--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00001 Date: 07/24/97 From: MARK LEWIS Time: 09:46pm \/To: MIKE POWER (Read 0 times) Subj: variety???? -=> Quoting Mike Power to All <=- MP> doesn't anyone here ever talk about sports other than basketball, MP> hockey or boxing??? Try talking about things that some people may not MP> hear about normally, like sports that you are involved in around the MP> city that don't normally get attention given to them. Finally, someone like me. H However, most sports I would be interested in talking you wouldn't be (No offense, its all Geography). What others interest do you have, and maybe if I have that echo, I can chat to you in that. Kindest Regards, Mark Lewis --- FMail/Win32 1.22+ * Origin: Lateline BBS: Nocturnal Paradise. +61-2-9579-6564 (3:712/841) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00002 Date: 07/28/97 From: NIKI SANDERS Time: 08:44pm \/To: KEVIN WINDHAM (Read 0 times) Subj: Motocross!!! No, not really. Where are you from though. You uh used a word I haven't heard for a while that I kinda miss. Fly. Yeah. I moved recently and I miss the way my old friends used to talk. Uh-huh. So, wassup? Sorry I don't know what motocross is:(. So what is it? Motocross that is. Bye! :) -Niki- --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: NCRL Electronic Library HST/Dual 28,800 (1:344/17) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00003 Date: 07/27/97 From: MICHAEL HANSEN Time: 05:15pm \/To: MIKE POWER (Read 0 times) Subj: variety???? Hej Mike! Lrdag Juli 19 1997 16:30, Mike Power wrote to All: MP> hockey or boxing??? Try talking about things that some people may not MP> hear about normally, like sports that you are involved in around the MP> city that don't normally get attention given to them. We could talk about Tour de France???? Maybee it's a bit late TEAM S.S.R.P. MVH Michael Hansen 2:236/501.999 ... Mike Power sidder ned ved sin computer --- * Origin: School.sys Corrupted! (D)elete homework (S)tay at ho (2:236/501.999) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00004 Date: 07/29/97 From: STEVEN HULING Time: 10:42pm \/To: NIKI SANDERS (Read 0 times) Subj: BASEBALL The catcher's name is Lopez. He is playing very well, even though he is beat up a little. McGriff is also playing with a hurt hamstring. Andruw Jones is playing center like an everday center fielder(even better that most). I hope they keep their momentum, and play their best whgen Post Season comes around. -Steven --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Inner Sanctum - Full Internet Svc (813) 848-6055 (1:3619/21) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00005 Date: 07/29/97 From: NIKI SANDERS Time: 12:20pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: swimming Does anybody like swimming? I mean as a sport. Like on a team, for medals. I was just wondering!! I know it's not really popular, but ya know,it's fun. bye-bye -Niki- --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: NCRL Electronic Library HST/Dual 28,800 (1:344/17) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00006 Date: 07/30/97 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 09:44am \/To: NIKI SANDERS (Read 0 times) Subj: Baseball The 49ers traded Niki Sanders to the Jets for saying: NS> You know? The Brave s have a lot of good stuff goin for 'em. Like NS> their catcher. Rodriguiz isn't it? But I think his contract is up or You're thinking of Texas. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Bill James, James Dunlop. Coincidence? (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00007 Date: 07/30/97 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 09:44am \/To: NIKI SANDERS (Read 0 times) Subj: o.k Niki accepted an invitation to the Tidy Bowl by saying: NS> The Lakers? I like Shaq. Frankly, I don't. I know that there are those that love him but as long as he continues to shoot free throws like he does, the Lakers will never win a championship. NS> O.k. So Kemp is a little too aggressive. But what about Peter NS> Vecsey? NBC shoulda suspended him. I'm serios. Let me ask you something -- if this was all so wrong then why didn't Kemp sue him? You will notice that Michael Irvin and Erik Williams sued the police and the press for what happened to them so why didn't Kemp? I think that while its really not that big of a deal (unless Kemp plays drunk), there was probably some truth to what was said. NS> Uh,Pippen in Seattle? Uh-uh. No way. He may be smart and he may be NS> just da bomb, but Kemp and Payton have AMAZING chemistry. The kind of chemistry that has caused them to explode in the playoffs. I'll take Pippen over Kemp any day (I'm not a fan of Payton, however, I respect him more than Kemp because he keeps his problems in the locker room). Pippen's only done one thing on the floor that I've disagreed with and while Jordan says that he might have done it differently (As if Jackson was going to call something for someone else with Jordan in the game), he said that he could see Pippen's point. NS> So really, why do you know all this stuff? First of all, I'm a lot older than you and I've seen a lot more of the things that you might think of as "history." Second, if you want to learn more then buy a book like the NBA Encyclopedia -- it's very biased but it still has some good info. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: On the 7th day, God created the Dallas Cowboys (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EBZ00008 Date: 07/30/97 From: ED GRINNELL Time: 09:56am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Expansion -- Dilution -- Bah... One of the funniest things that I've seen lately has been the arguments about how expansion has diluted sports. I say "Funniest" because many of the people are saying the same things and most of those remarks originated in some uneducated sportswriter's mind. Many of the fans and the sportswriters would rather take the word of some person than actually do research or take the time to actually THINK about how ludicrous the arguments are. I'm NOT going to rehash some of the statistical info that has been used by both sides of the issue, I'm going to look at each sport and their affect on each other plus population considerations. Let's look at the *dilution* effect. People say that 28 ML teams (or 30 NFL or 29 NBA) teams are far too many. Would you believe that long before there was expansion, there were 33 *major league* teams playing? In 1884 - yes, that's EIGHTEEN EIGHTY-FOUR - 3 leagues had 33 teams playing (13 were in the American Association, 8 were in the National League and 12 were in the Union Association). Now, before you go and dismiss the AA and UA as inferior to the NL, let's not forget that professional baseball was still in its infancy (3 of the present day teams played in the AA and one, Cincinnati, jumped from the NL to the AA and then back) and that there were MINOR LEAGUE (Hell, college) teams that were as good or better than some of the so-called MAJOR LEAGUE teams. The NL was no better than any league that popped up (and that includes the AL) until relatively recently when blacks were permitted to play in increasing numbers. Leagues failed because of an inability to draw fans not lack of talent. Unlike modern day sports franchises, there was no media revenue to fight off opposing leagues so it was often the ones with the more determined individuals that survived and not necessarily the ones with the best talent. Let's also not forget that for 49 years, professional baseball's competition for the best athletes (At that time, the standard being *white* males) wasn't from football or basketball but amateur sports (Professionals were looked down at for a great number of years). Playing for the "joy" and "purity" of competition was thought of as the right thing to do and professionals were considered as sleazy then as lawyers are today. Even with the formation of the NFL (and the NBA), MLB was still getting more competition for their talents from the amateurs (But, the Cleveland Browns and Brooklyn Dodgers were about to expand the talent pool for both sports. The NBA would be later join them and the beginning of the end for MLB's dominance would be set in motion and the *dilution* effect would become an even more laughable argument). Oh, I mentioned that there were 33 ML teams in 1884, professional basketball has 29 NOW but that's only 1 more than what was around in 1970, 1971 and 1974 and 2 more than what was around in 1972, 1973 and 1975 (BTW, for those that believe in the fantasy that the NBA absorbed a lot of ABA players after the merger -- don't. Most of the NBA teams wouldn't admit that these players were good enough and most of the talent that made it into the "NBA" after the merger were on former ABA teams, who went with the familiar. Had there not been a merger and the ABA been allowed to die, it's doubtful that more than 20 former players would have found their way onto NBA rosters. It was only after they competed on a nightly basis that former ABA players got their dues from the Establishment). Before the NBA became the NBA (it was two entities, the BAA and the NBL), there was between 19-23 teams in both leagues and after the merger, there were 17 teams. 9 franchises (6 in the first year) were dropped over the next 5 years because of *financial* NOT talent considerations. I didn't forget the NFL. Taking into consideration their ability to compete at one time or the other, I identify the NFL, 4 incarnations of the AFL, the AAFC, WFL, USFL and CFL (I dismiss Arena Football and the World League) as the entities competing, at one time or another, for football's talent. There were 39 franchises last year (30 NFL and 9 CFL), however, that *pales* in comparison to 1983 (49), 1984 (55) and 1985 (51). When the NFL and AFL (1st) were around in 1926, as many as 38 teams were competing (In fact, there were 17+ professional franchises in operation from 1920 to 1941. It wasn't until after WW II that franchises were back to that level. When the AFL's 4th and final incarnation arrived in 1960, there were 30 professional teams competing for talent. The NFL and CFL were not that far from each other in *overall* talent (The same thing could be said about the NFL and AFL. The CFL was on slightly ahead of the AFL during the first 3 years) and the real gap was in the front line stars (The CFL had its share of players that would have been stars in the NFL but not nearly as many as the NFL). The gap between the NFL and CFL NOW is far wider than it was during that '60s or even the '70s. The NFL did not have the money to fend off raids from the AFL, let alone the CFL. It was mostly a mom-and-pop operation so the money that they offered wasn't so great that *any* league couldn't compete with them (Hugh TV contracts in the future would change all that). Ok, I rambled on in three paragraphs so it's time to start putting it all together. If you count it up, there are 100 *big three* franchises competing for talent. For many years, the Big Three was the Big One and it wasn't until the NFL came into existence that MLB had some competition from another *professional* league. If MLB, the NFL or even the NBA were *diluted* by RECENT expansions then maybe those purists who are whining should understand how the so-called Golden Eras of these sports were DILUTED compared to the early days of their sports. MLB is the ultimate *diluted* sport. When the Western League changed its name to the American League and culled away 100+ players from the National League, *something* had to be diluted by far more than can be said about any other expansion since then. The NL retained 51% of its hitters and 56% of its pitchers. In contrast to that, any of the leagues that expanded retained well over 80% of its players during the year that they expanded. When the AL declared itself a major league in 1901, the number of players being used by a *major* league increased by 137%. In contrast to this, expansions in 1961, 1962, 1969, 1977 and 1993 increased the number of players by 9.5%, 8.9%, 30.2%, 11.5% and 11.7% respectively. All but the 30.2% increase are NOT out of the ordinary for MLB since 1901. There were increases of 10.5% in 1902 (it decreased by 13.3% in 1903), 15.5% in 1909, 11.0% in 1912, 9.5% in 1939, 17.0% in 1946 (dropped 15.0 in 1947) and 13.8% in 1955. During WW II (more so than WW I), the *quality* of the ML player was no where near past standards YET their records are included and their effect on the *diluted* majors aren't considered as great as today when it was far greater (Modern players don't get a break until 30 or more years pass). If you look at the stats of the established teams before 1969, you'll see little or no effect (removing any expansion teams stats from the stats of established teams). In 1969, there was a hugh effect BUT that came from the fact that they lowered the mound and closed up the strike zone and NOT from expansion. 1977 and 1993 do show greater increases but you should know that in 1977, ONLY the AL participated in the expansion draft (and kept all the expansion booty) and the increase was seen in the NL as well. Seattle and Toronto got very little quality for their draft moola so there's no reason to believe that AL AND NL teams were raped of their best talent (If they were then Toronto and Seattle were definitely short-changed). If you look back several years, you'll see that both the NL and AL had seen a decrease in scoring and other stats from 1973 until 1976 (went it was almost back to 1972 levels). 1977 was unusual following 1976 but no so out of line with 1973 to 1975. The 1993 expansion involved both leagues but really, like previous drafts, saw very little significant talent get drafted. The expansion teams did use free agency more than Seattle or Toronto did but it should be noted (sorry Big Cat fans) that they picked up players that might suit their stadium and weren't necessarily in big demand (Galarraga and Bichette had their careers turned around in Colorado). I think that 1993 was a year that saw several young hitters begin to flex their muscle (Mo Vaughn is one that comes to mind) and some teams were giving a lot of time to their young pitchers (Look at what happened to Detroit last year. They were so inept at pitching because they threw their youngsters into the fray but this year, they're better pitchers for it). 1993 opened up more places for younger talent at the every day positions but for the most part, the expansion teams had very little effect on the quality of players on other teams. You're going to have to look elsewhere if you're going to continue the talent. I could go on and I could explain the NFL and NBA but I'm tired. If you were to look at when blacks were allowed to play, increased population (and an increase in the races that started participating), changes in strategy, changes in physical makeup, etc., you'd see that this so-called dilution effect is a load of crap. Expansion teams dig from the very bottom of any league's roster and they merely clear out the deadwood. Free agency has allowed them to get better, faster but that's the ONLY thing that's been to their benefit. --- TrekEd 1.00 * Origin: Does your Big Unit have a Big Hurt? (1:170/1701) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EB^00000 Date: 07/26/97 From: MADHAV SARDA Time: 04:15pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Mark Messier I here Mark Messier could go back to Edmonton. The only problem is that Edmonton doesn't have the money. Glen Sather could try and work the emotion card and Kevin Lowe is already pushing Messier to join him in Edmonton so you never know. Sather is not going to sign Messier for 4 million. Maybe 3.5 but that would be a huge paycut. However, Edmonton is offering a lifetime deal which gives Mess a spot in the staff after he retires which could be seducting. Montreal could take Messier. They need someone to teach all their young guys. Philly might get him. Mess would be a great teacher for Eric Lindros nevermind making an incredible wing man for the Legion of Doom. Imagine that, John LeClair, Eric Lindros, and Mark Messier on the same line. Detroit could go for him but I doubt he'll go there. Same with Vancouver. Of course New York could get him back. Wayne Gretzky would want him there. With Messier out of New York, who knows, maybe Gretzky will push for a trade to go to another team with a chance of winning. Yaaaaaaaaa * Origin: INVISION/2 .:. 403-791-3489 .:. FT.MCMURRAY, AB (1:3402/55) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 114 SPORTS Ref: EB^00001 Date: 07/30/97 From: KAYE SHEN Time: 09:47am \/To: MICHAEL HANSEN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: variety???? MH> We could talk about Tour de France???? MH> Maybee it's a bit late super mario got robbed. he shouldn't have been dq'ed --- RG 10-5 Exp/GE 1.02+ * Origin: The Licking Factory, OS/2 in NJ! (732)815-3146 (1:107/634)