--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00002 Date: 02/08/98 From: CHRISTOPHER TARANA Time: 12:16pm \/To: JIM SANDERS (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: news-005 -=> Quoting Jim Sanders to Christopher Tarana <=- JS> Thanks for all the information > No problem, I figured the new lurkers on the echo could use a peek inside a directory, and it might fuel further discussion. > Which taxiway did they clip? JS> The papers did not say. It just said he taxied of the "tarmac" JS> and got stuck in the mud. :) "Tarmac"? Isn't it politically incorrect to tar and feather a person of Scottish decent? What kind of people are those media clowns? Christopher BTW, anyone know what happened to Andy Millon? I need a E-2 Hawkeye expert for a project I'm working on. ... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it! ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 2 * Origin: Ed's BBS * Holiday,Florida * 1:3619/45 (1:3619/45) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00003 Date: 02/08/98 From: NAT POTTER Time: 04:46pm \/To: ROBERT LINENWEBER (Read 0 times) Subj: Pc RL>In a message to Robert Linenweber <02-06-98 10:09> Nat Potter wrote: RL> NP> Yes sir, I believe those were the low level routes used by the RL>B-52's RL>Which then became "Olive Branch" routes when the gas crisis RL>hit and have since become MTRs. RL>We had one PC change started with a crash in our neighborhood. Two RL>airplanes collided in Quincy Illinois. When it was reported they RL>were at an "uncontrolled airport" the public wanted to RL>know why we didn't have control over such things. Now the RL>PC word is "non-towered airports." RL>Best regards, .. Bob Linenweber Yes sir, and I think there was a B-1 that went down on a low level run out in west Texas and I think the aircraft was from Dyas AFB, in Abilene, TX? *:-<) I used to see them practicing approaches (landings) at CAFB in Fort Worth, TX., while attending my son's soccer games at a park just south of CAFB and across the interstate!!!! Very impressive aircraft on take off??? *:-<) and.... 4:46PM 02/08/98 =*= KASIYH & HAGDW!!!! Bro Nap *:-<) X CMPQwk 1.42 1395 XWhen clinton's done with it, even the MEEK won't want it! --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: The Politically Incorrect! (1:106/1010) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00004 Date: 02/06/98 From: JIM DAWSON Time: 04:08pm \/To: JIM SANDERS (Read 0 times) Subj: RE: NEWS-007 Managed information, maybe? The helo crew & 4 Spec forces pax owuld have proably died without help from 2 snowmobilers who witnessed collision with powerlines. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00005 Date: 02/06/98 From: RICHARD BRICE Time: 08:34pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: NTSB PART XI 1/2 NTSB PART XI < This will be the authors ideas except where I enter my "NOTES"> Should You Conduct Your Own Accident Investigation? Based on 20 years experience with such matters,(Note: I have had over 40 years experience with both the CAB and NTSB Investigations) I recommend that any party implicated in a major air crash, retain an experienair crash, retain an experienced aviation accident attorney and conduct its own investigation within budgetary limitations. (NOTE: He said a mouth full in the above statement. The NTSB ACT by Congress was created so other Government Agencies could not intimidate the NTSB and the NTSB was made an Independenant Investigative Group within the Government. Congress did not word the NTSB ACT so as to make the NTSB an exclusive Investigative body, but it seems the NTSB has taken it upon them selves to act as exclusive. At this time, it would be prudent to go before a Federal Judge and get an order to protect the evidence, meaning to document all pieces of the wreckage by photos taken by a court appointed photographer. In the past I have seen photos of the wreckage immediatly after the accident which showed certain components not damaged but after the NTSB did their investigation and came up with a probable cause of a certain thing causing the accident, then when we asked for the component, knowing it was not damaged during the accident, the NTSB sent us the component and it was smashed and broken into many pieces. They use the authority which was given them, to test to destruction. This component I refer to did not need any testing to see if it was in working order. The truth of the facts were, if the component was broken so badly as to be PROBABLE CAUSE, then that would defeat their finding, it's HARD BALL they play> * An experienced lawyer should meet with a witnesses or party representatives before the NTSB "interrogation" to insure that the witnesses understand the manner in which the investigation will proceed and be advised of their rights. * It is important to have a previously uninvolved aviation lawyer review the facts, procedures and known evidence with the party and involved employees, so that objective facts can be provided in the the interview, rather than emontionally clouded statements which are common after accidents. Survivors of an accident should not give statements to anyone when on medication or in shock. People who've never been "interrogated" benefit from a briefing that explains the difference between fact, analysis, opinions and conclusions. It is important to distinguish between what you really know, or what you're inclined to comment on with confidence, but you really don't "know". Do you remember a fact or do you have a fuzzy memory? Are you willing to say you "remember" because putting 2 and 2 together, "that's probably what happened". * Any person who will give a sworn statement or testify under oath should understand that the oath simply requires that the witness tell the truth. The oath does not require that you speculate, volunteer opinions, recall hearsay, or incriminate yourself. * Care must be taken to properly preserve evidence, safeguard records, avoid the spoilation of evidence and protect trade secrets or other propeietary financial information. * If an FAA employee wants to ask questions as part of an NTSB investigation, get a commitment in writing that nothing divulged will be used in and Enforcement Action. * A Lawyer can confidnentially interview a client-party's employees under the attorney-client privilege. * Eye and ear witnesses intervied by the NTSB can also be interviewed by private party investigators or consultandts while the recollections are fresh. * Just as the NTSB will investigate the maintenance and operational history of an airplane, so can the private consultants and investigators working under the Attorney's Work Product protection conduct a confidential investigation of these issues for a concerned party. * Your attorney shouldl make every effort to locate governmnental data relevant to the crash and preserve it. One cannot assume that the government will save every relevant tape recording or all critical radar raw data. In one case, the author demanded in writing that radar raw data showing a mid-air collision be preserved after the NTSB was done studying it. The data was destroyed the day after the NTSB left the facility. A Federal Judge approved the author's motion on befalf of the client, to amend the lawsuit to include a spoliation of evidnece claim against the offending agency, which was very helpful in subsequent settlement negotiations. End of PART XI. (this may be to long for the system without calling it an attachment. We'll see) >>> Continued to next message --- OLX 2.1 TD If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00006 Date: 02/06/98 From: RICHARD BRICE Time: 08:34pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: NTSB PART XI 2/2 >>> Continued from previous message --- OLX 2.1 TD If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00007 Date: 02/07/98 From: RICHARD BRICE Time: 09:41pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: NTSB PART XII -(last) NTSB PART XII (should be the last one) What Information Should An Investigation Consider? The following is an abbreviated list of information and information sources which experienced aviation accidnet lawyers should know how to obtain quickly after a major accidnet, in order to assist a client with and independent investigation: (NOTE: What he says is true but the biggest obstacle is the NTSB trying to be the EXCLUSIVE one) Airworthiness Directives Files Service Bulletins and Letters and Instructions TSOs Advisory Circulars and Other FAA Orders General Aviation Inspection Aids Patent Applications Hazard Reports Service Difficulty Reports Malfunction Defect Reports Overhaul and Maintenance Records Annual or Periodic Inspection Records Pilot, Airplane, Engine and Propeller Logbooks Certified NWS Weather Data FAA Facility Logs FAA Aircraft Certification Files FAA Airman Certificate and Medical Files FAA Airman Training Records FAA Aircraft Title and Registration Records TRACON Radar Raw Data generated by ARTS NTAP Radar Raw Data generated by ARTS Flight Plans and ship Logs Investigative Reports of Federal, State, County and Municipal Law Enforcement, Emergency, Fire and Rescue Agencies Medical Reports (its amazing what is quoted in medical history taken by doctors) Autopsy Reports (if allowed to be taken) CAMI Toxicology Reports Wreckage Scene Photos Wreckage Pattern Videotapes Airport Data Navigational Charts Instrument Approach Plates Reports of similar accidents involving similar aircraft or components NTSB and ICAO Safety Summaries and Recommendations Tape Recordings of "all" communications relevant ot the accident flight, (not just the usual 5 minutes before and 5 minutes asfter contact with the accident aircraft) (My Note: Be very alert for BEST EVIDENCE. Never take an edited version of any tape recording, always get all verbatim transmissions on the transcript. Be alert for any abnormalities.) NOTE BY AUTHOR: The issues and recommendations discussed in this article are based on hypothetical situations and do not constitude legal advice. My objective is to alert you to some common issues so that you can avoid or minimize legal trouble. Anyone with an aviation law problem should be guided by the advice of his or her lawyer, under applicable federal and state laws, after a full and confidential disclosure of all relevant facts. The End of all PARTS, I thru XII. --- OLX 2.1 TD Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00008 Date: 02/07/98 From: ROBERT LINENWEBER Time: 11:36pm \/To: NAT POTTER (Read 0 times) Subj: PC In a message to Robert Linenweber <02-06-98 10:09> Nat Potter wrote: NP> Yes sir, I believe those were the low level routes used by the B-52's Which then became "Olive Branch" routes when the gas crisis hit and have since become MTRs. We had one PC change started with a crash in our neighborhood. Two airplanes collided in Quincy Illinois. When it was reported they were at an "uncontrolled airport" the public wanted to know why we didn't have control over such things. Now the PC word is "non-towered airports." Best regards, .. Bob Linenweber ... There is safety in numbers - Participate in the "Wings" Program! --- QuickBBS 2.81 Ovr * Origin: FAA ASO-FSDO-15 BBS / Orlando, Florida (1:363/275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00009 Date: 02/07/98 From: ROBERT LINENWEBER Time: 11:44pm \/To: JIM SANDERS (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: news-000 In a message to Raymond Yates <02-02-98 20:40> Jim Sanders wrote: JS> Probably both have enough time to hang it up.. They can go at 20 JS> years with 50 % Jim, they cheapened the retirement since you've left. I don't recall the formula for active duty folks, but I think it is something like 40% for 20 and 75% for 30 and they use some sort of "last year salary average" instead of salary at discharge. Best regards, ... Bob Linenweber ... There is safety in numbers - Participate in the "Wings" Program! --- QuickBBS 2.81 Ovr * Origin: FAA ASO-FSDO-15 BBS / Orlando, Florida (1:363/275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00010 Date: 02/07/98 From: ROBERT LINENWEBER Time: 11:55pm \/To: RAYMOND YATES (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: News-000 In a message to Christopher Tarana <02-05-98 11:12> Raymond Yates wrote: RY> Additionaly, the designate does not include family, just the RY> office-holder. The call sign for an A/C with Hillary only on board RY> would be different, on the order of " {tail number} Special" I wonder what Monica's Tail Number would be. . ... There is safety in numbers - Participate in the "Wings" Program! --- QuickBBS 2.81 Ovr * Origin: FAA ASO-FSDO-15 BBS / Orlando, Florida (1:363/275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 196 AVIATION Ref: F2D00011 Date: 02/03/98 From: ERIC DE WACHTER Time: 12:52pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: *** Virgin Express pilots on strike *** Hi everybody, What is related in the other countries about the strike at Virgin Express. (Belgium-Brussels National Airport) Eric ;-> --- Terminate 4.00/Pro * Origin: * EBBR 1015 230/15 9999 FEW/025 1024 NOSIG * (2:291/766.168)