--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00010 Date: 12/19/97 From: DON JAMES Time: 11:37am \/To: CARL THAMES (Read 3 times) Subj: Slang vs: pop. misusage CT>character, but not much. Dialogue can go a LONG way to defining your >character, is probably the most fun part of writing. CT>If you want to do an exercise, tell a story via dialogue. No descrition >allowed, and the story must have a beginning, middle, and end. When >you're finished, we need to know what the story was about, who was >involved, and have a good idea of the mental processes involved in >resolving it. Try it. (Tags are allowed, if used sparingly.) Very, very, interesting. Tags? define? What brought this all on, was a bit I read about Diction described below. "Diction is the choice of words for the expression of thought and feeling. A man's or woman's choice of words in not accidental, but proceeds organically from his or her own nature; Such as he or she is, such will his or her choice of words be. Listen to him or her for five minutes, or read a letter he or she has written, and you will know what manner of man or woman they are -- their breeding, their character, their outlook on life will be expressed by the particular words that he or she uses. The fiction writer, knowing this, makes each of his characters use words that are, as we say, 'in character,' words befitting the personality and social standing of the character. He or she makes one habitually say, 'I ain't,' another 'I'm not,' and another 'I am not'; one says 'good eats,' another 'good meals,' and another 'savory repasts.' There is thus a kind of fatalism in our diction: it depends upon what we are. Yet this is, fortunately, not the whole of the matter; since, in turn, what we are depends partly upon our choice of words. Resolve nevermore to say 'I aint,' and you are already, in some measure, a new man or woman: you have made both a a social and a literary advance. A man or woman who avoids all vulgar expressions cannot well remain a vulgar man or woman. Similarly, a man whose diction is growing more and more exact and expressive is at the same time growing mentally; he or she is learning to think. Diction must be viewed with respect to both correctness and effectiveness. Whereas grammar, punctuation, mechanics, and especially spelling usually deal with a right and a wrong way, an approved and a disapproved way, diction deals partly with the right and the wrong, the approved and the disapproved, and partly, also, with the effective and the ineffective, the best and the inferior. Our words must, first of all, be used correctly; this is the minimal requirement, the negative virtue of words. In addition, they should be used as effectively as possible, for they may have a positive as well as a negative virtue. Good use is the English sanctioned by the best writers and speaker. It is not the usage of people in general, but of cultivated people. In other words, the standard of good use is set by the educated classes and not by the numerical majority. There is no universal suffrage in matters of taste. More specifically, good use demands that your English be present, national, and reputable." OTOH The above would seem to infer that if your writing is impeccable in style and English -- you could have a few slobs with poor grammar in your dialogue. I guess the question might now be, how many, how much? I think a few comments so far have hit the nail on the head. I believe you may be one of those with the right hammer. Nuff said! ____ /___/ ________/_____ E | / MAIL | |____/_________| don.james@encode.com DON'S DEN Home of writer's cramp. Don * 1st 2.00 #8648 * I used to be indecisive -- but now I'm not too sure. --- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0313 * Origin: Encode Online Orillia,Ont.705-327-7629 (1:229/107) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00011 Date: 12/19/97 From: DON JAMES Time: 12:08pm \/To: BARBARA SHAFFERMAN (Read 3 times) Subj: SLANG VS: POP. MISUSAGE BS>My feelings on this are that mangled English or regional dialect, etc. >should be used very judiciously. It's fine to delineate a character or >distinguish between characters, especially when you have many people >engaged in a conversation. However, too much of it definitely stops the >easy flow of the writing and, I think, turns off the reader. I try to >avoid it whenever I can. There are so many joining this fray, and so much sage advice, yours included, that vacillation may well become the order of the day. Possibly, it should become a question of the writers style, or adeptness in dialogue, also the locale or milieu which should determine the permissiveness of ungrammatical dialogue? I'm tending to become somewhat of a Mugwump (person who sits on the fence with his or her mug on one side, and wump on the other). OTOH I'm tending to lean towards the conservative side. Politics? (Mugwump), for the moment. Possibly influenced by Rich's prohibitions. Thanks for the feedback. Have an incredibly nice day! ____ /___/ ________/_____ E | / MAIL | |____/_________| don.james@encode.com DON'S DEN Home of writer's cramp. Don * 1st 2.00 #8648 * Collective: A procrastination of writers! --- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0313 * Origin: Encode Online Orillia,Ont.705-327-7629 (1:229/107) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00012 Date: 12/18/97 From: BARBARA SHAFFERMAN Time: 07:55pm \/To: STU TURK (Read 3 times) Subj: MY NOVEL ST> Years ago there were a lot more published writers here. Some that I ST> remember are Pamela Dean, Emma Bull, Steven Brust, Joel Rosenberg, ST> John DeChancie (temporarily AWOL), and some others I can think of ST> just now (but Elvis will probably supply a list. :-) ) Problem is, ST> once they get published they drop out of Writing and FidoNet. ST> Hopefully you will stay with us once your book is out. :-) I shall stay as long as I'm welcome. I don't anticipate any life style changes and tuning into Writing before I start working on my new novel is definitely part of my everyday routine. I spoke to the publisher today and my book won't be out until early 1999, so except for some revising, I don't see where anything will change. Barbara --- * RM 1.3 03095 * barshaff@juno.com * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00013 Date: 12/19/97 From: LAURIE CAMPBELL Time: 07:05am \/To: RICH VERAA (Read 3 times) Subj: Rights or wrongs? *** Quoting Rich Veraa from a message to Michael Nellis *** RV> You're ass-uming that the state will be run by power-mongering RV> lunatics. Why would anyone come into power except that they like power? --- Telegard v3.09.g1/mL * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Vancouver, B.C. Canada (1:153/757) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00014 Date: 12/20/97 From: CAROL TIERNEY Time: 08:37am \/To: JACK RUTTAN (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: da doobi newbie -=> Quoting Jack Ruttan to Carol Tierney <=- > Yea, but what IS it?? JR> I think this means we'll use the old things, but we'll paint them JR> funny colours so that people won't think we're just copying. ---- ;) [ or something ]. Reading on this subject is reminding me of undergraduate braincrunching days. Don't often encounter "hard" things to read these days... Seems philosophers & critics like to make things obtuse. But not so much the historians, they have something more tangible to deal with; the way it was. JR> I'll spoil my one-liner by saying that in writing the equivalent is JR> using old forms, but putting in an anachronism or joke, so that the JR> reader will know you aren't taking this seriously. A version of JR> "having you cake and eating it, too." ---- Complicated. complicated. I'll take the good old straight forward. > BTW, they're still playing golf out here. Went shopping for > xmas tree lights last night, everybody had on sweaters! God > Bless el nino JR> I'm from Calgary originally. --- Really! Well, believe me, you'd never have seen anything like this before. JR> That sounds good. I'm not too unhappy with the way the snow looks JR> out here, though. ---- Goes with the season... we got a dump today, a whopper! Everything looks like xmas card. All's well, money jiggling in the malls, Carols on the radio, what more could anyone want? ;) JR> I've heard that El Nino is puttering out. Good news for those who get JR> the storms and floods because of it. --- Indeed. We've had some destructive prairie fires last few days as a result of no rain or snow since Sept. JR> ! Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) ----- Dare I ask, .... why do you live in Quebec? and SEASONS GREETINGS --- Blue Wave/Max v2.20 [NR] * Origin: RASCAL BBS [Calgary, Alberta - (403)686-2550] (1:134/122) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00015 Date: 12/20/97 From: CAROL TIERNEY Time: 08:37am \/To: DON JAMES (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: da doobi newbie -=> Quoting Don James to Carol Tierney <=- CT> ---- No, no I WANT all those kind of headaches. Honest. DJ> I used to travel coast to coast three times a year, and liked DJ> Vancouver area best. CT> ---- Don't know when you were last there, I hear its become HUGELY > expensive. I have friends on Salt Spring Islands, lurely me to move > out there.... I want the open spaces, I think. DJ> The Islands are a ferry tale. --- Ain't that the truth! DJ> You can't just get in your car and go. ---Good for the sedentary set. ;) DJ> It's a little restrictive perhaps. On the other hand when you're DJ> going through active pass on the bigger ferries they do look DJ> attractive in the summer time. I have some friends who live on an DJ> Island near Nanaimo' and they seem to like it. Great place for DJ> sailing. A sport I used to enjoy, but my fleet is now down to two DJ> canoes, one with a sail however, and an aluminum square stern. As for DJ> the open spaces, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm surprised you DJ> ended your statement with "I think." (:-) ----- (I haven't done it yet, still in the dream stage. ;) DJ> You have to be positive if you're going to make a big jump in DJ> that direction. --- Eh, how can you be positive when taking a leap into the unknown? 99% is about all I hope for. ;) I have little doubt its what I want, now, whether I can DO it, who knows. SEASONS GREETINGS --- Blue Wave/Max v2.20 [NR] * Origin: RASCAL BBS [Calgary, Alberta - (403)686-2550] (1:134/122) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00016 Date: 12/18/97 From: RICH VERAA Time: 10:03pm \/To: CHRIS KLING (Read 3 times) Subj: critiques In a message to Rich Veraa, Chris Kling wrote: CK> The first paragraph, which is where I began to lose you, was CK> something that I had added on as an afterthought. Would the story CK> be better without Trina talking with her mother at the beginning, or CK> by rectifying the confusion that you brought to my attention? Leave the mother in.... it works great with her appearance at the end. It's just the stuff about the grandfather that needs a bit of tweaking. Cheers, Rich http://www.netside.net/~rveraa/ * Origin: Birdsoft - North Miami (1:135/907) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00017 Date: 12/18/97 From: RICH VERAA Time: 10:04pm \/To: DON JAMES (Read 3 times) Subj: Slang vs: pop. misusage In a message to Michael Nellis, Don James wrote: DJ> "See youse later."..."Pretin near time to feed the horses," etc. DJ> How much of this can the average reader tolerate without losing DJ> interest. I would be interested in your thoughts on this, and also DJ> anyone else who would like to join the fray. Where, or how soon, DJ> or to what extent, should this begin or end? Would readers find DJ> this humorous, would it depend on the audience targeted by your DJ> book or article, should it be limited to one character to keep it DJ> to a minimum???? It seems to be pretty much a matter of current fashion. In the first half of the nineteenth century they did it a _lot_, and there was quite a bit of it in the early 20th -- Misther Dooley, H*y*m*a*n K*a*p*l*a*n, etc. Right now it's pretty much outr in any quantity, but who knows? It might be back in vogue in about ten years... Cheers, Rich http://www.netside.net/~rveraa/ * Origin: Birdsoft - North Miami (1:135/907) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00018 Date: 12/19/97 From: TRAFFIC V. 2.00 Time: 10:15pm \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: Traffic Report ********************************************************************* * Birdsoft Poster Record for Area: WRITING * * Messages received by BirdSoft Online (1:135/907) * * Sat, Dec 13, 1997 - Fri, Dec 19, 1997 * ********************************************************************* Posts Name Average Size Address ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 14 BARBARA SHAFFERMAN 877 1:2619/110 13 Jack Ruttan 1476 1:167/133 11 Michael Nellis 1745 1:167/133 11 Chris Kling 768 1:3629/101 10 Craig Loewen 947 1:2700/119 7 Don James 1353 1:252/305 6 Lisa Peppan 1066 1:343/236.3 6 Curtis Johnson 1194 1:261/1000 5 Rich Veraa 1075 1:135/907 4 Ralf Guminski 2688 1:2424/1420 3 Michael Tauson 1962 1:129/26 3 Barbara Haddad 1536 1:143/368 3 Vern Faulkner 597 1:340/44 2 Lynn Schriver 1280 1:3822/1 2 Carol Tierney 3072 1:134/122 2 Phil McCloud 896 1:105/38.67 2 James Walton 896 1:129/260 1 Stu Turk 1536 1:129/26.2 1 Elvis Hargrove 768 1:397/6 1 David Jacklin 2816 1:256/105 1 Laurie Campbell 1536 1:153/757 1 Jay P. Hailey 1280 1:346/49 1 TIM ESAIAS 768 1:129/260 1 Ken Wolf 1280 1:234/2 1 TRAFFIC v. 2.00 2816 1:135/907 1 Moderators 1536 1:135/907 1 ROSE 2048 1:247/101 1 Edmund Wong 768 1:153/7083 1 Lisa Philbrick 2560 1:132/229 1 dorothy reynolds 1792 1:202/711 Total = 117 by 30 authors. * Origin: Birdsoft Online, North Miami, Florida, USA (1:135/907) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 159 WRITING Ref: EGQ00019 Date: 12/19/97 From: BARBARA SHAFFERMAN Time: 07:26pm \/To: JACK RUTTAN (Read 3 times) Subj: MY NOVEL JR> I hear it's a pretty cool feeling to get that box of copies from the JR> publisher. I guess it's as close to heaven as you get. Barbara --- * RM 1.3 03095 * barshaff@juno.com * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110)