U.S. Air Force said the pilot of an F-16 fighter was missing after his jet crashed into the Yellow Sea west of South Korea Wednesday night. The single-seat jet crashed during a night training flight about 60 miles west of Osan Air Base where it was based. The Air Force said in a statement released at the Pentagon that the fighter was attached to the U.S. 51st Fighter Wing. The pilot's name was not immediately released. A search by U.S. and South Korean air force units and naval ships was continuing, the statement said. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Korean Air official says crash is changing management style HONOLULU (AP) - March 26, 1998 11:30 a.m. EST - A senior Korean Air official bowed his head and offered condolences for the 228 pas- sengers and crew who died when Flight 801 crashed in Guam last sum- mer, acknowledging improvements were needed in airline flight safety. Capt. Park Pyong-woo, the airline's deputy director of flight operations, told federal investigators Wednesday that the August 6 crash prompted a complete revision of the carrier's management policies. "Looking back on this accident, we feel most of our management up to now has been too short-term, shortsighted and superficial," Park said. "We plan to make long-term plans and spare no resources to ascertain this final objective of flight safety." Park's comments came during the second day of National Transpor- tation Safety Board hearings into what caused the third-worst air crash ever on U.S. soil. The jet slammed into a mountain while try- ing to land during a nighttime thunderstorm. Only 26 people on board the plane survived. Korean Air will spend more money on training its personnel and has hired a consultant to help make the changes, Park said. Park also expressed sympathy to the relatives of those killed aboard the Boeing 747. "To the family members of the deceased, we'd like to pass on ... our words of condolence," he said. Earlier Wednesday, a Korean Air pilot instructor admitted that the flight crew did not follow airline procedures regarding communi- cation with air traffic controllers in the moments before the crash. Capt. Lee Jung-taek told the NTSB that crew members did not follow the airline's policy of "calling out" to confirm messages from air traffic controllers or when executing other in-flight actions as the jet approached the airport. "What I felt overall was that the accident crew's standard call- out compliance was less than what we are taught," Lee said through an interpreter. Family members of those killed in the crash, upset over being denied a chance to speak at the hearing, berated a Korean Air official during a break and had to be pulled away by police. ------------------------------------------------------------------- FAA drops evacuation test policy for three new jets WASHINGTON - March 25, 1998 3:01 p.m. EST - Passenger advocates say airline safety may be jeopardized if the Federal Aviation Admin- istration carries through with a plan to certify three new jets for service without the traditional test of a passenger escape. The policy change would eliminate the usual practice of sending mock passengers out emergency exits and down evacuation slides. "Certifying new jumbo airliners without emergency evacuation testing is like launching hundreds of potential Titanics," Paul Hudson, executive director of the Aviation Consumer Action Project, said Tuesday. Chris Witkowski, safety director for the 42,000-member Associ- ation of Flight Attendants, added: "If you don't do the drill when you have a new aircraft, you don't really know how the passenger flow and passenger management will work until you do have a real accident or the need for a real evacuation. At that time, it's too late." The policy change applies to the Boeing 777-300 series, an elon- gated version of the company's newest jumbo jet, and stretch ver- sions of the Airbus A330/340. The A330 has two engines; the A340, four. FAA: Not new jet types The 777 fuselage will be stretched to increase the passenger capacity from 440 people to 550. Another pair of emergency exits will also be added. The European maker of the Airbus is going to lengthen its A330/340 aircraft to increase their capacity from 361 passengers to 440. Airbus, however, will not add any new emergency exits to either plane but will increase the size of an existing pair of exits, the policy change said. The FAA insists that these are not new aircraft types. "In both these cases, a wealth of full-scale evacuation data are available to support analysis and the FAA is confident that the use of analysis is well within the intent of the (old) regulation," Ronald T. Wojnar, the FAA's air certification manager, said in a notice issued March 6. The previous regulation stated that an aircraft manufacturer could not receive certification for a new aircraft or one with a "major change" without showing that passengers and the flight crew could exit the plane within 90 seconds using only half the available exits. "As you know, demonstration evacuations can result in injuries, and for these particular aircraft, the manufacturers have already conducted demonstrations," said FAA spokeswoman Alison Duquette. Kirsti Dunn, a spokeswoman for Boeing, said: "Our objective in any testing program is to comply with FAA requirements." She could not say if Boeing requested the policy change or whether it was timed to allow the partial test a day later. --- DB 1.39/004487 * Origin: Volunteer BBS (423) 694-0791 V34+/VFC (1:218/1001.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F4200022 Date: 03/27/98 From: JIM SANDERS Time: 12:54am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: News-110 Air Force pilot's body found, identified after crash WASHINGTON - March 26, 1998 4:49 p.m. EST -- The body of a miss- ing Air Force pilot was recovered in South Korea Thursday and iden- tified as that of Capt. Keith Sands of Tulsa, Okla., the Air Force said. Sands was found by search and rescue personnel in the Yellow Sea after his F-16 jet crashed Wednesday night off South Korea's west coast. The aircraft was part of a four-plane formation conducting a routine combat training mission, according to a statement issued at Osan Air Base in Korea by the Air Force. The plane went down about 60 miles from the base at Osan, south of Seoul. "It is with deep sorrow to report the loss of Capt. Sands. He was part of our Osan family," said a statement issued by Brig. Gen. Paul Dordal, the commander of the base's 51st Fighter Wing. "Our hearts and prayers go out to his family, friends and loved ones for their loss." The cause of the accident is unknown. A board of officers is investigating the cause of the accident. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sandstorm forces planes to divert away from Cairo (Again. Jim) CAIRO, Egypt - March 26, 1998 5:19 p.m. EST -- A sandstorm en- gulfed most of Egypt on Thursday, reducing visibility to less than 500 yards and forcing some flights heading to Cairo to land elsewhere. Two flights from Tunis and one from the Ivory Coast were diverted to Luxor, 300 miles south of Cairo, and to the southern Red Sea resort of Hurghada. Weather forecasters expected the sandstorm, which was centered in the Western Desert, to last two days. No wind speed was given. Egypt was hit with another fierce sandstorm 10 days ago. That resulted in 50 storm-related fires in Cairo and 25 traffic accidents. ------------------------------------------------------------------- UPDATE Four Marines face charges in deaths of 20 in Italy WASHINGTON -- March 26, 1998 9:14 p.m. EST -- Four U.S. Marines will be charged with negligent homicide, involuntary manslaughter, dereliction of duty, destruction of government property and possibly other charges in the deaths of 20 people in Italy, Marine Corps sources told CNN Thursday. An official announcement of the charges is expected Friday. The four were crew members aboard a Marine Corps EA-6B "Prowler" when the pilot tried to fly under a cable car in a valley, but sev- ered the cable sending the large gondola plummeting to the ground, killing everyone aboard. U.S. military officials say the crew was flying too fast and too low when its jet clipped the cable of a ski gondola in northern Italy on February 3, sending those on board plunging to their deaths. The Marines were flying out of an air base at Aviano, Italy on the day of the tragedy. The jet was piloted by Capt. Richard Ashby, 30, of Mission Viejo, California. The three other members of the crew were Capt. William Raney, 26, of Englewood, Colorado; Capt. Joseph Schweitzer, 30, of Westbury, New York; and Capt. Chandler Seagraves, 28, of Nineveh, Indiana. All four Marines were returned to the United States recently. They will face court martial at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, sources said. American military officials had informed the Italian government it would not turn over the crew members for possible criminal pro- secution in Italy. Italian Foreign Minister Lamberto Dini said Italy would not press for a reversal of the decision. Under a 1951 NATO agreement, the United States has jurisdiction over criminal charges stemming from the actions of its troops while on active duty. === --- DB 1.39/004487 * Origin: Volunteer BBS (423) 694-0791 V34+/VFC (1:218/1001.1)