--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00006 Date: 06/30/97 From: BONNIE GOODWIN Time: 10:39am \/To: GREG MACLELLAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Website for AUDIO Hi Greg! What you say is true, tubes are still prefered by many, but most often solid state devices can do the same job much more efficienctly, and without requiring adjacent rooms for your "electronics", like the computer on your desk. Made out of tubes, you'd need to at least double the size of your house. The origin of this discussion was around making analog to digital conversion using tubes...While someone has already done it, does it necessarily give digital recordings that warmth that people attribute to tubes. BTW, a guitar amplifier is not strictly an audio type of device, it is a musical instrument and the choice of components and the way they are used are strictly to make the guitar sound good. While both guitar amps and audio systems use many of the same components, the end goal is radically different. Audio systems are supposed to be transparent to the signal source, guitar amps intentionally distort and have other than a flat frequency response intentionally, to make the guitar sound right. Bonnie *:> --- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0249 * Origin: The Capitol City Gateway, Since Dec 1979, 916-381-8788 (1:203/909) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00007 Date: 07/01/97 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 02:38am \/To: THOM KOUWENHOVEN (Read 0 times) Subj: system balancing TS> I'd like to be able to generate 10+ KW of acoustic TS> energy (NOT amp power TS> ) from 8 Hz through 5 KHz, tapering down to 1 TS> KW of acoustic energy at TS> 25 KHz, within an area the size of a 500 person hall. TK> Are you into audio or into assassination ? ;) Generally I'd just bet cocky people pretending to understand human perception of audio better than they do that I could drive them out of the room with less than 1/20th of a watt of sound. <<>> Then there was this article in NASA Tech Briefs a few years ago about using ultrasonics to create a vibratory crack in the end of a pipe bomb to allow cap removal without serious risk of detonation.... I just thought the above system would offer some interesting design challenges, and could trigger an interesting adjunct discussion about little discussed transfer efficiency of drivers and coupling systems. Of course, I was thinking about bone conduction of sound to influence brain waves, and impose pleasure patterns in such intensity as to be disorienting, or pain for more reasons than the listener would understand. I really wasn't planning to raise the issues of living animal tissue damage by sound a couple of serious sadists have tried over the years. If the above spec's could be met without using more than 150 KW of AC power, I'd qualify the system as having an extremely efficient design if based on speaker cabinets. Consumption of under a megawatt max would place it in the realm of average small commercial systems. How many people here realize that at average home system (in)efficiencies the above would require over 5 megawatts of line power in? Now, dropping some likely assumptions based on the thread, can you picture a more efficient way of producing that energy? How about a pipe organ with about 40 HP of blowers, and a rank of pipes out to 64' added? That could require under 50 KW of AC power in. For comparison, the average moderately large church pipe organ has 16' pipes and a 3 HP blower, while the largest Austin organ I've ever been inside uses a 15 HP blower, a ton of different special pipes on two air chests about 6.5' x 15' x 30', but wouldn't produce sound below 16 Hz or at the required volume (1922 World's Fair organ in Philly is one of the largest in the world). Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Do it near resonance! (203)732-0575 (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00008 Date: 07/01/97 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 03:08am \/To: BONNIE GOODWIN (Read 0 times) Subj: system balancing -> I'd like to be able to generate 10+ KW of acoustic energy (NOT amp -> power ) from 8 Hz through 5 KHz, tapering down to 1 KW of -> acoustic energy at 25 KHz, within an area the size of a 500 person BG> But you haven't stated whether you want to just chop or puree the BG> audience... maybe just make a cannibal soup? Fine young ones will do. ;-/ Didn't you catch the part that I only wanted to stimulate their minds? (and outdo so called mind-blowing sex, of course.... ) Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Do it near resonance! (203)732-0575 (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00009 Date: 07/01/97 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 04:02am \/To: DAVID SCHMOLL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: system balancing DS> Anyway, Apogee hasn't installed anything, since nothing new has been I'm having deja vu that I've encountered this same BS before, but I can't place where and how. DS> bought. The church system has some problems, anad the church was DS> exploring their options to solve them with a new speaker system, but I DS> think they are missing the point of their problems. For example: the DS> room has brick on the side walls and behind the choir and the room DS> echo's like crazy. The room supposedly has a resonance at 250 hz, so DS> the 1/3 band EQ has all bands below 50 hz cut, the 250 and 500 bands DS> cut, as well as several other higher bands cut (all -15 db), creating DS> holes that I feel destroys the balance to my ears. I suggested treating Without knowing the layout or studying coverage or form of service details, there are a couple things you could consider. Short of acoustic mods to the building, reducing the distance from speakers to audience cuts down on the relative impact of reflections and standing waves. Cheap multitap delay lines allow preserving the distance-time relationship from front to back of the hall when used with a number of smaller speakers and amps, better than old systems that tried this with parallel speakers. For music some extra bass reinforcement up front could be used. What are they using for mics? I've found the AT mini gooseneck condensers give good results in church applications, by allowing low working distances and superior general audio quality over commonly used dynamic stage mics. Is there any advantage to separate music and voice systems, such as the above for voice reinforcement, and a typical double stack auditorium style music system with more relative low end and peak output capability? Of course, you could always do what the better churches do. Cut out the music other than what members may make with traditional drums and other hand held instruments, while holding services out in some nice quiet woods. Skyclad makes that fit more naturally. Dirty jokes on topics of ethical and unethical power exchange among people, or people and their environment, can make for interesting pieces of ritual too. If the circle gets too big for everyone to hear, it may be time to split off another coven. ;-) Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Do it near resonance! (203)732-0575 (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00010 Date: 07/01/97 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 04:20am \/To: DAVID SCHMOLL (Read 0 times) Subj: system balancing TS> In other words, some oversimplified sales TS> literature to comfort people trying TS> to have incompetent volunteers pretend to TS> be able to handle things they should DS> Well I'm a volunteer and I don't have a degree in sound, but I have DS> been around sound systems as a musician for 25 years, and audio has Still, I'd guess you know the type of church volunteer I meant. TS> note that they likely suggest tests with TS> speakers disconnected to avoid being TS> blamed for destroying garbage better TS> taken direct to the dumpster as found in DS> Fortunately in this case the church actually has some nice equipment, DS> such as EV, Crown, QSC, Rane, but there are no names visable on the It happens, though it's amazing how low priority good speech intelligibility is to many churches, as well as how poorly installed some systems with decent equipment may be. DS> hung from the ceiling and are spread out in a semi-circle to cover the DS> room, with 2 bass bins and 4 mid/high cabinets. The mid/high cabinets DS> have a nice sound, but I don't like the bass sound, as it is very DS> subdued and indistinct - maybe that is what churches like? Hardly. Some cathedrals are designed for long reverberation times with unreinforced choirs and organs. They're usually a pain for sermons, and lend themselves to distributed speaker systems. Intelligibility from reinforcement audience members don't fully distinguish from direct sound is the goal. TS> Dare I mention architectural acoustics, TS> and differences between music fidelity TS> and speech intelligibility? DS> That is the real problem, and you can read about it a bit more in a DS> previous message. Simply deadening things as your other post suggests can be a poor solution, depending on other factors. Controlling live and dead surfaces is complex enough it's not a good do it yourself job, though substantial consulting and treatment addressing those issues can get expensive fast if qualified engineering services are used. That leaves considering work arounds, as suggested in my previous message. The sharper band amp is a poor solution. Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Do it near resonance! (203)732-0575 (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00011 Date: 07/07/97 From: DAVE HALLIDAY Time: 08:22pm \/To: BONNIE GOODWIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Website for AUDIO > Thanks for those examples on how to enclose audio files. I will > probably use something like you suggested, perhaps Real Audio or > Shockwave. I am now developing my personal page on Pacific Bell > Internet, as a beta tester and while severely limited in space yet, at > least it is a start, and without a start, nothing gets done! If you are developing a web page, check out HomeSite: www.dexnet.com although they were recently sold to Alaire. It allows you to get into the actual editing of the pages, plus, it toggles back and forth with IE so you can preview them. Excellent help with clipable samples... Full demo ( 30-day life ) available from the site. I tried a couple others but went over to HomeSite after using it for a day. Also, my employer bought a site liscence for their internal use. Considering that these are the people who make FrontPage... --- Via Silver Xpress V4.4 [Reg] * Origin: Grey Matter * Seattle, WA * 1:343/210 * (206) 528-1941 (1:343/210) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00012 Date: 07/07/97 From: GREG MACLELLAN Time: 10:38pm \/To: JASON LAVOIE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Website for AUDIO BG> signal source, guitar amps intentionally distort and have other than a BG> flat frequency response intentionally, to make the guitar sound right. JL> what's "right" ? what a guitar sounds like. If you run a guitar right into the pa, it ususally doesn't sound like a guitar (with the execption of a couple types .. i've played a couple shows with a guitar right into the pa, and they sounded good (of course, you don't get a 'rock' sound, but that's ok since it was a jazz gig ;) ttyl, greg lw@softhome.net --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: * Chaos BBS * 6i3.389.O8i6 * Kingston, ON! (1:249/174) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00013 Date: 07/01/97 From: MATT ION Time: 02:15pm \/To: BONNIE GOODWIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: system balancing And so it came to pass, on 06-28-97 09:39, that Bonnie Goodwin spake unto Terry Smith: BG> As far as stages go, ideally you want the gains to be set to a BG> level that is not to soft, not too hard, but is JUST right.. Don't BG> allow peaks to distort that stage, and don't have the gain set so BG> high to get a weak signal through that your noise floor goes BG> through the ceiling. A rule of thumb we used in the car stereo shop, but which can be applied equally well to other areas of audio, is to bring up the gain of each stage until it JUST starts to clip, then back it off a bit. This process was used avoid thing like amps set too low, necessitating the deck being pushed to clipping to get any kind of decent SPL, or amps cranked wide-open, so that the volume control on the deck essentially had only "silent" and "ear-bleeding" settings. BG> Many mixers have a detent or center unity gain position as an BG> example. "Unity gain" being theoretically ideal, of course. The other factor to keep in mind is that MOST "pro" gear has a nominal +4dBV input/output line levels, while most "semi-pro" and "home" equipment runs nominally at -10dBV (some "pro" gear allows you to select +4/-10 as well, to allow proper line-level matching). ------------------------------------------- Love, luck, and lollipops... Matt --- Sqed/32 1.10/unreg * Origin: la Point Strangiato... (1:153/920.2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: EBC00014 Date: 07/01/97 From: MATT ION Time: 02:17pm \/To: KEITH KNAPP (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Website for AUDIO And so it came to pass, on 06-29-97 21:26, that Keith Knapp spake unto Bonnie Goodwin: KK> In every way _except_ those, I think digital is way cool, and KK> clearly the wave of the future. Perhaps the more enlightened among KK> us analog curmudgeons are not hankering for the past, but merely KK> for a digital future that doesn't sound synthetic or irritating. KK> Oddly enough, if I were an audio professional and had to buy KK> hardware, I'd probably buy digital for cost reasons. But I'd still KK> put a 12AX7 on the monitor outs. So there. Nyah nyah! I'd certainly never use tubes in the D/A conversion stages (which I think someone alluded to here a while back), but they should be sweet on the final preamp outs.