--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5S00005 Date: 05/22/97 From: KALMAN DANIEL Time: 03:53am \/To: COSTIN MANDA (Read 0 times) Subj: piracy Costin Manda wrote to Kalman Daniel on 15 May 97 04:11:09 Hali Costin Manda ! ML>> Just because you can't afford something does that mean you ML>> should steal? So if i can't afford a TV I should steal it? KD> The difference is, that if you steal a TV, someone won't have it. If KD> you copy a software, noone looses anything. CM> Come on, a simple "yes" would have been enough :> Perhaps it would, but I don't want anyone stealing my TV with excuses like mine :-) CM> I have to say CM> that it is quite annoying to make a program and to see everyone not CM> even thanking you, even complaining about it, without paying a dime. Of course, on the other hand how annoying it is when you buy a software and it's protected by hardware lock or other primitive technologies and only the people who use them legally suffer ? CM> development would suffer. And excuse me: if you can't protect your CM> software from piracy using software techniques, why wonder everyone is CM> using it? There isn't any protection that would last too long. ML>> A lot of companies offer demo programs. KD> Some do, some don't. CM> Oh-oh! Deom programs. Like "Press a key! You see, if you'd have CM> bought the full program for only all your money, that key would've CM> work" :-) CM> Demos are a pain in the bottom. Only when I think of a message CM> around here that offered a DOS 6.0 with upgrade to 6.2 for _only_ 10$. The funny thing is, that MS-DOS costs about $45 here, so we would be actually happy if it was only ten bucks. CM> And speaking of protection of software: program in Windows! CM> Nobody even bothers to start the damn thing up, how could anyone crack CM> a program in that catastrophy? Unfortunatelly, most new games and utilities are written for Windows 95. hey take up about 4-5 times as much space, twice as much memory and are so damn slow and buggy that you'd never use something like that under DOS. ML>> If you pirate from a friend you can try theirs on their computer. KD> Don't tell me you see a huge difference between trying out something KD> at your friend's, or copying it, trying it at home and then erasing KD> it. Do you really commit a crime if you erase it in say, an hour ? CM> Hey! What is that "pirate from a friend"? If he is a friend of CM> yours, then you _take_ from a friend. And you erase it in an hour if CM> you don't like it... I agree with that. Only some licenses do not even allow selling a software completely, let only lending or renting it. CM> To make a program you need a lot of other little useful programs. CM> If you'd have to pay for ll of them you'd get broke before you even get CM> started. Of course nobody pays for everything, only for software they CM> can't crack... I don't think so. People do pay for good shareware to support the author, or play for CD-ROM games which are cheaper than copying the CD. CM> And another thing: I have a program, a demo. If I CM> debug it and deshareware it, does that mean I pirated something? I guess not, because it's yours in the eyes of the law. CM> I mean: the demo was mine. Is there a law that may forbid me to do CM> whatever I please with the files on my computer? That's a different question, because theoretically the software you buy belongs to the author, you only have the right to use it. Therefore, since it's not yours, you can't modify it. Theoretically. ML>> i don't know anyone who has ever later paid for what the ML>> pirated. KD> Well, you live quite far from here, so it's not your fault that you KD> haven't met me before :-) CM> Oh, that refreshing smiley face... :) For a moment I thought you CM> were serious. I am serious about thinking that we should pay for shareware products we ike. I don't mean we should pay for 20 different compression programs which we eep only to decompress our exotic friend's programs. No. Only for programs which we really like, and want to support the author. I know of about 10 programs that I think are really useful for me every day so I should support the author. 10 out of, say a thousand I have tested and tossed away... CM> Yeah, yeah... All the copyright protecters blame the piracy: "the CM> prices are high because less people are paying for our product" Last time I read it in a DOOM clone game. It was a demo, yet it was NOT freely distributable. I wonder how it made to the CD magazine I usually uy... CM> but CM> have you even heard of a market of monopoly where the prices lower by CM> themself? No, but there is no monopoly 'round here... If someone wants to sell a sofware cheap to get more customers, he can do so, and it may worth it. CM> So everyone: spare me the "good guy" concept... nobody is a CM> good guy, there are only smart guys and stupid guys, rich guys and poor CM> guys. A can't really agree with that. Do you consider me stupid if I pay for a software I could crack ? I use some software that has, say a hundred or less registered users. So if you don't support it, there will be no upgrades, bug fixes etc. And another thing. If you were the manager of a big company and would know, say, very little about computers. On day you'd get a nasty irus, and of course, since we supposed you don't know much about these things, would panic. Don't you think it's worth the 50 bucks or whatever to get an experts advice (called online support) ? So I don't think everyone is stupid who pays for software. I'm off now. Daniel ... When all else fails, lower your standards. --- OMX/Blue Wave/386 v2.30 * Origin: SM_aRT's HeadQuarters, Earth Colony (2:371/20.69) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5S00006 Date: 05/22/97 From: KALMAN DANIEL Time: 03:59am \/To: COSTIN MANDA (Read 0 times) Subj: heh Is it just me? Costin Manda wrote to Kalman Daniel on 15 May 97 04:38:52 Greetings Costin ! JG>> I'm sure things are taught about it, I"m sure you've had JG>> people contribute great things to the world.. I don't know of any JG>> though. =) KD> Just think of discovering vitamin C, for instance. CM> Oh, yeah, how do you get that stuff in all the lemons? :> It's quite a difficult task, but "If you're very good, I'll show you how to do that sometime..." (Mask) Stay tuned to... Daniel ... Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity. --- OMX/Blue Wave/386 v2.30 * Origin: SM_aRT's HeadQuarters, Earth Colony (2:371/20.69) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5T00000 Date: 05/22/97 From: KALMAN DANIEL Time: 08:32pm \/To: MICHAEL LUTZ (Read 0 times) Subj: piracy ? Michael Lutz wrote to Kalman Daniel on 19 May 97 17:24:00 Good day ! KD>The difference is, that if you steal a TV, someone won't have it. If you co KD>a software, noone looses anything. ML> They lose their potential profits. Potential. That's the key word. So if I can prove that I wouldn't buy the program anyway, there is no potential profit. How can I prove it ? By erasing it if I don't like it after a trial period. Can they prove that I have run that program at least once ? KD> KD>But if I try a software (which is illegal with market releases now) KD> ML> A lot of companies offer demo programs. KD>Some do, some don't. ML> Most do, a few don't. Name one of the better companies who don't. Have you seen any Microsoft OS or OFFICE in a working DEMO ? Probably you have seen demos, but they were very different from the actual product. If they were not, they would be called beta-test versions or evaluation copies. KD> Do you real commit a crime if you erase it in say, an hour ? ML> That would be fine but the fact is most people wouldn't delete unless ML> they didn't like it. True, but why punish the others ? KD>You buy everything you use ? ML> Are you refering to software? In that case yes. Sad. I mean, there are a some programs I have to use but I don't like at all, so I don't want to support the author by paying for them. KD>I'm only saying that this trial should be free, and not considered a crime. KD>If they keep it, they do commit a crime. ML> But there is no way to enforce. Give me a way they could enforce it. Say, I'd like to try out Office 97, and not a demo but the real stuff. Why don't they let me try it at home if I sign an agreement so that they have the right to check my PC to see if I really erased it. They could punish me so much if I they found it, that it wouldn't worth. Or: if they catch someone with pirate stuff, tell him to pay for it or erase it. If they find the same stuff next time without payment, make him pay for all the stuff that was illegal on his computer. They could do this simply with companies, and I don't think people's private life should be bothered with copyright issues. It's like photocopying a page from a book in the library... it would funny if they charged for that saying the book was copyrighted. Logoff... SM_aRT ... If I'm so wrong, why can't you prove it? --- OMX/Blue Wave/386 v2.30 * Origin: SM_aRT's HeadQuarters, Earth Colony (2:371/20.69) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5U00000 Date: 05/23/97 From: JOE BOSWELL Time: 11:44pm \/To: MATT MUNSON (Read 0 times) Subj: Ok all someone tell me th -> -=> Quoting Joe Boswell to Joe Nhor <=- -> -> -> G'Day Joe! -> -> -> -> JB> thought) so that would mean more than likely 1+ years in priso -> -> JB> Charges for that higher than that of say homocide? -> -> -> -> I believe if what I remember is correct, it is a felony offence, u -> -> copyright act, punishable by a maximum 5 years imprisonment and up -> -> million dollar fine. -> -> -> -> Which is why if you do it, you'd better be damn careful not to get -> -> caught with -> -> 3-5 gigs of NPD on your system. -> -> JB> Does that strike you as a bit harsh? Heh I mean say you were -> driving -> JB> down the road, drunk as all hell and smash into some kid on the -> JB> street, how many years you think you would get? Compare that to a -> JB> them considering that with 3-5 gigs of NPD stuff would mean more -> JB> one 1 to 5 year sentence and up to a million in cash... Kinda -> JB> backwards... joe -> -> JB> -!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10 -> JB> ! Origin: The Mystic Tower BBS Santee, CA (619) 596-0271 -> JB> (1:202/330.0) -> -> -> That is true. It should be a fine of paying the software (all the -> software that -> was caught pirated. The second strike 2x the fair market value of the -> software -> then 3x, then jail. That depends, it should be more like a if your caught with it on your hard drive and your running a BBS to distribute it then it should be weighed heavier than if you just downloaded it... joe --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10 * Origin: The Mystic Tower BBS Santee, CA (619) 596-0271 (1:202/330.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5U00001 Date: 05/23/97 From: JOE BOSWELL Time: 11:48pm \/To: BRIAN CHO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Ok all someone tell me this? -> >for that higher than that of say homocide? -> >cane. -> -> Nah.. I think that the charges for someone who runs a pirate board/ft -> gets caught is like 250,000 fine, with up to 5 years in prison. One -> remember, pirated the source code for the game Blood (tklp of ROR), -> and he got sued and had tons of legal and financial trouble from -> that from the company, 3D Realms. Also, you get all your computer -> equipment taken away.. and that hurts, since these successful ftps -> and boards require expensive modems/terminals, systems, and large -> HDDs.. Well I really dont want to say for sure but the charges come close to and almost equal it seems First Degree Manslaughter charges.... Thats sad. hahah TKLP? That wouldnt be the guy that RCN was reffering to as that stupid little racist punk f**k would it? If its the same guy I would love to meet him in an alley and see who kicks the s**t out of who. I hate to get started on that crap but.... Uhhms heh yea the equipment can cost a VERY pretty penny for the type of stuff they do Inet wise these days... --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10 * Origin: The Mystic Tower BBS Santee, CA (619) 596-0271 (1:202/330.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5U00002 Date: 05/23/97 From: JOE BOSWELL Time: 11:55pm \/To: BRIAN CHO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: heh Is it just me? -> >I can't afford to buy a car. Tell me how it will affect Porche if -> I steal o >of their cars because I don't have enough money and I -> wouldn't have bought o >anyway. -> -> That's a different story, eh? First off, stealing a Porsche does hur -> someone.. specifically the owner. Stealing software hurts nobody, if -> just copy it. Taking the CD will hurt the owner, but copying it -> through the internet or just a CD burner (or diskette copier), -> doesn't hurt anyone, since nobody really loses anything.. Doesnt hurt? WTF? Say you have 100 CD's you bought for 100$ you sell 50 of them for a dollar and nobody buys anymore because they got the cd copied from theyre friend. You break even and have a bunch of cds left over, no profit so you are basically dead in the water. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10 * Origin: The Mystic Tower BBS Santee, CA (619) 596-0271 (1:202/330.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5U00003 Date: 05/23/97 From: JOE BOSWELL Time: 11:58pm \/To: CHRIS HOTTE (Read 0 times) Subj: Ok all someone tell me this? -> Wednesday May 14 1997 19:23, Brian Cho wrote to Joe Boswell: -> -> BC> Nah.. I think that the charges for someone who runs a pirate boar -> BC> and gets caught is like 250,000 fine, with up to 5 years in priso -> BC> One kid, I remember, pirated the source code for the game Blood -> (tklp BC> of ROR), and he got sued and had tons of legal and -> financial trouble -> BC> from that from the company, 3D Realms. Also, you get all your -> BC> computer equipment taken away.. and that hurts, since these succe -> BC> ftps and boards require expensive modems/terminals, systems, and -> BC> HDDs.. -> -> My question is, where do these systems go and where can I find out? W -> can I get my fingers on these things cheap?! :) -> -> -> Chris Hotte, Heh well Chris, I think all of us here would sell an arm of a leg or a grandma or two for that kinda info, but if someone would be willing to donate it? I would think they would give them away in the usual state auctions stuff.... Goto a few they sell EVERYTHING! Drug cars, houses furniture, et etc they probably have computers and I am sure you could get away with an INSANE price, AND! heh with any luck they havent deleted or formatted the HDD OR you might be able to unformat the HDD <:-0 hehe --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10 * Origin: The Mystic Tower BBS Santee, CA (619) 596-0271 (1:202/330.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5X00000 Date: 05/24/97 From: MICHAEL LUTZ Time: 09:05am \/To: KALMAN DANIEL (Read 0 times) Subj: piracy KD> KD>I told you you haven't lived here before... KD> ML> That's doesn't matter. It doesn't change whether somethings right or KD> ML> not. KD>It actually does. Would you steal a bottle of water in your corner shop ? KD>guess (and hope) not. Would you do it in a desert to save your family ? That's not a real situation. It's almost impossible for that to happen. What we're talking about happens everyday. KD> ML> The same punishment for shoplifting. KD>And whats the punishment for shoplifting where you live ? In Hungary, AFAI KD>there's an amount of money that one would have to pay in this case. (no jail It depends whether they have a record or not. The first couple of times they get away with it scott free with just having to give it back. KD> ML> Whether I think it would work or KD> ML> not is more my opoinion on how difficult we should be on children. KD>IMHO the reason behind most laws is to cinvince people to avoid those KD>situations. If a punishment does not teach, it's pointless. Exactly. But here kids don't fear the law unless they kill someone. They need to get much tougher. KD> ML> I mean the only way to enforce is to go into someones home and check. KD>Yes. And I wouldn't want any software organisation to come in my home and KD>check my PC. Besides, what would they do if I encrypted my hard disk a KD>little ? Can they prove in the US that the software they made by cracking m KD>hard disk's encryption is the same I stole ? So you're agree withing me that your idea woouldn't work? :) KD> KD> ML> People abuse return policies bad enough now. KD> KD> ML> And it's so much easier to do so much more when you consider softwa KD> KD>Well, it's solved easily here: no compulsory return policies on softwar KD> KD>Think you'd like it ? KD> ML> I'm not sure what compulsory means. KD>Compulsory means that something is in the law, that every company has to hav KD>these policies. And as I said, these laws do not exist in Hungary. Than you need to change the laws...well not *you* but you know what I mean. Ps. I know someone from Hungary. She went to Poland got an education for almost free and came here to work. She made a way fro herself. To do so she learned two more languages but she did it. * SLMR 2.1a * Adam to Eve: I'll wear the plants in this family! --- HyperMail! v1.22 * Origin: Wizard's Tower BBS, NJ (V34+) (908)-473-1933 (1:107/7010) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5Y00000 Date: 05/27/97 From: ALBERT ALCOCEBA Time: 05:10pm \/To: BRIAN CHO (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: heh Is it just me? Hi Brian! In Brian Cho's message to Albert Alcoceba on <14 May 97>, Brian Cho said: BC> That's a different story, eh? First off, stealing a Porsche does hurt BC> someone.. specifically the owner. Stealing software hurts nobody, if BC> you just copy it. Yes it does. It hurts the author and the distributor and the retailer who miss out on their royalties/commission for the software. Regards, Albert --- FMailX 1.22+ * Origin: Stormblade BBS +61-2-9545-4371 (3:712/320) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 167 NO PIRACY Ref: E5Y00001 Date: 05/27/97 From: ALBERT ALCOCEBA Time: 05:13pm \/To: MICHAEL LUTZ (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: piracy Hi Michael! In Michael Lutz's message to Kalman Daniel on <19 May 97>, Michael Lutz said: KD>> I'm only saying that this trial should be free, and not considered KD>> a crime. If they keep it, they do commit a crime. ML> But there is no way to enforce. Give me a way they could enforce it. Yep... True. Which is why some stores now offer to let you try out the software at $5 per half hour, and if you purchase it, the cost comes off the price. That's the best way to do it in my opinion. Regards, Albert --- FMailX 1.22+ * Origin: Stormblade BBS +61-2-9545-4371 (3:712/320)