--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00002 Date: 12/25/97 From: RICHARD MEIC Time: 11:14am \/To: DENNIS MENARD (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Authority [2/2] Salutatio Dennis! 24-Dec-97, Dennis Menard wrote to Richard Meic Subject: Re: Authority [2/2] DM> -[ Quoting Richard Meic <12-22-97 08:23>, to Dennis Menard ]- KK>>> I don't think this system can accept file-attach stuff, though. DM>> If one has a FIDO Zone/Net/Node address, though, files can be DM>> crash mailed. RM>> Of course, this is assuming that one has the phone # of the BBS RM>> that he/she is crashing the mail to and that the person is RM>> willing to absorb long distance charges. DM> Are you replying to Keith or me. Both of you, of course. DM> "I" am willing to crash the DM> package of files "to" Keith if he is unable to receive them any DM> other way (ie, at "my" expense ... what's a couple pennies?). DM> But, I sent them to him, via his e-mail address Monday morning. I DM> have not heard whether he's received them safely, or not, at this DM> time. Alrightythen. RM>> ------------ RM>> On a slightly different note, some people are so one dimensional RM>> that they won't admit they do not understand the uncertainty RM>> principle and therefore ignorantly believe that teleportation is RM>> possible. They further compound this by refusing to actually RM>> read up on the uncertainty principle. Then they say garbage RM>> like, "people used to say that we could never put a man on the RM>> moon", then they proceed to allude to the other person's RM>> "stupidity" while ignoring their own intellectual ineptitude. DM> The story was covered on @Discovery on the Discovery Channel. DM> And, it's my understanding that the Uncertainty Principle refers DM> to the "simultaneous" measurement of (position AND velocity) vs DM> the measurement of either - (a la Zeno's 3 Paradoxes). So, how does one create an exact copy of something? Answer, one cannot,... it is not possible. Dicere... email address (vrmeic@spots.ab.ca) Richard Meic --- Terminate 5.00/Pro * Origin: Those are my thoughts not your's... (1:134/242.7) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00003 Date: 12/25/97 From: RICHARD MEIC Time: 11:16am \/To: WILLIAM ELLIOT (Read 0 times) Subj: Tweakies Salutatio William! 24-Dec-97, William Elliot wrote to Richard Meic Subject: Tweakies >>>> Richard Meic on Faithfullessness RM>>> ... Andy-boy would at least consider that he does have a RM>>> problem. WE>> So if you avoid arguing with him, you too can be tweakie clean. RM>> I "tweak" in my own way,... I tweak, therefore I am. RM>> Hahahahaha... WE> Now if all of us tweakie birds were to drop tweakies on him do you WE> think that he would get it, how to tweak instead of twitch WE> If you rather tweak a tweakie than tweak a twit I suggest you WE> twiddle William Elliot vrs. Clarence Hogan for a real tweak Congrats! You out weirded me. Dicere... email address (vrmeic@spots.ab.ca) Richard Meic --- Terminate 5.00/Pro * Origin: Those are my thoughts not your's... (1:134/242.7) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00004 Date: 12/25/97 From: RICHARD MEIC Time: 11:18am \/To: WILLIAM ELLIOT (Read 0 times) Subj: Instant Riddle Salutatio William! 24-Dec-97, William Elliot wrote to Clarence Hogan Subject: Instant Riddle >>>> Clarence Hogan on Instant Eternal Happiness WE>> Sounds like you've been thru some ups and downs. CH>> No more so than any other, but fortunately about six of one and CH>> half a dozen of the other! :) WE> Riddle of the day: When is a half dozen more than six? Half of a "baker's dozen"? 6.5 Dicere... email address (vrmeic@spots.ab.ca) Richard Meic --- Terminate 5.00/Pro * Origin: Those are my thoughts not your's... (1:134/242.7) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00005 Date: 12/26/97 From: FRANK MASINGILL Time: 03:43am \/To: FRIEDRICH ENGELS (Read 0 times) Subj: Deep thoughts LB> Nietsche? FE> "God is dead" said Nietszche... first man to see man as the superman, FE> unguided by a god... "Democracy and Christianity weaken man" he would FE> say. Slight technical correction. "God is dead" had already been declared by Hegel, et al. Nietzsche's contribution was to avow that God had been murdered - or would be when their was courage enough for the job. This led deluded nazis and others to imagine themselves to be the "supermen" of Nietzsche's symbol which, of course, was ridiculous. Sincerely, Frank --- PPoint 2.05 * Origin: Maybe in 5,000 years - frankmas@juno.com (1:396/45.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00006 Date: 12/24/97 From: MIKE K. Time: 09:24am \/To: LOREN BERNHARDT (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Deep thoughts On 24 Dec 97 00:53, Loren Bernhardt said the following to All: LB> I would really love to meet some intellectuals on this board, anywhere for LB> that matter. If you feel qualified, or even if you don't, please respond. LB> ("I think, therefore I am") That was; "I think I am therefore I am, I think." Another way to put that is; I think not, therefore am I not? Are you looking for one who is qualified in your mind or society as a hole? To someone who is illiterate this may seem philosophical. Take your next sentence for instance. Intelect it has but It's not to philosophical though. LB> This board seems pretty dead, but there sure are a hell of a lot of differe LB> places to post on here. --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: Warlock's World *** 1:3401/11 *** 424-9643 (1:3401/11) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00007 Date: 12/25/97 From: DAVID MARTORANA Time: 06:03pm \/To: FRANK MASINGILL (Read 0 times) Subj: "Value Measures" ++> From an exchange between Frank Masingill To David Martorana ++> examining "Value measures" FM> I cannot argue with you as to what your experience is for FM> you know that better than I. Nor can I argue that reality FM> ultimately might not look like something very different from FM> that which I and other people living in the western world with FM> its symbolism and differention accumulative over centuries FM> appears to be. If there is nothing but the nihil as far as we FM> are concerned then you certainly are correct and not only has FM> the meaning evaporated we are not only dead (along with God) FM> but never were alive in the first place. Nihilism certainly was FM> a strong symbolism in the wake of "enlightenment" and as it FM> moved into Russia in the 19th century was quite strikingly FM> celebrated as the Russian novelists, like Dostievsky, so well FM> depicted. We would just have to say in such an eventuality that FM> the nihil was all there ever was in the beginning and all there FM> is in the beyond or eschatologically. Though complicated by seeming self contradictions, and the trauma of defeatism, the negative philosophies must not be denied, at very least, as part of the universal equation. We just don't know it all; and choosing the better-to-feel, may be more genetic predisposition than reasoned insight. Even Socrates showing that Protagoras' "all of importance is relative" being self defeating, only illuminates that one of "better words" might prevail over another. Of the "beyond", and mixed into "eschatology" we develop judgement insight packages ...BUT!!! these candle flickers (so far) do not translate beyond the "nihil". Myth and "positive-mind", separate, or in combination, do not an understanding make. A fatalish mixing along Protagoras, Gorgias, Dostievsky, and Nietzsche might well be a more univrsally correct image of what _LITTLE_, reality can actually mean (beyond gravity and arithmetic)! However we make of meanings, consciousness itself is our only primal reference and ALL is relative to it. The Sophists could yet win out!!! FM> Perhaps, since this is what we attribute to OUR minds we can FM> even say that this is OUR great discovery and reality has simply FM> tried to fool us into thinking something otherwise by maintaining FM> us in that cave facing the wall and disputing shadows with only FM> the FALSE impulse to turn and seek a truth of existence not filled FM> by "meaningly shadows" endlessly disputing the meaning of their FM> movements. Most move beyond the primitive "nihil" stages as perhaps one day I will also. It is essentially a base line camp that I move out from in exploration and quest. At worst it is a false premise, at best, a clean path to explore. Some of us (me) need a clean path. With the exception of atomic-ish "laws of the universe" and "numbers", nothing I've heard, read or thought about, presents more than a mix between a seeming negative "nihility" and the positive confusion of consciousness. I'm still unable to work out this awkward comraderie between such yoked enigmas. You might say I'm having some difficulty moving past ground zero on the more serious questions . FM> But, then, if such has turned out to be true why philosophize at FM> all or rather is there really anything to philosophize about. Philosophy and its many cousins of evaluation, have a good mind-feel; and has been brightened by evolution into a hungry button in our nerve system. Also? the "nothing-ish" conclusions might be in error or partly so. There are ever even third-ish possibilities that meanings may be other than "nothing" or the "somethings we have invented them to be, FM> In such a situation (if that is where human beings are) certainly FM> "God is dead" and so is the man who experiences God as his "measure." FM> In that case "history" does not have its original meaning of "man FM> in the present under God" It is simply a symbol whose meaning has FM> changed so that it now is a kind of description of "events FM> transpiring in time" as though they were meat going through a grinder FM> and becoming in their "meaninglessness" simply an empty process. FM> That is not much different, in fact, than the situation when "man is FM> the measure." In such a situation I'm not sure I wouldn't go all FM> the way and buy into Nietzsche's "eternal recurrence" so that in FM> some future turning of the wheel there would be another Plato, FM> Moses and Paul to undergo another revelation of greater luminosity FM> of reality within man and on and on ad infinitim. Faith (not religion) FM> leads me toward another view and a hope that whatever love of man FM> I have experienced is not false but it IS FAITH and not assurance FM> - of that I am completely aware. At this stage of our knowing, to think we know something is an awkward game. Faith as an insight motivator, might have a valid ring to it ....and it also _might NOT_. Being only "unsubstantial choice", it cannot really provoke, or respond to "measurement" nor compete clearly with searchable ideas. If real "in its way", it is in a class by itself? ...perhaps a "measure on another's scale" ??? then again ......perhaps not at all !!! FM> What else could I say? Not much more ....and you have said it well! !^_?!, .."Life is what happens to... _/o0"\_ ...Dave... ...us while we are making > > ...other plans..........." --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: America's favorite whine - it's your fault! (1:261/1000) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00008 Date: 12/25/97 From: DAVID MARTORANA Time: 06:04pm \/To: JOHN BOONE (Read 0 times) Subj: ..ductive reasoning.. ++> From John Boone to D. Martorana exchange on ++> ..ductive reasoning.. Hello John and thanks for writing, DM>> John! it has taken some time for me to realize DM>> why I was mixing apples and oranges in my postings DM>> to you and Charles ....that Frank was/is primarily DM>> concerned with the substance of the topic at hand; DM>> and you were/are primarily concerned with the logic DM>> grammar associated with the topic ......Frank into JB> Perhaps, however, I am unconvinced, the substance JB> holds without form, what you call logic grammar. JB> While substance is important without form it is JB> nothing. So why study, form, form allows one to JB> arrange the substance such that the conclusions JB> follow. NOT RIGHTY RIGHT: Substance can and often does function some distance from form and even when it follows close it is often automatic (a given without words). When the form is over *advertised*, it diminishes the substance to a grammar lesson. Language should rise above the language teacher. DM>> of the subject itself and how to see each organ. The DM>> idea that wordish arithmetic can produce a measured DM>> knowledge of "human VALUES" is still a bit alien to me DM>> but I monitor both yours and Charles' postings; and JB> Ah, but I don't agree with Charles. Charles and I JB> disagree. You do agree in the arena you both favor, of presenting the cleanliness of logic as superior to substance, ...substance being sloppy and stained with the gray insights of experience, a point Frank has been trying to hammer home without success for some time. I am convinced that this "two ships passing in the night" dilemma will take time to clear JB> I do agree there are "traits" which do JB> increase a societies numbers, but I fall short of JB> saying these are objective "human values." I'm not sure what you mean when you talk like that! DM>> might one day learn a bit. I do not have the "big time" DM>> faith in symbolic logic, though I might appreciate DM>> it of value in the more non humanish sciences. I had JB> Symbolic logic has brought Calculus, physics, chemistry, JB> etc. Such should give enough "faith." NOT when dealing with any measure of humanness. Here again it seems important to separate out the hard sciences and not try to correlate them with our everyday "head messin". DM> always wondered why (whether agreeing or not) Frank's DM> postings had been clear to understand and yours ever DM> a puzzle. JB> Perhaps, your puzzle rests in the fact you agree with him JB> while you don't with me. Might be some slim sliver of truth there but also I think we will sometimes agree (more) when we get past all that screechy clean "objective this" and "subjective that". Reality has a lot of mud on its shoes..and logic often needs its glasses on to see it................. _- oo ... Dave --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: America's favorite whine - it's your fault! (1:261/1000) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00009 Date: 12/25/97 From: DAVID MARTORANA Time: 06:10pm \/To: CLARENCE HOGAN (Read 0 times) Subj: Humor & Apes ++> Inspired by a complex of exchanges over time between ++> David Martorana and Clarence Hogan....... DM>> It may not be so much that we derived FROM the apes DM>> .......but that we are headed in that direction CH> David, I do believe that you have finally got it and believe CH> it or not I had confidence that a man of your means would CH> finally do just that, What means ??? and ........not that simple !!! DM>> I think some of my upsent postings were lost between DM>> 17-20 December- so I've repeated them. CH> Was it absolutely necessary? :) More than perhaps not! CH> Maybe they would have been better off "Lost in space!"... CH> Danger, Danger, Danger Will Robinson! Most likely would get a laugh in space if "someone" is listening. They would have to have one "HELL" of a sense of humor !!! In among my many confusions of quest, I entertain an irony of selected humorous moments. Some are innocent and simple, others self honed in perky jade and (self perceived) clever probes. Trying to restrain my eclectic mindswings takes some effort (as you've probably noticed . Part of me is a "kindly old fart" but there are some still crocodilian chills that help me (hopefully) think a bit more clearly. I'm not always sure **WHOMmmmmmmmmmmmmm** of me is posting. By nature I would be a "so called" artist, by vocation I WAS mostl;y (in the heyday of dinosaur main frames), a diagnostic programmer. In that type of programming you must trick a sinful computer system into telling its most private ooops! ...scheme kindly to trap its logic errors however rare they manifest .....coax it into whispering its most embarrassing defects. Does bend the mind a bit! I learned from it, a little of the art of distrust and a mite of the humor in design ....that a computer COULD do so much more wrong, so cleverly, than it could do right. Of course computers became super reliable, and now I'm just a retired ol' grandfarther! -_ oo ... Dave >> --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: America's favorite whine - it's your fault! (1:261/1000) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00010 Date: 12/25/97 From: DAVID MARTORANA Time: 06:11pm \/To: FRANK MASINGILL (Read 0 times) Subj: Prayer to atheists ++> Inspired by a Frank Masingill worldgram ++> "Prayer of Thanks" FM> For all of our atheistic friends (grin) at Christmas: FM> Thank God there isn't any. .............."isn't" there ? FM> Sincerely, FM> Grinch --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: America's favorite whine - it's your fault! (1:261/1000) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 160 PHILOSOPHY Ref: EGW00011 Date: 12/25/97 From: DAVID MARTORANA Time: 06:13pm \/To: JOHN BOONE (Read 0 times) Subj: lollipops ++> Inspired by epic John Boone insight to ++> Clarence Hogan Hello John and thanks for opportunities! JB> Anything not good is therefore evil. Only at a lollipop level. Good, like truth, always has mud on its feet ...........feet only seen clean through the rose colored glasses of kindergarten logic! ....Wishing you a real New Years reality! ;; \/cc\/ ... Dave <\_ --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: America's favorite whine - it's your fault! (1:261/1000)