--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEL00003 Date: 10/15/96 From: BONNIE GOODWIN Time: 12:31pm \/To: MATT ION (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: BBE 462 Hi Matt! -> DS>> I would like some opinions on the idea of adding a BBE 462 Sonic -> DS>> Maximizer to my Dolby ProLogic system. I Like the sound of my -> DS>> system, so I'm not trying to fix any problems, just improve it -> if DS>> possible. -> CH> If that BBE 462 does what I suspect it does, DON'T put it BEFORE -> CH> ANY DOLBY PROCESSING!! Any processing PRIOR to the Dolby CH> -> processing will foul up Dolby, thus rendering it next to useless. -> Umm, Cameron... he's talking about Dolby Pro Logic, a method of -> encoding multiple audio channels (such as surround sound)... NOT -> Dolby noise reduction. I have to side with Cameron on this one. Use the BBE462 (if you feel you have to) AFTER the Dolby, not before it. Dolby encoding/decoding should not be messed with and NOTHING should get in the way of that processing EVER if you want accuracy in the process. Dolby Pro Logic is extremely phase sensitive, as the basic process is an adaption of the original Sansui QS quadraphonic processing as used in the original Dolby Stereo. Of course, this would make the BBE useful for only two of the channels rather than all of them like being inserted before the Dolby encoding. While Barcus Berry makes some nice pickups for instruments and such, I'm not convinced that their Maximizer is really worth bothering with, that it really does much that is beneficial enough to put it in the chain. A number of reviewers have called some of their products "voodoo" and other non-flattering things. Bonnie *:> --- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0249 * Origin: The Capitol City Gateway, Since Dec 1979, 916-381-8788 (1:203/909) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEL00004 Date: 10/15/96 From: BONNIE GOODWIN Time: 12:33pm \/To: JOE BEELS (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: BBE 462 Hi Joe! -> > If that BBE 462 does what I suspect it does, DON'T put it BEFORE -> ANY > DOLBY PROCESSING!! Any processing PRIOR to the Dolby -> processing will -> -> It's one flavor of aural exciter... Exactly! Bonnie *:> --- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0249 * Origin: The Capitol City Gateway, Since Dec 1979, 916-381-8788 (1:203/909) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEL00005 Date: 10/15/96 From: BONNIE GOODWIN Time: 12:23pm \/To: JAMIE HOWARTH (Read 4 times) Subj: Howdy. Hi Jamie! > Is there any real reason why normal house speakers cannot be put into -> a car? Not aurally, if you have a place to put them.. but in an accident, they could be lethal if a corner of a speaker cabinet hit your head! I've done this a few times in the past, one time using a couple of Rat Shack Solo 1s with high frequency horns on each side, and the most rediculous was using a set of Altec A7-500s which were normally my keyboard sound system then in my van! Bonnie *:> --- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0249 * Origin: The Capitol City Gateway, Since Dec 1979, 916-381-8788 (1:203/909) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEL00006 Date: 10/16/96 From: JOHN ALLEN Time: 08:17am \/To: JAMIE HOWARTH (Read 4 times) Subj: House Speakers In Cars The best reason I can think of for not putting house speakers in cars is that they usually are not made to tolerate the vibrations and temperature extremes they will face in a vehicle. Next, on my list of thinking back to my teen years would be that they would do little to enhance your love life taking up 75% of the back seat. Cheers, John --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: The Union Jack BBS, Phoenix, AZ, USA. 602-274-9921 (1:114/260) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEL00007 Date: 10/15/96 From: DAVE HALLIDAY Time: 10:51am \/To: JAMIE HOWARTH (Read 4 times) Subj: Howdy. JH>Is there any real reason why normal house speakers cannot be put into a >car? Size and resistance to heat and cold. Speakers are designed to work with a specific enclosure volume and a home speaker, requiring a cubic foot or so wouldn't work well in a car door with a couple of cubic inches. Also, parked cars get very hot/cold and these extremes can cause problems with speakers - adhesives working loose, cones and baskets warping, etc... Also, since a car has much higher ambient noise, the speakers are usually played at higher sound levels. Different design than a home system designed to reproduce subtilties. TTYL - Dave --- QMPro 1.53 This virus requires VBRUN300.DLL * Origin: Grey Matter : (206) 526-2400 (1:343/210) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEL00008 Date: 10/14/96 From: GORDON GILBERT Time: 07:48pm \/To: JOHN ALLEN (Read 4 times) Subj: Legacy Impact Sub -=> Quoting John Allen to Steve Mccoin <=- JA> I just completed setup of my Legacy Impact Subwoofer and am JA> really thrilled with what it adds to Laser Disks for Home JA> Theater!!! While the Focus loudspeakers are extraordinary for I recall you saying the same thing about a certain "other brand" subwoofer when you first got it, which you then slowly began to tire of. I'm concerned that you once again say it adds to movies, but not music. Despite finding that my sub isn't the fastest in the world, it does work well with most music and movies. I've been keeping track of comments on subs (especially the sunfire) on R.A.H-E and I've been disappointed with what I've read so far. From how you describe the Legacy Sub, I'm having doubts about whether it might be a suitable replacement either (I just read some bad opinions about the Sunfire Sub last night that it's low and fast, but not "musical"). JA> easily able to achieve that, yet keep a rich smoothness to the JA> effect. I am really thrilled with the results. I get the JA> background rumble of the submarine and/or spaceship without the JA> dialog having to be at theater level. What's wrong with a theater level dialog? I don't find theaters to usually have that loud of dialog. Their power output is probably a *lot* higher, but it's the listening level at the actual seats that actually matters. It may seem louder because of the actual room, however, and admittedly, some theater operators assume people are stone deaf, but others have no idea what a volume control is for. JA> I trie it with CDs (music only) and found it added very very JA> little to the sound of the Focus...and...had to be pulled This could be for a number of reasons. If I recall correctly, you said you were going to set the sub at 40Hz crossover? How steep is the crossover slope? If it's pretty high (mine is 36dB/octave, for instance), it could be that it's adding very little because most music discs (excepting certain Japanese ones Mark keeps reccomending to me, rap and some synthesized rock cds) have very little actual bass content below 60Hz or so. Since the Foci are doing the rest of the work, this might explain the phenomina and also why it's easier to crank the sub up higher (with very litle musical reference to gauge it by or even compare to). As an experiment, you might try disabling your main woofers and crossing the sub higher to see how it performs "musically." It might also give me a better idea if I want to pursue this sub. ;-) I'm currently crossing at around 85-90Hz since I'm not using my main woofers. I still detect no directionality in my system. You should be able to cross close to that to compare your sub to your main woofers by disabling one at at time. * AmyBW v2.14 * ... "Only Amiga makes it possible." - Commodore-Amiga, Inc. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: CanCom TBBS - Canton, OH (1:157/629) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEM00000 Date: 10/17/96 From: GORDON GILBERT Time: 05:29am \/To: JOHN ALLEN (Read 3 times) Subj: SUBS -=> On 16 Oct 96 14:14 you wrote to me <=- JA> The sub arrived in good shape and was a snap to connect. JA> Moving around the 120 pound monster for best placement was a I know what you mean. The AL-IIIs are 85 lbs each and 6 feet tall with nothing good to grab onto (try moving those around about a 100 times over the past two years trying to find an optimal spot) I've come to the conclusion, I should be treating the back wall instead. I want to get a larger curtain rod just have a nice thick curtain across the entire wall. It would look good, not have parallel surfaces, and damp the rear wave enough to maybe partially cure the room problems. The Definitive Sub is worse yet at around 100 lbs. Fortunately, I didn't have to move it around much. I've got to admit the system sounded *damn* good today listening to Tori Amos's last two CDs.... If you can get past some bizarre/strange/different lyrics, those are two of the highest quality pop/rock CDs I've encountered, foriegn or domestic. Her voice couldn't sound more perfect. There's serious bass, more minimalist arrangements than not, and she can play the piano (and harpsichord) like no one's business. I'll be adding them to my Sound Quality List with an A+ rating in the next couple of days to my WEB site (TBA announced once I'm sure of its location...debating whether to stay with my current provider or not as I've had more than a few service problems with them). JA> for exaggerated bass for Home Theater apps. To explain: I JA> sometimes like the Pro Logic effect in TV shows and of course JA> from my LDs, but I often prefer or must have the volume levels JA> somewhat less than theater level. At some point without the JA> subs, I loose the lowest bass feel. With the sub I can exaggerate Sounds like a job for a loudness button! My Carver pre-amp has one, but I never use it. I say the 'ell with the neighbors! (actually it doesn't travel far outside at all, being mostly underground) JA> the lower bass and still have the feel at lower SPL. The space JA> ships and submarines can now still rumble without ticking off JA> anyone trying to catch a nap or reading in the next room. Geez...the next room. I don't know about that, now. You must really have it low. JA> When turned to live performance levels and listening to most JA> of my music I can barely tell that it is there since moving my Hmmm, I won't comment too much as I already sent you a message on this part, which I'll wait for a reply for first, as I would just be duplicating my questions. JA> my system I doubt my amps would get a priority. The Carvers have JA> served me very very well and only a monster Bryston that a JA> friend brought over, has made my system sound better. And I'm pretty much set on moving my TFM-35x over to surround duty and buying one of those nasty new Sunfire amps. :) 1200 watts into 2 ohms might just tame these power sucking monster speakers. Considering I'm in the process of upgrading my computer for heavy internet use, it might be awhile, though. AC-3 can wait. I spend 99% of the time listening to music. I'd like to replace my cd player with a Sony XA3ES too, it being about as close as one can get to state of the art without paying through the nose. JA> comparing the 4X price tag to the small difference I detected, I Well, Carver amps are voiced and TFM modified to sound like Bob's Silver Seven tubes. While I haven't heard *those*, I don't doubt the TFM series sound a little different than a solid-state-as-you-can-get Bryston. I plan on trying the High Current->Ribbons, High Voltage->Woofers option on the Sunfire, if/when I get the thing for an in home trial or purchase. It seems ideal for Ribbon Hybrids or Electrostatics. I wouldn't actually want the hassles of a real tube amp, though...read my comments on my guitar amp below. JA> wouldn't even consider it. The Carver Pre-Amp is absolute TOP JA> DRAWER !!! I doubt I will ever get rid of it. I have the Carver The only thing I don't like about my Carver pre-amp is the cheap little balance pot. It's just a tad noisy when adjusting and it has too small a travel range to make fine adjustments. Otherwise, I can't complain too much. The Sonic Holography is incredible. I refuse to buy a preamp without it or the equivalent of it. That's why I'd like to get a Lexicon with Panorma, which has a nice digital balance pot, AC-3 and THX capability, etc. JA> CD with tubed output...a very rare bird I have liked since the JA> beginning. Until they design and build a Transport/Reader to RAM I have a tube guitar amp. Frankly, I hate it. The replacement tube I bought sounds like crap and the original lasted barely a year. I also found I don't care for "tube" distortion all that much. I bought a solid-state distortion pedal and I like it much better than the overdrive on the Fender Champ. It does have that nice blue "glow" though and it makes a good space heater if you set it beside you in the winter. ;-) I could have gotten a Fender solid-state amp with dual drivers, over twice the power, and a few effects built in for the same price. Somehow, I let the guy talk me into the thing.... JA> to DAC unit that does not require anti jitter doo dads and JA> different enhancers, I will probably stick with it. I will That's why I want the Sony XA3ES. All in one unit. Almost no jitter. Top notch sound, reasonable features, and almost indistinguishable from its top-of-the-line XA7ES brother. Both prove state of the art need not cost a fortune. Ironic that Sony also sells dirt cheap crap. :) JA> passive Chase Pro Logic decoder. For $99 it does very well but JA> lacks many of the features of the Yamaha, Lexicon or Meridian. I I plan on getting a passive decoder as well once I get the Sunfire for use with the TFM-35x and the Definitive surrounds. However, I found a low-level model that can plug into a tape loop instead (forget the brand offhand). JA> So most of my pionted little barbs at Carver is not about JA> their products of which I happily have a house full. It is about JA> their service and a few people therein who treated me more like JA> they were doing me a very big favor than servicing a product for That's strange. The person I dealt with (and asked for every time) when I was originally sorting out the mystery crackling sound and getting a replacement crossover for the one that arrived damaged was nothing but helpful. They replaced both drivers and the crossover while sorting the problem out with no cost to me. The only complaint I had was that the guy they contracted was slow in getting around to actually come over and fix it. JA> a very loyal customer. Were I to become wealthy, I am afraid JA> I would have to rethink my Best Bang For The Buck/The $ensible JA> Sound thinking and really become outragious in my JA> selections...especially amps, if for no other reason than because Not me. I want a Sunfire. That's it. A used Krell would do the same thing, but it would be harder to find a place for since it would run very hot while the Sunfire runs cold, even at full output, due to its revolutionary design. The Sunfire is just "too cool" (literally) to worry about any minor sound differences. The TFM I already have sounds great in the system. It's just a bit underpowered (at only 350 watts into 4 ohms) for running the woofer in parallel at moderately high volume levels. JA> Oh, BTW, if you get a chance, read The $ensible Sound report JA> on the Stereophile Hi Fi SHow in New York. You will laugh your I would, if I could, but no one carries it around here. * AmyBW v2.14 * ... I saw Elvis. He sat between me and Bigfoot on the UFO. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: CanCom TBBS - Canton, OH (1:157/629) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEM00001 Date: 10/17/96 From: JOHN ALLEN Time: 09:58am \/To: GORDON GILBERT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Legacy Impact Sub > I recall you saying the same thing about a certain "other > brand" subwoofer when you first got it, which you then slowly began to > tire of. I'm concerned that you once again say it adds to movies, but > not music. Despite finding that my sub isn't the fastest in the > world, it does work well with most music and movies. I've been > keeping track of comments on subs (especially the sunfire) on R.A.H-E I have never experienced a sub that matched up so effortlessly to main loudspeakers, as do the Legacy offerings. I wouldn't even venture a guess on how they would match up with any other speakers. To that end I can honestly report that the build quality is the best I have seen. They are extremely attractive and lack totally the "industrial" look of many subs. The are the same design and build as the Focus, just half height. I now have about 100 hours on the subs, and they have loosened up some, so I believe I have a better feel for them and can give you a better picture of what they are doing in my system. This has been complicated by the fact that I changed the complete alignment of my listening area and main loudspeakers at the sametime I added the subwoofer (give or take a day or two). So some sorting out has had to be done as nothing is as it was before. The speed and reproduction (with "main" woofers off-line) are excellent. Regardless of musical range they lack the boominess often encountered and have a "musical" sound to them. The crossover is like yours on a 36 db/oct and I adjusted the cross to 125 Hz for the test. Regardless of where I crossed them, them maintained their musicality and resisted boominess. There WAS a difference in the 60 Hz and below notes between what I get with the Focus and what the sub brought. There seemed just a slight bit more authority with the sub at live performance level and a more noticable report at background music level listening. In some cases such as for background music, this wouldn't be very desirable to me. So for matching to the Focus they are a dream. With the Focus, for most music (classical, jazz, chamber music, most vocals, etc) they are unneccessary. For my 60/70s hard rock and New Age listening they are brilliant, accurate and very enjoyable without being overwhelming. For movie soundtracks they allow me a flexibility to "overemphasize" the deeper bass sound effects so that I might enjoy them more at generally lower overall volume levels and still have the feel of the effects. This IS NOT accurate reproduction, and probably sounds nuts to golden ear videophiles, etc. But it is the audio experience I prefer for my movies, and it could only be accomplished with a good quality sub. The difference between this sub and the one I originally experimented with is that the Legacy seems of much better quality and I do not find myself getting fatigued listening to it. The first one which I mentioned to you, as well as two that I built, wore me out and after maybe an hour became distracting and unpleasant. The subs I auditioned just couldn't seem to make the seamless blend with the Focus the way the Legacy did, which surprised me. There always seemed to be a hump or drop out that couldn't totally be eliminated. It seems that I cannot fully explain the satisfaction with the Legacy sub without taking away from the Focus, since the Focus is capable of copious amounts of accurate low bass. Despite this and the Focus ratings I have set my crossover point to 80Hz and it seems very comfortable there. It will require the least amount of adjustment there and seems to have the best sound. I have about 100 hours on them, so that my change slightly if the speakers continue "breaking in". Will let you know of any changes. I can imagine the Legacy sub matching up to your Carvers, very nicely, by what I have observed here. However, the $1295 is a sizable investment, and I believe I would check out everything locally first. Cheers, John grump@netzone.com --- AdeptXBBS v1.07g (Registered) * Origin: Tempe, AZ USA (602)491-5285 (1:114/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEN00000 Date: 10/17/96 From: CRAIG SCHROEDER Time: 12:24am \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: REAL Speakers Hello All, Can anyone give me some insights on REAL speakers? I listened to a set today (8") and they seemed very impressive. They were run by a Carver Research ($4000) amp, so I wasn't sure how much credit went to the amp.... and it was in a perfect demo room, too. Regards, -=Craig=- craigclu@win.bright.net 1:2245/201 --- Platinum Xpress/Wildcat! v1.2L * Origin: THE BAUD HOUSE : 715.234.7773 ->1:2245/201 (1:2245/201) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 183 AUDIO Ref: DEN00001 Date: 10/18/96 From: JOHN ALLEN Time: 11:46am \/To: GORDON GILBERT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: SUBS > of the time listening to music. I'd like to replace my cd player with > a Sony XA3ES too, it being about as close as one can get to state of > the art without paying through the nose. Haven't read about that model yet. But, I have read quite a bit about a $500 Marantz that is suppose to rank right up there with the Gigabuck units. Have not had the chance to hear one though. > JA> Oh, BTW, if you get a chance, read The $ensible Sound report > JA> on the Stereophile Hi Fi SHow in New York. You will laugh your > I would, if I could, but no one carries it around here. I'll take it to my friends, scan it, and forward via WWW over the weekend or during next week...whenever he comes in off the road. I haven't yet broke down and purchased a scanner. It is far far down on my toys list. I too have to upgrade my computer. I now have a 100Mhz/32MB RAM/EIDE/USR - Everything. Want to go to 200Mhz(not the Pentium Pro..too expensive as a new motherboard would be needed also...and my old 16 bit Windows apps would run like crap) up the RAM to 64MB and go to Ultra Wide SCSI. I am doing it in two stages. CPU & RAM...then SCSI drive due to the expense. I figure that should keep me current for the next year or so. Am waiting to install Warp 4 until I change CPUs and up the RAM. 60ns EDO is now going for $39 for 8MB and $100 for 16MB SIMMS (72 Pin). 200Mhz CPU is about $650/PPro 200 about $750 and the PPro MBoard about $375. Cheers, John Hillary to John, "I'm here to give you supersex". John to Hillary, "I'll just have the soup, thank you". --- AdeptXBBS v1.07g (Registered) * Origin: Tempe, AZ USA (602)491-5285 (1:114/20)